Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

[Haykakan]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

"I didn't feel that when I was in Montreal the day Shushi was liberated."
Yeh sure it is easy to be a bandwagon fan but what did those people do to help in that war or for any other cause? I see many examples of the shishkabab eating bandwagon jumpers Lampron was talking about earlier-they are all around me. A few people were sending medicine some even weapons but that war was nothing more then a curious spectator sport for most of the diasporans who would check in once in a while to see if their team won or lost.

[hagopn]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I have not been able to pin it down so easily. Armenians number in the millions, and I have had the privilege of meeting only a few thousand in my lifetime and knowing well a few dozen. I can't say that most can be so easily dismissed as "shish kebab eaters". I truly don't believe that it was a curious spectator sport for a good many of these people. I worked with expats during the initial phases of the Artsakh war, and these folks were absolutely locked into the situation over there, some to the point of obsession. I remember twin brothers, Armen and Arsen, classmates of mine, who eventually went to Artsakh in 1991 voluntarily, and they were born in Los Angeles. I don't know statistics, numbers, percentages. Perhaps you're the one who's correct, but my experience doesn't let me judge things so easily. I have seen the cynical sort as well, the party speechifying sort who in turn has Turkish television subscription and a large Zaki Muran collection. Certainly. I have seen the immoral priest, but I have also seen the dedicated Kahanas.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Այնպես չէ, որ ՌԴ-ն ՀՀ-ին «անվճար ծառայություններ է մատուցում»
19 Սեպտեմբերի 2013 -

http://haynews.am/hy/1379586036

Պաշտպանության նախարար Սեյրան Օհանյանը ուսանողների հետ հանդիպման ժամանակ հայտարարեց, որ «առանց Ռուսաստանի Հայաստանի համար դժվար կլինի ապահովել իր անվտանգությունը, երբ մենք ունենք Ադրբեջանի և Թուրքիայի նման հարևաններ, երբ Ադրբեջանն իր սպառազինությունն ավելի ու ավելի հարձակողական է դարձնում»:
Մյուս կողմից, հասարակությունը մտահոգություն ունի այն հարցում, որ Ադրբեջանին զենք մատակարարող Ռուսաստանը չի կարող անվտանգության տեսնակյունից լուրջ հենարան լինել Հայաստանի համար:
Սակայն այսօր որպես փաստ ունենք մի փաստաթուղթ, երբ ՌԴ-ն Հայաստանի ու Ռուսաստանի միջև կնքված պայմանգրի համաձայն՝ պարտավորվում է ապահովել Հայաստանի անվտանգությունը ոչ միայն հայ-թուրքական և հայ-իրանական սահմանին, այլև առավել մեծ սպառնալիք ներկայացնող հայ-ադրբեջանական ճակատում:
Իսկապես մտահոգիչ է, որ Ադրբեջանը նման ծավալների գնումներ է կատարում ՌԴ-ից, սակայն առավել մտահոգիչ է այն, որ Ադրբեջանը ռազմական ծախսերի համար նման մեծ գումարներ է նախատեսում, ևնույնիսկ Ռուսաստանի կողմից էմբարգոյի կիրառման դեպքում` Ադրբեջանին այլ աղբյուրներից գնումներ կատարելու հնարավորություն կընձեռվի:
Վերջին շրջանում «անվտանգության բաղադրիչ, անվտանգության գործոն» հասկացությունները դիտարկվում են ոչ միայն ՌԴ-ի կողմից Ադրբեջանին սպառազինության վաճառքի, այլև` Հայաստան-Մաքսային միություն համատեքստում, ինչը առիթ է տալիս ևս մեկ անգամ հետ նայելու ու փորձելու պատասխանել հետևյալ հարցադրմանը. «Արդյոք Հայաստանը անվտանգության առումով այլ ընտրություն ունի՞ (կամ ուներ) և արդյոք ՀՀ Զինված ուժերը, շրջափակման պայմաններում, Թուրքիայի և Ադրբեջանի հետ լարված հարաբերությունների ֆոնին, ի վիճակի՞ են լիարժեքորեն ապահովել հայ-թուրքական և հայ-ադրբեջանական սահմանների անվտանգությունը»:

