Iranian-Armenian relations

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

(1) Let's not be hasty and say things which we do not mean and wouldn't likely occur at all. ... (2) Iranian soldiers died for their country, Iran. ... Armenia was never in a union with Iran, perhaps in very ancient times when our peoples were one tribe, Armeno-Aryans, but that was thousands of years ago.

1. I generally agree with you, and I'm sorry you had to read that: However, if attitudes like Karo's become prevalent - he needs to know that Iranians will wash their hands of people like him, and quickly. It's a fact that the Armenian educational system needs to deal with forthrightly before alienating 200 million Iranians with the same Bolshevik nonsense taught in Azerbaijan-SSR, including a thin understanding of the history of Armenia (which is interwoven with that of Iran's).

2. Yes Iranians died for Iran, but Iranians also fought for the protection of Armenians and Armenia:

"...no serious study can avoid recording the fundamental elements linking pre-Islamic Armenia to Iran ...." (Nina Garsoian, Armano-Iranian Relations in Pre-Islamic Period, 2004.) "The clearest evidence for the interrelation of Iran and Armenia has been derived from a comparison of classical and eastern sources juxtaposed and interpreted by Manandian (1966, p. 36-38) and more particularly by Cyril Toumanoff (1963, pp. 277-305)." (Ibid.) "Very little is known about Armenia's early tribal society, beyond its agricultural wealth and absence of cities, as noted by Xenophon in the description of his journey across the Armenian plateau; but its ties to Iran are also clearly attested." (Ibid.) In so far as Persia's conquest of Armenia: "...an Armenian, Dadarshish, commanded the Persian army." (Ibid.) (In other words, the Persian *conquest* of Armenia, was by Armenians fighting among various tribal factions - and I have to convince an Armenian, Karo, with access to resources and an array of historical educational materials that the Turks invading the area was different than Armenia's various historical governing arrangements with Persia. Ridiculous. The Armenian Genocide was a Pan-Turkic genocide against people of Persian stock.) "The campaigns of Alexander shifted the position of Armenia for centuries from that of an intrinsic component part of the Achaemenid [Iranian] empire to that of a disputed borderland at the limit of the classical and the Iranian worlds." (Ibid.) "Intermarriages between the Iranian and Armenian royal houses continued to be celebrated with great pomp, as was that of the sister of the Armenian king Artawazd II to the Parthian prince Pacorus at which the head of Crassus was used during a performace of Euripides' Bacchae (Plutarch, Crassus 33). In his description of the new capital of Tigranakert, Appian (Mithr. 12.94) noted that for all of its typical Hellenistic features, the new city was also flanked by a royal hunting preserve or "paradise" (MIr. pardêz) of purely Iranian type. Despite Tigran II's use of Greek in the proclamation of his title, its formula "King of kings" was as Iranian as his own Eruandid name."

I don't have time to go through all of the citations I could provide (most from recognized Armenian scholars), but suffice it to say, that if the Armenian educational system fails kids and they are taught to automatically spout off anti-Iranian sentiments, Iranians will shift their attitudes. When Armenians become strangers or hostile to Iranians - 'your problems' with the Turks (or whoever) will be 'your' problems - not Iran's. The higher that wall of separation - the more responsibility you will have to shoulder without Iran's help.

(BTW, I take the same attitude towards people in Iran: I've told Iranians before who don't understand their own history: "Don't like it? Buy a ticket to Saudi Arabia or L.A. We have a country, a legacy, and a history to defend. Or, if you want to make up history? Move to Stalin's and Attaturk's version of *Azerbaijan*.")

[Armanen]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

1. I generally agree with you, and I'm sorry you had to read that: However, if attitudes like Karo's become prevalent - he needs to know that Iranians will wash their hands of people like him, and quickly. It's a fact that the Armenian educational system needs to deal with quickly before alienating 200 million Iranians with the same Bolshevik nonsense taught in Azerbaijan-SSR and thin understanding of the history of Armenia.

2. Yes Iranians died for Iran, but Iranians also fought for the protection of Armenians and Armenia:

"...no serious study can avoid recording the fundamental elements linking pre-Islamic Armenia to Iran ...." (Nina Garsoian, Armano-Iranian Relations in Pre-Islamic Period, 2004.) "The clearest evidence for the interrelation of Iran and Armenia has been derived from a comparison of classical and eastern sources juxtaposed and interpreted by Manandian (1966, p. 36-38) and more particularly by Cyril Toumanoff (1963, pp. 277-305)." (Ibid.) "Very little is known about Armenia's early tribal society, beyond its agricultural wealth and absence of cities, as noted by Xenophon in the description of his journey across the Armenian plateau; but its ties to Iran are also clearly attested." (Ibid.) In so far as Persia's conquest of Armenia: "...an Armenian, Dadarshish, commanded the Persian army." (Ibid.)

I don't have time to go through all of the citations I could provide (most from Armenian scholars), but suffice it to say, that if Armenian educational system fails kids and they are taught to automatically spout off anti-Iranian sentiments, Iranians will shift their attitudes.

