The Struggle in Javakhk

[Eddo211]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

Strategical interests has nothing to do with religion....we can't expect to depend on anyone other than ourselves when SHTF.

[Mher]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

I see you have reading comprehension problems bro. Xojaly and shushi were turning points in the war, it was down hill for azeris after that. Operation goranboy was baku's last big military push and it did not involve russian government troops but there probably was russian mercenary soldiers just like we had them also. Starting in 1992 russia began openly siding with Armenians because there was no point in keeping soviet borders. Be careful what you say about the putin the great he is the most awesome leader in the world. Armenians are not russian slaves, russians are our orthodox brothers and they will pick us over muslims any day. I suggest you keep reading history lessons and playing less with toy fedayee soldiers LOL

It's bad enough you try to use religion as some political justification, but the fact that you use it so wrong makes it so much more comical.
First of all, your whole religious argument falls apart when you consider the fact that Iran supports Armenia over the only other Shiite super majority country on earth. That alone should show you where religion ranks in the field of politics. But more importantly, your whole orthodox argument is fundamentally wrong. The Armenian Apostolic Church is not orthodox. Unlike the Russian Orthodox Church or Georgian O.C or Ukraine O.C , it is not called the Armenian Orthodox Church, but the Armenian Apostolic Church. By name it is part of the Oriental Orthodox Churches along with the: Coptic, Ethiopian, Eritrean, Syriac, and Malankara Syrian churches. However this is entirely different than what people refer to when then say Orthodox which is the Eastern Orthodox churches of the slavs and vratsis and so fort.

And again, you just contradicted yourself. You said starting in 1992, once your blessed orthodox Russian overlords came to power, Armenia started winning, and of course that contradicts the basic fact that 8 months into the year 1992 there was almost nothing of Artsakh left.

And Haykakan, youre delusional if you believe this mans views are closer to the truth than mine. Do not confuse your views with his. Where as yours is driven by some logic and pragmatic assessment, Serjik just follows some opposite day homoerotic cult of personality that has no basis on Armenian interests or reality. I don't have any ideology or predetermined mindset. I'm only driven by what is best for Armenia. If that includes latching on to Iran one day, Russia the next, and America the next, depending on how the tides shift, then be it. As long as the result is the most independent state we can have while guaranteeing some measure of national security. Serjik on the other hand just get his views from someone elses opinion and anyone who buys into this north korean style cult of personality of " the most awesome leader in the world" is beyond help. I mean is that not almost a word to word repetition of the official title of the fatboy in north korea?

Anyway, getting back on topic, its hard to believe that after 6 years after the original expected completion date this trainwreck of a project that was supposed to choke off Armenia's economy is still being delayed

http://www.silkroadreporters.com/2014/05/28/waiting-iron-silk-road-railway/

[Haykakan]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

Serjik is young and new to world politics but i think he will learn eventually that religion is a tool much like it has always been used to control people and have them kill each other. It took me some time to figure this out to. Being of the same religion does not make you friends and having different religions does not make you enemies. Interests, economics, strategic configuration, and other things define who are your friends and enemies while religion is simply one of the tools used to separate people and justify them killing each other. What i think Serjik gets and Mher and some others do not get is that even in this world of shifting interests and stratagies one fact continues to remain and that is Russia continues to be the only power who sees Armenia's existence (in any form) as its own strategic interest and has the power to maintain that status quo. Religion has little to do with it, it is simply a game of interests. The continued existence of Armenia is indeed in Russias interest but that does not mean Armenia and Russia share all interests. Russia has always played a game with its neighbors which involves keeping them weak and dependent and Armenia is included here. The reason i say we stick with Russia is because i do not see us even existing if Russia either becomes to weak or no longer considers Armenia as strategicaly important...therefore it is in our interest to have a strong Russia and to do as much nation building as possible under this situation. There is good reason and plenty precedent for one to think strong Russia will be good for Armenia. Soviet Armenia is a good example of what could be again. Good living conditions, infrastructure, security, economic and political stability.. these are the basic components of nation building and they existed in Soviet Armenia. I do have hope in the eurasian union and i do see lots of potential in it not to just return us to living conditions enjoyed by Armenians during soviet era but to far surpass them. Being a student of history teaches you many things and the most useful thing it is to not repeat past mistakes and to instead learn from them and make better decisions because of this learning. We have seen what irrational hasty nationalism did to our people with dashnaks encouraging revolt while relying on vague promises of outside powers and never securing the safety of the population. We cannot repeat such mistakes! The west is trying hard to do just that. It has organizations inside Armenia aiming to divide society and to throw Russia out of Armenia but you would be a fool if you believe this is good for Armenia because it is so easy to see that the West has no interest in Armenias existence in any form. Even after stabbing us in the back during the genocide, even after countless in you face rejections of recognizing genocide, even after cutting funding for Armenia and increasing funding to its enemies many idiots still look at the west as some kind of saviour instead of mortal enemy that it really is. This is why i say Mher you are more mislead then Serjik because he atleast is rooting for the rite side(even if not for the right reasons). I am not saying this to put Mher down but simply to explain my position. I think both Mher and Serjik are an important part of Armenian future because both young people care deeply about Armenia and her issues but like all young people both have things to learn. These young people give me reason to hope while foreign agents like Vrej show us time and again that other powerful nations are always trying to destroy using any means at their disposal and the misinformation spewed by Vrej and Lragir are prime examples of exactly this. Beware, be strong but above all show love for your fellow Armenians by including them - not excluding them, by respecting them-not making fun of them, by helping them-not by mocking them, by taking pride in their achievements-not wallowing in petty jealousy. This is how you build a nation-by caring for your fellow Armenians and doing the right things. Sure there are no guarantees, its not easy, it means breaking old habits..but it is all so much worth it!