Պետք է խոստովանել, որ անվտանգության առումով, այլընտրանք այս պահին Հայաստանը չունի. ո՛չ ԵՄ-ն, ո՛չ ԱՄՆ-ն և ո՛չ էլ մեկ այլ աշխարհաքաղաքական կենտրոն Հայաստանին, անվտանգության առումով այլընտրանք չի առաջարկել: Իսկ սա նշանակում է, որ Հայաստանը ոչ միայն ընտրության հնարավորություն չունի, այլև պետք է անընդհատ խորացնի իր հարաբերությունները ՀԱՊԿ-ի ու ՌԴ-ի հետ:

Մեկ դիտարկում ևս. պետք չէ վերլուծություններն ու գնահատականները ներկայացնել բացառապես Հայաստանի հետաքրքրությունների ու շահերի համատեքստում: ՌԴ-ն ևս ընդգծված շահեր ունի Հարավային Կովկասում և մասնավորապես Հայաստանում: Հայաստան-Ռուսաստան փոխհարաբերությունների հիմքում երկուստեք շահերն են և դրանք մեկը մեկին իրենց կարևորությամբ չեն զիջում: Եվ այնպես չէ, որ Ռուսաստանը Հայաստանի համար «անվճար ծառայություններ է մատուցում»: Ռուսաստանի ներկայությունը Հայաստանում բխում է իր իսկ շահերից և նա ևս ամեն ինչ անելու է այդ կապերի առավել ամրապնդման համար:

Փորձագետ Տիգրան Աբրահամյան

HayNews.am

[hagopn]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I imagine the French at that time (and especially after seeing so many French dead during WW1) would be thinking it was certainly not worth a single Frenchman being killed for (though many actually did die in Cilicia).

They have has always amused me, these people like Hagopn. They seem to expect the nations of the world to act in Armenia's interest out of nothing but the goodness of those nations' hearts, while all the time spewing out insults and race hate against those very same countries they expect selfless help to come from.

This fellow only sees stupidity and hypocrisy in Armenians and twists every comment that exposes Europoid hypocrisy. Fascinating. I think that's why MosJan banned this fellow, as I recall.

"The Amusing People" certainly do not have any such expectations. The Ayntab Armenians certainly did not have such illusions when they imprisoned the French troops, confiscated their weapons, and defended themselves against Kemalist forces.

The French, in their turn, deployed troops, giving the impression that they were somehow guaranteeing the security at least temporarily, but left their posts at night when the Armenians were asleep. I wonder why that doesn't seem to bother this fellow?

[hagopn]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

if you have faith in yourself, and in those around you and your leaders, being 'abandoned' should not mean the end of the world

it is the slave that depends 100% on his master

why did France do that?

diplomacy is not about charity

could it be that the French did not trust people who had dedicated themselves to shish-kebab eating?

Agreed on the definition of diplomacy, and I am the last person who would advocate reliance, especially at the psychological level, on "powers." However, it is beyond hypocrisy and unacceptable to give the illusion of security while plotting to abandon. The French should have given notice to the Armenians that they would be leaving, at least giving the Armenians the option of procuring their weapons. The Ayntab Armenians, upon discovering the actual intentions of the French, actually confiscated their weapons and survived for the most part. Apparently it wasn't the end of the world for them, but the cards were stacked against them since the 1840s at least, due to the "blundering dependency" paradigm that you (and I) dislike.

Now, if you want to discuss the actual beginnings of the overall fatalistic attitude of depending on foreign powers, do not use the absolutely hypocritical French actions as the example. Use older examples, such as the fiasco in Aygestan in the 1890s. There is a yet to be published series of interviews done in the 1970s that I helped digitize and transcribe for the Armenian Studies chair at the UCLA that makes it evident as to why the Armenakan project failed and why we didn't organize as well as, say, the Bulgarians.

You should read Grigor Artsruni extensively. You will see someone you'd readily agree with. "The European powers do not owe anything to us, nor are they defenders of the Christian faith. All they know is what their financial and business elite do: Interests." he was financing the Armenakan movement which was founded by Mgrdich Portukalian but really expanded by Armen Yergarian. We wrongly link the Ramgavar party to this movement. Nothing could be further form the truth. The very nature, core, of the Armenakan movement was preparation of the population, the concentration of Armenian intellectuals and power in Van instead of Constantinople/Tiflis/Baku/Moscow, and stockpiling of weapons in underground depots.

