The Struggle in Javakhk

[Mher]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

O i dont know about "highly unlikely". One way or another Armenia will have direct border with cu(soon to be EU) country. The changing of the borders is a process taking years just look around in the region and you see abkhazia, ossetia, kharabagh, trans(*^*whatever its called..there is no reason to assume these will be the only changes. There is also the possibility of current nations changing sides to.

the issues with Azerbaijan will be around for a while. As long as that issue is not permanently resolved, there is no way a second conflict can be launched. I also do not foresee some Russian intervention because that would still require Armenian participation and again Armenia just can't do that. There is too many reasons, but most of the all the simple fact that we don't have the manpower to defend our borders in such a situation.

[Haykakan]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

the issues with Azerbaijan will be around for a while. As long as that issue is not permanently resolved, there is no way a second conflict can be launched. I also do not foresee some Russian intervention because that would still require Armenian participation and again Armenia just can't do that. There is too many reasons, but most of the all the simple fact that we don't have the manpower to defend our borders in such a situation.

Our ability to defend or not to has nothing to do with it Mher jan. We were not able to defend ourselves against Turkey yet we fought and won the Kharabagh war. You think we would have won if Russia did not secure our western border? I hope a conflict with Georgia will not be needed but i can easily see one developing if USA and Russia continue their stupid fight which is mainly the fault of the USA.

[Mher]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

Our ability to defend or not to has nothing to do with it Mher jan. We were not able to defend ourselves against Turkey yet we fought and won the Kharabagh war. You think we would have won if Russia did not secure our western border? I hope a conflict with Georgia will not be needed but i can easily see one developing if USA and Russia continue their stupid fight which is mainly the fault of the USA.

Armenia won in Artsakh in spite of Russia, not because of it, and saying so otherwise is disservice to the men who overcame those unreal odds fighting outgunned and outmanned for victory. Plenty of Armenian heroes died at the hands of the Russians in Artsakh. Getashen was lost at the hands of the Russians. I know you favor relations with Russia and that's understandable, and today Russia does it's share of good (with bad) for Armenia, but lets not disrespect our fedayees and feed Azeri propaganda by pretending Russia had anything to do with Armenia winning.

During the war, a significant part of Armenian military equipment was kept on the Turkish border and not used in Artsakh because of the very fact that Turkey was able to invade

Russians manning the Turkish border today would be quiet different that them taking part in active warfare and subsequently participating in defending a hostile border.

[Haykakan]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

Armenia won in Artsakh in spite of Russia, not because of it, and saying so otherwise is disservice to the men who overcame those unreal odds fighting outgunned and outmanned for victory. Plenty of Armenian heroes died at the hands of the Russians in Artsakh. Getashen was lost at the hands of the Russians. I know you favor relations with Russia and that's understandable, and today Russia does it's share of good (with bad) for Armenia, but lets not disrespect our fedayees and feed Azeri propaganda by pretending Russia had anything to do with Armenia winning.

During the war, a significant part of Armenian military equipment was kept on the Turkish border and not used in Artsakh because of the very fact that Turkey was able to invade

Russians manning the Turkish border today would be quiet different that them taking part in active warfare and subsequently participating in defending a hostile border.

Believe what you like Mher. You seem to be making the same mistake others make in ignoring the 70-80million lb guerrilla in the room. This could be because of no relations for so long but Turkey cannot be ignored. There is a reason why it has not finished off the genocide and that reason has little to do with Armenians. If not for Russian troops at our western border the heroes of kharabagh along with everyone else in kharabagh and Armenia would be either dead or collecting wellfair in LALA land. If anyone thinks we can fight off the turk to our west you are dreaming let alone both turks to our west and east. I can see a scenario with a resolution to kharabagh conflict coming soon because it may be in the interest of the powers of the region and it is they who decide these things regardless of any illusions armenians or azeris may have. It is very possible to see russian border gaurds in our east once a settlement is reached and then to repeat a kharabagh scenario in Javakh. I am not saying that i favor such a scenario but if Georgia keeps crawling up turkish but then we and russia may have little choice in this matter.