[Vrej1915]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT4Ey2DiqL4

Սաթխա գյուղում հունիսի 1-ը կրկնակի տոն է վիդեո
02/06/14
Ջավախքի Սաթխա գյուղում հունիսի 1-ը կրկնակի տոն է: 96-ամյա գյուղի բնակիչներն այդ օրը նշում են նաեւ իրենց բնակավայրի տոնը:

Հանդիսությանը մասնակցել են նաեւ Ջավախքի մեր գործընկերները:

Մանրամասները` տեսանյութում

[Vrej1915]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

http://satkha.com/

http://satkha.rivido.de/satkha_foto.html

[londontsi]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

Serjik is young and new to world politics but i think he will learn eventually ........

I do not see that a reason for not having an opinion, nor view his opinion with tolerance.

There is no right way to think.

It is like walking in the dark hitting obstacles along the way, sometimes not pleasant, and adjusting your course.

I have been amazed with some of the opinions expressed here from some so called “old in politics”. I dare say vice versa.

[Mher]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

What i think Serjik gets and Mher and some others do not get is that even in this world of shifting interests and stratagies one fact continues to remain and that is Russia continues to be the only power who sees Armenia's existence (in any form) as its own strategic interest and has the power to maintain that status quo. Religion has little to do with it, it is simply a game of interests. The continued existence of Armenia is indeed in Russias interest but that does not mean Armenia and Russia share all interests. Russia has always played a game with its neighbors which involves keeping them weak and dependent and Armenia is included here. The reason i say we stick with Russia is because i do not see us even existing if Russia either becomes to weak or no longer considers Armenia as strategicaly important...therefore it is in our interest to have a strong Russia and to do as much nation building as possible under this situation. There is good reason and plenty precedent for one to think strong Russia will be good for Armenia. Soviet Armenia is a good example of what could be again. Good living conditions, infrastructure, security, economic and political stability.. these are the basic components of nation building and they existed in Soviet Armenia. I do have hope in the eurasian union and i do see lots of potential in it not to just return us to living conditions enjoyed by Armenians during soviet era but to far surpass them. Being a student of history teaches you many things and the most useful thing it is to not repeat past mistakes and to instead learn from them and make better decisions because of this learning. We have seen what irrational hasty nationalism did to our people with dashnaks encouraging revolt while relying on vague promises of outside powers and never securing the safety of the population. We cannot repeat such mistakes! The west is trying hard to do just that. It has organizations inside Armenia aiming to divide society and to throw Russia out of Armenia but you would be a fool if you believe this is good for Armenia because it is so easy to see that the West has no interest in Armenias existence in any form. Even after stabbing us in the back during the genocide, even after countless in you face rejections of recognizing genocide, even after cutting funding for Armenia and increasing funding to its enemies many idiots still look at the west as some kind of saviour instead of mortal enemy that it really is. This is why i say Mher you are more mislead then Serjik because he atleast is rooting for the rite side(even if not for the right reasons). I am not saying this to put Mher down but simply to explain my position. I think both Mher and Serjik are an important part of Armenian future because both young people care deeply about Armenia and her issues but like all young people both have things to learn. These young people give me reason to hope while foreign agents like Vrej show us time and again that other powerful nations are always trying to destroy using any means at their disposal and the misinformation spewed by Vrej and Lragir are prime examples of exactly this. Beware, be strong but above all show love for your fellow Armenians by including them - not excluding them, by respecting them-not making fun of them, by helping them-not by mocking them, by taking pride in their achievements-not wallowing in petty jealousy. This is how you build a nation-by caring for your fellow Armenians and doing the right things. Sure there are no guarantees, its not easy, it means breaking old habits..but it is all so much worth it!