Again, this was the movement that was totally focused on self-reliance. So what happened? To quote Artsruni, "The spoiled brats with their European sosos [girlfriends] and their socialist education imported into a world that will only die of the socialist fever." Was he wrong?

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

if you have faith in yourself, and in those around you and your leaders, being 'abandoned' should not mean the end of the world

it is the slave that depends 100% on his master

why did France do that?

diplomacy is not about charity

could it be that the French did not trust people who had dedicated themselves to shish-kebab eating?

Slaves, Mr lampron, don't start a rebellion that causes the collapse of an empire, like USSR. They don't fight soviet and Azery army with hunting rifles and win the war.
Any nation in blockade and facing enemies 35 times more in numbers, will seek allies and additional protection if in right mind.
Whom am I saying this? LOL
As far as I can tell even turks can come in here and post what you've posted.

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Now THAT is a flat and uninformed shallow opinion!

Ha bell?something is still hurting?

[gegev]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

I have not been able to pin it down so easily. Armenians number in the millions, and I have had the privilege of meeting only a few thousand in my lifetime and knowing well a few dozen. I can't say that most can be so easily dismissed as "shish kebab eaters". I truly don't believe that it was a curious spectator sport for a good many of these people. I worked with expats during the initial phases of the Artsakh war, and these folks were absolutely locked into the situation over there, some to the point of obsession. I remember twin brothers, Armen and Arsen, classmates of mine, who eventually went to Artsakh in 1991 voluntarily, and they were born in Los Angeles. I don't know statistics, numbers, percentages. Perhaps you're the one who's correct, but my experience doesn't let me judge things so easily. I have seen the cynical sort as well, the party speechifying sort who in turn has Turkish television subscription and a large Zaki Muran collection. Certainly. I have seen the immoral priest, but I have also seen the dedicated Kahanas.

Hakob you are right, we Armenians have plenty of reasons to be proud of our brave nation’s recent (and past) history. This is why Azeries can’t stop crying for quarter a century, after their crashing defeat in Artsakh battlefields, where they looked like lambs, as opposed to their “wolf” image they tried to create for themselves. They acted like “wolfs” only when butchered unarmed Armenians.

We ALL Armenia based and DIASPORA Armenians are proud of being Armenians and still unified, our recent defeats on the political scene are temporary and minor events, compared to what Azeries faced. We have slaves, but they can’t outnumber the rest.

Where is life, there is hope!

[Hakob]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Hakob you are right, we Armenians have plenty of reasons to be proud of our brave nation�s recent (and past) history. This is why Azeries can�t stop crying for quarter a century, after their crashing defeat in Artsakh battlefields, where they looked like lambs, as opposed to their �wolf� image they tried to create for themselves. They acted like �wolfs� only when they butchered unarmed Armenians.

We ALL Armenia based and DIASPORA Armenians are proud of being Armenians and still unified, our recent defeats on the political scene are temporary and minor events, compared to what Azeries faced. We have slaves, but they can�t outnumber the rest.

Where is life, there is hope!

Thanks Gegev.
I think we are no better or worse then other nations (though definitely better then some of our neighbours). We just had to deal with too many historical catastrophies.
When some people compare us with belgians or some other europeans in negative , I wonder if they know just a little bit of history. Most europeans never dealt with arab, persian, seljuk, monghol, turk invaders. With repeated jihads and like in which your enemy's armies were reinforced by people from egipt to afganistan.
While belgians and like have been surrounded with other nations that share the same values in peace or war, we have been trying to cling to a piece of land as christians in a sea of muslims for more than 800 years.
Were is the most powerfull buzanthium? We are steel here.
When people see our history and nation with nothing more then "shish kebab" in their heads, i get very dissapointed.

[Eddo211]

Re: Is Russia an ally or foe, nowadays?

Slaves, Mr lampron, don't start a rebellion that causes the collapse of an empire, like USSR. They don't fight soviet and Azery army with hunting rifles and win the war.
Any nation in blockade and facing enemies 35 times more in numbers, will seek allies and additional protection if in right mind.
Whom am I saying this? LOL
As far as I can tell even turks can come in here and post what you've posted.

Thats right but he is a moderate.....and the cat is from Scotland with a hard on for Armenians.