[Mher]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

Believe what you like Mher. You seem to be making the same mistake others make in ignoring the 70-80million lb guerrilla in the room. This could be because of no relations for so long but Turkey cannot be ignored. There is a reason why it has not finished off the genocide and that reason has little to do with Armenians. If not for Russian troops at our western border the heroes of kharabagh along with everyone else in kharabagh and Armenia would be either dead or collecting wellfair in LALA land. If anyone thinks we can fight off the turk to our west you are dreaming let alone both turks to our west and east. I can see a scenario with a resolution to kharabagh conflict coming soon because it may be in the interest of the powers of the region and it is they who decide these things regardless of any illusions armenians or azeris may have. It is very possible to see russian border gaurds in our east once a settlement is reached and then to repeat a kharabagh scenario in Javakh. I am not saying that i favor such a scenario but if Georgia keeps crawling up turkish but then we and russia may have little choice in this matter.

I understand what you are saying in the present regarding Russia and the Turkish border. I also understand that in the latter stages of the fighting they helped in some way in preventing a Turkish invasion once Armenia had started to turn the momentum against the Azeris. However, you should in general refrain from saying Russia supported Armenia in anyway in the war, even if it had nothing to do with the fighting. Because the sorry ass Azeris translate that to the Russians participated in the actual fighting for us and were the reason for victory. Moroever, this ignores the very real fact that Russia caused significant damage to our cause in the early years of the war. Russia did not start supporting Armenia after Armenia had already turned a corner in the war and started winning. If the war had continued the way in was going up to spring of 92, Armenia would have lost Artsakh and maybe Syunik and Russia would not have blinked an eye. The only reason there was a Turkish border to protect was after Monte entered Karvajar in Spring of 93 which is when the Turks began threatening getting involved in the war.

[Serjik]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

Sorry to butt in to teach you a history lesson bro but before the SU fell soviets had one political calculation and after the SU fell the new Russian federation had a new political calculation for the kavkaz. Thats why before 1991 Armenians were on the loosing side and after 1991 Armenians began winning. When as xojaly and shushi liberated, 1992. When did Armenians get all their modern weaponry like SAMs and tanks, starting 1992. From where, Russia. I am also proud of our jan fedayees that fought turks like lions but I have the brains to realize that they did not do what they did in vacuum. As soon as the SU was no more Moscow began supporting us by giving us experts, weapons and protecting the western border. This is something I only understood recently so I forgive you for your lack of knowledge. Pride is good as long as you don't overestimate your power, man for man Armenians are better than Azeris but without modern weapons, intel and experts we wouldnt last very long in NKR. Its a big danger to think too highly of yourself cuz that will get in serious trouble with the big boys on the block LOL

I understand what you are saying in the present regarding Russia and the Turkish border. I also understand that in the latter stages of the fighting they helped in some way in preventing a Turkish invasion once Armenia had started to turn the momentum against the Azeris. However, you should in general refrain from saying Russia supported Armenia in anyway in the war, even if it had nothing to do with the fighting. Because the sorry ass Azeris translate that to the Russians participated in the actual fighting for us and were the reason for victory. Moroever, this ignores the very real fact that Russia caused significant damage to our cause in the early years of the war. Russia did not start supporting Armenia after Armenia had already turned a corner in the war and started winning. If the war had continued the way in was going up to spring of 92, Armenia would have lost Artsakh and maybe Syunik and Russia would not have blinked an eye. The only reason there was a Turkish border to protect was after Monte entered Karvajar in Spring of 93 which is when the Turks began threatening getting involved in the war.