I'm not sure that Karo has any issues with Iranians, I doubt he does actually, but I think he feels that you were unfairly picking on Mos.

On the macro level, we can say the primary reason Iranians died in those battles was for Iran, protecting Armenians was a secondary reason. No one is denying that Armeno-Iranian ties don't go back thousands of years. I must say though, that if Xenophon claimed Armenians didn't have cities he was either blind or stupid. By the 3rd century BC when Xenopon went thru Armenia, Armenia already had a history of almost 2000 years, and certainly he could not have missed seeing or hearing about Van which was a city, and though not nearly as grand as what the Persians had to offer, a city nonetheless. But I digress.

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

I'm not sure that Karo has any issues with Iranians...I think he feels that you were unfairly picking on Mos.

Let's all give Mos a big hug. First we'll hug Karo, and then Karo will hug Mos. To celebrate we'll burn a picture of Aliyev and step on pictures of Attaturk.

[Federate]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

I don't think anyone on this forum is anti-Iranian. In fact, most forumers are thankful for Iran's neutrality in regards to Azerbaijan and our ties that keep growing every year. Armenians feel we share a very close history with Iranians that is not often found everywhere in the world. There's no doubt also the Iranian influence on Armenia over the milleniums since the Parthian empire, some of which we have retained better than modern-day Iranians themselves. For example, how many Iranians do you know that are named Suren, Narek, Karen, etc.? Those are all names of Parthian origin. Armenians also don't forget the sometimes bloody history we share so everything is not as rosy as we'd want them to be. But in the end of the day, most Armenians I have spoken to have positive views of your country.

My personal opinions about Iran are that of great respect. I support the government of the Islamic Republic of Iran and was happy when the 'Green revolution' failed, I support Iran's right to nuclear power and even nuclear weapons so long as Iran's adversaries have nuclear weapons of their own. I respect Iran for standing up for the Palestinians even more than the useless Arabs. Iran's drive to achieve self-sufficiency in so many industries due to international sanctions is admiring and its scientific advancements have broken the traditional view on Muslims that they are still stuck in the Middle Ages or are not advanced enough.

What is arguable is whether Iran is friendly to Armenia simply out of interest, simply out of 'brotherhood' or a mix of both and this is what the debate is entirely about and this debate can apply to any Country A - Country B relations! Nobody needs to attack anybody, I have not seen any evidence that Mos or anybody else here is out to discredit Iran and even if anybody was, that is their personal view and if we want them to change their opinion, we can try to convince them otherwise. We look at things from a pro-Armenian perspective and not with a pro-any other country one when it comes to Armenia-X country relations.

For example, as Karo has mentioned Iran does not recognise the AG. Why is this? Evidence points here that Iran is pursuing its national interests by trying not to pick Turkey's feathers. I myself am convinced Iran would recognise it had it not had a border with them. But the burden is on Iranians to prove to all Armenians that this is true. You are doing a good job with giving us information with pictures about AG memorials in Iran. You mentioning Khatami's visit to Tsitsernakaberd is excellent too. But sceptical Armenians will then ask, why did Ahmadinejad skip his Tsitsernakaberd visit when he was in Yerevan a year or two back? You see, this tells many people that Iran is simply doing what most countries are doing and that is playing the realpolitik game. The official explanation was that there was unrest in the country and Mahmoud had to fly back. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt but other Armenians will not be as generous.

[Persopolis]

Re: How does everyone feel about Israel?

... he could not have missed seeing or hearing about Van which was a city, and though not nearly as grand as what the Persians had to offer, a city nonetheless. But I digress.

Forgotten Inscription of Xerxes in Turkey - کتیبه خشایارشا در ترکیه
Inscription of Xerxes the Great, Van Citadel (Achaemenid Empire)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bijantaravels/2985669533/

(What the scholarship says is that the strictly Armenian identity started forming separately from the ParskaHye identity with the advent of Christianity and Islam ... people went in different religious directions.)

BTW: Bijan is a great photographer ... if any of you are interested in a really excellent photographer, go through the links of the guy above. Link to his main page: http://www.flickr.com/photos/bijantaravels/

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

You see, this tells many people that Iran is simply doing what most countries are doing and that is playing the realpolitik game.

This is exactly what I was saying a while back, except for saying it, I got branded a "Azeri" and "Zionist".

[Persopolis]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

For example, as Karo has mentioned Iran does not recognise the AG. Why is this? Evidence points here that Iran is pursuing its national interests by trying not to pick Turkey's feathers. I myself am convinced Iran would recognise it had it not had a border with them. But the burden is on Iranians to prove to all Armenians that this is true. You are doing a good job with giving us information with pictures about AG memorials in Iran. You mentioning Khatami's visit to Tsitsernakaberd is excellent too. But sceptical Armenians will then ask, why did Ahmadinejad skip his Tsitsernakaberd visit when he was in Yerevan a year or two back?.

Again, I agree with the bulk of what you wrote. Ahmadinejad is one person. If tomorrow he puts a bucket on his head and says that bubblegum cures cancer, it doesn't mean that even 1% of Iranians agree with him.