I understand your call for pragmatism. However the view that Armenia would never survive without Russia is not realistic. After all, Switzerland survived WWII while facing multiple superpowers and using politics to avoid losing independence. For long periods of the war it was entirely surrounded by Nazi Germany and yet it never gave up its independence, never allowed foreign soldiers on its soil, and never gave in to the Nazi demands like most other countries. Ultimately is Russia important now? yes, but Russia is not some savior. Moreover it forces Armenia to pay a heavy toll for that support.

maintaining favorable relations with Russia does not mean selling our independence to Russia. You can maintain relations, hell you can join the Eurasian Union without giving up your entire national infrastructure. Soviet times might have resulted in higher living conditions, however they also meant the degradation of the national identity. Of Russian becoming a dominant language. Of Armenians being able to talk about many of their national heroes. Of Armenian heroes being executed. Of the theft of Kars, Nakhichevan and Artsakh. But even more, if Armenia wasn't facing a Soviet invasion (and a Soviet funding of the Turkish army) and only had to worry about the Turks, there is no reason to believe we couldn't have held off the Turks and Azeris and maintained an independent Armenian nation with Kars, Nakhichevan, and Artsakh.

Also I think you should be more respectful of Vrej than calling him a foreign agent. He deserves a little better than that. and I dislike Lragir as much as you, but you should know that the Open Society and George Soros are very much hated by the conservatives and newcons of America. George Soros is a liberal and his ultimate goal is not to aid some imperialist neocon masterplan, but to create democratic governments. I do believe that his ideas could be used by neocons, and regardless his ideas are hurtful to the well being of Armenia and I wish them to be gone, but that doesn't necessarily make it a tool of some western master plan.

[Artashes]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

I understand your call for pragmatism. However the view that Armenia would never survive without Russia is not realistic. After all, Switzerland survived WWII while facing multiple superpowers and using politics to avoid losing independence. For long periods of the war it was entirely surrounded by Nazi Germany and yet it never gave up its independence, never allowed foreign soldiers on its soil, and never gave in to the Nazi demands like most other countries. Ultimately is Russia important now? yes, but Russia is not some savior. Moreover it forces Armenia to pay a heavy toll for that support.

maintaining favorable relations with Russia does not mean selling our independence to Russia. You can maintain relations, hell you can join the Eurasian Union without giving up your entire national infrastructure. Soviet times might have resulted in higher living conditions, however they also meant the degradation of the national identity. Of Russian becoming a dominant language. Of Armenians being able to talk about many of their national heroes. Of Armenian heroes being executed. Of the theft of Kars, Nakhichevan and Artsakh. But even more, if Armenia wasn't facing a Soviet invasion (and a Soviet funding of the Turkish army) and only had to worry about the Turks, there is no reason to believe we couldn't have held off the Turks and Azeris and maintained an independent Armenian nation with Kars, Nakhichevan, and Artsakh.

Also I think you should be more respectful of Vrej than calling him a foreign agent. He deserves a little better than that. and I dislike Lragir as much as you, but you should know that the Open Society and George Soros are very much hated by the conservatives and newcons of America. George Soros is a liberal and his ultimate goal is not to aid some imperialist neocon masterplan, but to create democratic governments. I do believe that his ideas could be used by neocons, and regardless his ideas are hurtful to the well being of Armenia and I wish them to be gone, but that doesn't necessarily make it a tool of some western master plan.