[Mher]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

Sorry to butt in to teach you a history lesson bro but before the SU fell soviets had one political calculation and after the SU fell the new Russian federation had a new political calculation for the kavkaz. Thats why before 1991 Armenians were on the loosing side and after 1991 Armenians began winning. When as xojaly and shushi liberated, 1992. When did Armenians get all their modern weaponry like SAMs and tanks, starting 1992. From where, Russia. I am also proud of our jan fedayees that fought turks like lions but I have the brains to realize that they did not do what they did in vacuum. As soon as the SU was no more Moscow began supporting us by giving us experts, weapons and protecting the western border. This is something I only understood recently so I forgive you for your lack of knowledge. Pride is good as long as you don't overestimate your power, man for man Armenians are better than Azeris but without modern weapons, intel and experts we wouldnt last very long in NKR. Its a big danger to think too highly of yourself cuz that will get in serious trouble with the big boys on the block LOL

you guys are just sad with your enslavement to mother Russia. You would literally be willing to make Armenia a province of Russia if it suited papa putin. I'm glad you don't live in Armenia and this mentality only exists in the theoretical world in the Diaspora. Your obsession with Russia and Putin is frightening, and how fast you would be willing to sell out Armenia if it suited Russia.

Here's a little history lesson for .....
There are plenty of operations that the dear old Russia federation led in 1992 against Armenians and killed Armenian soldiers and Armenian heroes. Armenia didn't start winning in 1991 when your fatherland Russia came to being. Hell Armenia didn't even start winning in after Khojaly, or Shushi, or Lachin. In August of 1992 Armenia had lost more than half of NKAO after Operation Goranboy. Much of the government of Artsakh resigned and it looked like it would be all over soon. This was in August of 1992. August of 1992. Way after your fatherland had come into being. Well after the Russian Federation was arming and training the Azeris and helping in killing our heroes.

So I'm sorry to put a dent in your fatherland Russia narrative. Armenia won the war in spite of Russians killing Armenian soldiers, not because of it.

[Serjik]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

I see you have reading comprehension problems bro. Xojaly and shushi were turning points in the war, it was down hill for azeris after that. Operation goranboy was baku's last big military push and it did not involve russian government troops but there probably was russian mercenary soldiers just like we had them also. Starting in 1992 russia began openly siding with Armenians because there was no point in keeping soviet borders. Be careful what you say about the putin the great he is the most awesome leader in the world. Armenians are not russian slaves, russians are our orthodox brothers and they will pick us over muslims any day. I suggest you keep reading history lessons and playing less with toy fedayee soldiers LOL

you guys are just sad with your enslavement to mother Russia. You would literally be willing to make Armenia a province of Russia if it suited papa putin. I'm glad you don't live in Armenia and this mentality only exists in the theoretical world in the Diaspora. Your obsession with Russia and Putin is frightening, and how fast you would be willing to sell out Armenia if it suited Russia.

Here's a little history lesson for .....
There are plenty of operations that the dear old Russia federation led in 1992 against Armenians and killed Armenian soldiers and Armenian heroes. Armenia didn't start winning in 1991 when your fatherland Russia came to being. Hell Armenia didn't even start winning in after Khojaly, or Shushi, or Lachin. In August of 1992 Armenia had lost more than half of NKAO after Operation Goranboy. Much of the government of Artsakh resigned and it looked like it would be all over soon. This was in August of 1992. August of 1992. Way after your fatherland had come into being. Well after the Russian Federation was arming and training the Azeris and helping in killing our heroes.

So I'm sorry to put a dent in your fatherland Russia narrative. Armenia won the war in spite of Russians killing Armenian soldiers, not because of it.

[Haykakan]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

I think the truth is somewhere in between Mher and Serjik (Serjik is a bit closer to it). I think you guys have drifted off topic.

[londontsi]

Re: The Struggle in Javakhk

... russians are our orthodox brothers and they will pick us over muslims any day....

As far as I am concerned the minute you bring in religion in these matters your have blown your argument out of the water.

Even brothers will fight for their strategic advantage. Look at Ukraine.

The only time religion comes into play is when both sides believe they will end up in paradise after death.
Preferably with seventy virgins .... or thereabouts !!

We are not in the middle ages.


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