By that same token, Iranians will be made skeptical of the types of comments below ... the point is to reduce the skepticism, not to foster it:

Go pray towards Mecca and shout 'allahu akbar'

Okay, Ahmadinejad is one person, he didn't go to the AG memorial and express his condolences for those events (though his predecessor did - pictures speak a thousand words).

Here's what I don't get: Why are the same people on this forum who are skeptical about Iran because of Ahmadinejad (one guy), not skeptical about all of the major J*wish organizations affirmatively blocking recognition of the Armenian Genocide in several countries for 96 years or Israel arming Azerbaijan? Why are people making excuses for that behavior? Can you imagine if Ahmadinejad had done that? ... We'd never hear the end of it. Can you imagine the Iranian diaspora in L.A. lobbying Congress to BLOCK recognition of the AG? Why do the J*ws get a free-pass and defense by some Armenians? I simply don't get it.

I answered Karo about Iran's official stance on the AG:

What I've heard is that Iran has been working with Turkey to get it to fess-up to its responsibility for the AG behind the diplomatic curtain. Obviously there are regional implications (including war, hostility by Turkey to Iran mediating the NK dispute etc.) I don't think Ahmadinejad can give Karo a personal explanation as to what is going on behind the diplomatic curtain. I would say look to the attitude of the Armenian political establishment - if they are embracing a leader from Iran, they likely understand what Iran is doing behind-the-scenes to get Turkey to comply. Nevertheless, the de facto situation in Iran, as it has been since the 1930s, is that Iranians overtly recognize the AG; Why else would the President of Iran lay flowers at the AG memorial in Armenia and express his condolences, or the government give permission for putting up AG memorials in Iran, etc.? These actions would make little sense without implicit acknowledgement of the AG.

I think what Karo wants is for the Iranian parliament to pass a resolution on the AG. The first place he should ask is the Armenian government (prior to engaging in a diatribe against Iran) - They might very well tell Karo to cool it; that they know what's happening behind the scenes, and that Armenia's foreign policy is not made from Karo's bedroom. The second place Karo can check is with Armenian parliament members in Iran (Yes, Iran has Armenian parliament members ... it always has). Have they sponsored such a bill? It's not as black-&-white as Karo wants it. There might be good reasons for why it's playing out like this.

The other thing to remember is that Iran knows about the AG from first hand experience: many of the Armenians killed were effectively of Persian stock (whether Karo wants to believ it or not) and Iran gave refuge, shelter, and protection to those immediately fleeing Eastern Turkey. We know what happened - it was our guns in the faces of the Ottoman's at the border that saved many Armenians fleeing into Iran. A better question to ask of Russia is why it permitted the massacres and death marches to occur without proper intervention after Armenia became a protected province of Russia. Iran stopped countless attempts to genocide Armenians prior to the early 1900s - why didn't Russia? It could be that while the Iranian government embraces ParskaHyes because of their loyalty to Iran, it mistrusts Yerevan. Another rumor I heard is that Iran might condemn Turkey for the killing of ParskaHyes and then shift the burden to Russia to explain its role as "official protector of its Armenian citizens" at the start of the last century. Remember: Anyone that went along with Russia in the 1900s was seen as a traitor to Iran - everyone means Baku and Yerevan. Iran may be engaging in a feeling-out process to see if it's dealing with "brainwashed commies" or people that it formerly had good relations with and who know and are fond of their history with Iran. In Iran, reputation is everything - it follows you forever.

Remember: The AG was in 1915. Russia became the USSR in 1917. BOTH prior to and after the USSR, Moscow screwed over Armenians. None of that happened on Iran's watch. In fact, we know from historical maps what Armenia would have looked like if Armenian politicians at the turn of the last century hadn't embraced Russia; you likely would all own villas on the Black Sea. Iran never once gave Turkey a whimpy response to military attacks, and Iran was pissed for having to share a border with the USSR. The ParskaHye community in Iran desperately attempted to convince Armenians in Yerevan not to go along with Russia. The honest truth is that Yerevan has made extremely poor choices since the turn of the century in fostering anti-Iran attitudes and those chickens are still coming home to roost, which is why I've encouraged Armenians to take a hard stance against those types of attitudes. I'm not picking on Mos here, but the truth is that Iranians hear sentiments like Mos's emanating from Yerevan all the time, and in also encouraging ParskaHye's to adopt that mindset. This is Armenia's weakness.

Didn't Yerevan try the anti-Iran approach during the 1900s? How did it turn out? Isn't it time to lay those ideas to rest? If you believe what I wrote: As an Armenian it's up to you to refocus the attitudes of your citizens. In my opinion, due to Turkey's and Azerbaijan's threats, Armenia simply does not have enough land, population, time or resources to take any other route.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

This is exactly what I was saying a while back, except for saying it, I got branded a "Azeri" and "Zionist".

You forgot Yahuddi

[Mos]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

You forgot Yahuddi

So I guess if Federate says that he's not all those things, but if I do, I am?

[KanadaHye]

Re: Iranian-Armenian relations

So I guess if Federate says that he's not all those things, but if I do, I am?

Hey, I was just quoting our resident "Iranian" Lucin