Couldn't agree more.
Even though Russia seems to be our only friend, that "friendship" is too much of a mixed bag with too many --- unfriendly --- deeds.
We do what we have to but lets not confuse that with Russia being our ?savior? (lol).
Again, Vrej may not agree with certain points of view, but that don't make him a traitor or a dummy.
When I've read Vrej's posts, I see a concerned citizen, whether he agrees with me or not. Vrej is the only one (I think) that I've seen post about the waters and invironment of Hayastan and help bring us up to speed on the national and world import of such. That's only two of many timely and important issues he's brought up.
Thanks Vrej.
Ok, we all get angry sometime and call names, but, we know presenting our arguments with facts and figures and reasoning is more appropriate and the mature thing do do.
We as Armenians need to come together and not tear ourselves apart.
I read virtually everyone's posts looking for the merit that it might contain.
We as Armenians don't have many good choices right now or for quite some time.
We need to keep searching for the common good --- TOGETHER ---.
Otherwise, we are divided.
That can't be good.

[Haykakan]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

Mher your post is again full of misconceptions which consistently display that you like Serjik still have much to learn about the world you live in. A great example of such extreme misconception is your comparison of Switzerland to Armenia. Putting aside countless other differences lets talk about a couple that alone kill any argument for similarity. The Swiss were not surrounded by muslim kurds and turcks who were easily aroused by religious justification to slaughter us. Swtzerland was not preventing Germany from achieving its dream of the third reich while Armenia was very much in the way of panturkism. Comparisons like these remind me of an uneducated friend of mine who could not understand why Armenia cannot be as successful as America...
You consistently refuse to understand (along with so many others) that Armenia is not and can not be sovereign and independent today. A country that cannot protect itself cannot be independent. You villify Russia for acting in its own interest yet that is exactly what you want Armenia to do(hypocrisy). I have never called Russia a savior but like Vrej you seem to not have any issues with putting words into my mouth. Russia acts out of self interest and the existence of Armenia is in its self interest and i cannot say that about any other power capable of securing Armenia. This is simply a cold hard fact which many here seem unable to understand. This does not mean that It is in Russias interest to strengthen Armenia nor to recognize Kharabagh as hers. I think Serj has done far more then i thought he could in playing west vs Russia but when it comes down to it he knows which side will secure Armenia. He tried getting security guarantees from the west but there were non offered. Many Armenians refuse to accept the fact that they along with Armenia are too insignificant for the west to help them let alone guarantee security. The west proves its antiarmenian stance over and over again yet many Armenians still drool over what will not happen. Russia is the only option not because i want her to be so but because that is what the facts on the ground dictate.
Respectful of Vrej you say? Well i say hell no! I do not care that he spews offences at me and appearently you do not either since you only notice one side being offencive here. I will not be respectful to Vrej because it was idiots like him who brought the genocide upon us and will surely do it again not because they want to kill Armenia but because they are too stupid to see that that is exactly what they are doing. I will not sit silent while morons destroy my people and country yet again! If you do not understand your own limitations then you will always be the fool on the losing end. Vrej himself admits that Lragir is xxxxty source of news yet he spews it all over this forum and no one other then me seems to be asking WHY?
Neocons vs liberals..i see you fall prey to this illusion which does not surprise me because most people do. The whole right vs left war is an illusion created by the elites to further divide society and distract it from the real problems it faces. So long as you are looking at right vs left you will stay oblivious to the real problems facing you. Both the right and the left are controlled by the same elites and it is about time people get this simple fact. Soros and the neocons are trying to do the same thing yet because you are so blinded by the whole right vs left crap you do not see it.
Finely your Soviet vs Empty Armenia argument. O wait i think i just made my point didnt i The fact that people who are well off, having good jobs, having good standard of living(definite minority) are still looking to get out shows you that they have no faith in the countries future today. Mass exodus, low birth rate, low economic opportunities, lowered levels of education, constant threat of war and innihalation all lead to the death of a state yet you seem to imply that this is somehow better.
Mher i do not mean to single you out but as you can see you are full of misconceptions yet i consider you as one of the more open minded people on this forum when it comes to realizing the reality that surrounds you. You are full of misconceptions yet when you see the facts in front of you unlike most others you do not dismiss them. It is important to replace misconceptions with facts if you are to have any hope of succeeding at pretty much anything.

[Vrej1915]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

Mher your post is again full of misconceptions which consistently display that you like Serjik still have much to learn about the world you live in. A great example of such extreme misconception is your comparison of Switzerland to Armenia. Putting aside countless other differences lets talk about a couple that alone kill any argument for similarity. The Swiss were not surrounded by muslim kurds and turcks who were easily aroused by religious justification to slaughter us. Swtzerland was not preventing Germany from achieving its dream of the third reich while Armenia was very much in the way of panturkism. Comparisons like these remind me of an uneducated friend of mine who could not understand why Armenia cannot be as successful as America...
You consistently refuse to understand (along with so many others) that Armenia is not and can not be sovereign and independent today. A country that cannot protect itself cannot be independent. You villify Russia for acting in its own interest yet that is exactly what you want Armenia to do(hypocrisy). I have never called Russia a savior but like Vrej you seem to not have any issues with putting words into my mouth. Russia acts out of self interest and the existence of Armenia is in its self interest and i cannot say that about any other power capable of securing Armenia. This is simply a cold hard fact which many here seem unable to understand. This does not mean that It is in Russias interest to strengthen Armenia nor to recognize Kharabagh as hers. I think Serj has done far more then i thought he could in playing west vs Russia but when it comes down to it he knows which side will secure Armenia. He tried getting security guarantees from the west but there were non offered. Many Armenians refuse to accept the fact that they along with Armenia are too insignificant for the west to help them let alone guarantee security. The west proves its antiarmenian stance over and over again yet many Armenians still drool over what will not happen. Russia is the only option not because i want her to be so but because that is what the facts on the ground dictate.
Respectful of Vrej you say? Well i say hell no! I do not care that he spews offences at me and appearently you do not either since you only notice one side being offencive here. I will not be respectful to Vrej because it was idiots like him who brought the genocide upon us and will surely do it again not because they want to kill Armenia but because they are too stupid to see that that is exactly what they are doing. I will not sit silent while morons destroy my people and country yet again! If you do not understand your own limitations then you will always be the fool on the losing end. Vrej himself admits that Lragir is xxxxty source of news yet he spews it all over this forum and no one other then me seems to be asking WHY?
Neocons vs liberals..i see you fall prey to this illusion which does not surprise me because most people do. The whole right vs left war is an illusion created by the elites to further divide society and distract it from the real problems it faces. So long as you are looking at right vs left you will stay oblivious to the real problems facing you. Both the right and the left are controlled by the same elites and it is about time people get this simple fact. Soros and the neocons are trying to do the same thing yet because you are so blinded by the whole right vs left crap you do not see it.
Finely your Soviet vs Empty Armenia argument. O wait i think i just made my point didnt i The fact that people who are well off, having good jobs, having good standard of living(definite minority) are still looking to get out shows you that they have no faith in the countries future today. Mass exodus, low birth rate, low economic opportunities, lowered levels of education, constant threat of war and innihalation all lead to the death of a state yet you seem to imply that this is somehow better.
Mher i do not mean to single you out but as you can see you are full of misconceptions yet i consider you as one of the more open minded people on this forum when it comes to realizing the reality that surrounds you. You are full of misconceptions yet when you see the facts in front of you unlike most others you do not dismiss them. It is important to replace misconceptions with facts if you are to have any hope of succeeding at pretty much anything.

Ay zaramyal bidzug, hamerutiuness hadav ko hed.
Hamatzaynel eyink vor im anune tcheyir dalu, paytz amen mi krutianet metch intz ess nchum....
Pan uness asselu, assa nyuteri massin.
Brdzetzeru, gam al arten yess ko hed ko lezvov bidi khossem....
Meg el hayelu metch lav naye kez, amen mi ankam esh esh turss dalutz aratch.

Now to sum up the motto of this 'russian pundit' (his words ):
1- We can't be independent, and we must accept it. POINT.
2- We must give our lands. (Lands he never saw, he has no idea bout....).
3- Go back into neo-USSR, and life standards will go better: this last argument is the most ridiculous, for someone who claims to teach guess what?? ECONOMICS!!!!!!!!
4- Amazingly, the one who claims to have understood history, is the exact Xerox of the UNEDUCATED elites we had 100 years ago, since he is just as educated. And this absence of basic conceptions of geopolitics did end in Genocide..., and more so, loss of 95% of the country.
Now, after a century, we manage, in unseen sacrifices, to bring back, 2, or 3% of the lost land, and yet he wants to give it, since Russia says so...

Now, once again, I wish, this is my last post concerning this brand (haykakan is a brand, not a name ).
I will not mention him.
Let him be kind, and respect his word, stop mentioning me in every single post he can type....

Rules of the game:
1- Stick to the Content.
2- If you have a problem with the Contender, be kind and well educated, go to:

http://forum.hyeclub.com/showthread.php/20464-Which-Media-outlet-is-allowed-to-read

3- When unhappy about what you read, before reacting, You have permission to use your mind.
4- If you have an objection, respect rule N 1.