Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

[Hakob]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

[QUOTE=Serjik;347957]Haykakan, dont waste you breath on him he is a poser. He is a fake "war hero". I cant believe others here believe his crap. Like you said bro, one mistake and Armenia is of the map. Cant afford mistakes. Russia is our safe bet until who know when, maybe China will be with us in the future. But NEVER the west.




On another note, It has been known that a lot of russia's black deeds Armenians performed 100% better than russians themselves. Like chopping off thousands in Yerevan NKVD basements in 30's in the name of USSR. Russians themselves have hurt lots of Armenian families, besides satanic politics to us sometimes.
And what we discussed earlier, what Vrej brought up, chronology is 100% truth. The debate was how you view and use it and when? Was it an aggresion or just a mercenary behavior? Was it a general policy by russia towards us, or just a flip flop accured in the events of '93. How is this information used by media, and with what purposes?

It is natural that for some any thrust in us for russia means slave mindedness. We are not talking about love or hate. And we should give benefit of a doubt to anyone as long as they come here with respect to others, and are patriots.

This debate can go on or not, it is not about who will win. I wish that we did not have to debate at all. Either Russia or west would be the kind of friend we desired, and most of all, we would be a little more organized for our own interest and sake, to command the friendship that we desire.
If you have anything to add to information or debate, fine. But lets stop there.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

Like i said earlier there is a thread on this already and i have listed some good sources there. As for developing the debate.. i feel the same way about you because you bring little besides negativity to this forum. As for Russia it has done right and wrong things for itself and others but unlike Armenia Russia is big and powerful enough to recover from its mistakes while such mistakes will end the Armenian nation. Just because the likes of Raffi and other western stooges say things and those things get printed in the media, it does not mean those words are facts. I know a lot of people who believe everything in the media and most of it is lies intended to mislead them. Unfortunately Armenia is yet again in the middle of a tug of war between world powers and while non of these powers have our interest at heart (nor should they), only one has us listed in its future plans while the others would like nothing better then for Armenians to become mere mythological oddities.

Be kind, do not spare that much your time.
Post for a second time your reliable sources, and their financing's origins..., since you are the one coming in this thread.
If not, go back to your original thread, and wait for me.

[Haykakan]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

Like i said earlier there is a thread on this already and i have listed some good sources there. As for developing the debate.. i feel the same way about you because you bring little besides negativity to this forum. As for Russia it has done right and wrong things for itself and others but unlike Armenia Russia is big and powerful enough to recover from its mistakes while such mistakes will end the Armenian nation. Just because the likes of Raffi and other western stooges say things and those things get printed in the media, it does not mean those words are facts. I know a lot of people who believe everything in the media and most of it is lies intended to mislead them. Unfortunately Armenia is yet again in the middle of a tug of war between world powers and while non of these powers have our interest at heart (nor should they), only one has us listed in its future plans while the others would like nothing better then for Armenians to become mere mythological oddities.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

So Vrej you and your friend Muradyan finely figured out that Russia plays all sides but for some of us this is no news nor sensational information since this has been the case for hundreds of years. Non of this however changes the fact that no Russia=no Armenia. I just wish you would talk about things that something good can be done about vs a reality that has existed for centuries and is not going to change anytime soon. You scream that Russians are traitors yet the stuff you propose is no less treacherous. So in your opinion Armenia should have the right to act in its own interest irrespective of Russian interest but not the other way around. Of course your opinion means nothing at all anyways since it is power that determines who acts how and the power is clearly in Russia's hands not ours. Artsagh is a great victory for our nation and if we want to make it a lasting one we need to make it officially part of Armenia instead of another state. I feel this is getting off topic but please Vrej do not open yet another thread-you know a thread on media outlets already exists in this forum.

My Dear,
Or you are a geopolitical mastermind, Kissinger class, we are unable to get.... full of sarcasm, or else, you do not understand anything about what you read.
Anyway, your intrusion never develops the debates, at least from what I've seen from your last months posts.
From what I've been able to understand, your basics is: RUSSIA IS ALWAYS RIGHT, LONG LIVE THE TZAR, Period!.
Ok, I do not know others, but it seems to me, I got you.
So, now that you made your point, and happy with that:
Could you please, stick to your principle, and answer to the topic of this thread, (first 2 questions) since you are one of the first would be censors of this forum????

[Haykakan]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

So Vrej you and your friend Muradyan finely figured out that Russia plays all sides but for some of us this is no news nor sensational information since this has been the case for hundreds of years. Non of this however changes the fact that no Russia=no Armenia. I just wish you would talk about things that something good can be done about vs a reality that has existed for centuries and is not going to change anytime soon. You scream that Russians are traitors yet the stuff you propose is no less treacherous. So in your opinion Armenia should have the right to act in its own interest irrespective of Russian interest but not the other way around. Of course your opinion means nothing at all anyways since it is power that determines who acts how and the power is clearly in Russia's hands not ours. Artsagh is a great victory for our nation and if we want to make it a lasting one we need to make it officially part of Armenia instead of another state. I feel this is getting off topic but please Vrej do not open yet another thread-you know a thread on media outlets already exists in this forum.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

I did mistakenly call Shahnazarian Military, than corrected to political. Thanks.

It's ok

[Hakob]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

I did mistakenly call Shahnazarian Military, than corrected to political. Thanks.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

Vrej, Here is your post #510 in "is russia an ally or foen nowadays" on 8-22-13, of Melik Shahnazarians recountingof events in june '93. ....... sponsored radical news outlet. Nothing more to say.

My Dear,
I do not see the contradiction in Hrant Melik Shahnazarian's article, who basically says the same things, and Igor Muradyan's.
First, let me precise:
Hrant Melik Shahnazarian was not a military leader.
He worked, to resume, for the General HQ in Stepanakert.
Thus, he is a perfectly informed person, as hundreds, and thousands like him.
He comes from a very old and respected family of Shushi. As his name indicates, he is a descendant of the Melik Shahnazar family.
If I do remember well, his Grand father, or Grand Oncle, was already one of the most important members of the Artsakh Self Defense comity (independantist Government, since there was no direct link with Armenian Republic), already in 1917-20. Most his family was massacred during massacres of Shushi on 20 March 1920.
Again, if I do remember well, his father or Uncle, still alive in 86-89, was one of the main spiritual fathers of the Artsakhian Charjoum.
That old man, a young volonter in 1918-20, did write a short memory book.
That book was circulating from hand to hand, much before the first hunting rifles did....
Sadly, If I do remember well, he did not live long enough to learn the liberation of Shushi.

In Hrant's article, it is clearly stated, that Moscow, in a desperate and idiotic move to attract New elected President, A. Elchibey (election by popular vote was on 14/06, the date he cites is the presidency of the Parliament, a couple of days before..), did offer Elchibey the 23-rth Division's services:
"7 июня 1992 года, после ряда переворотов и смен руководства в Азербайджане, в этой республике прошли президентские выборы, победу на которых одержал Абульфас Алиев (Эльчибей) - одиозный лидер Народного фронта, ярый пантюркист, патологически ненавидящий Россию и Иран. Москва, огорченная поражением своего протеже - экс-президента Азербайджана Аяза Муталибова, решает предпринять крайне авантюрный шаг - подкупить Эльчибея и завоевать его симпатии. С этой целью Кремль предоставляет в распоряжение Эльчибея дислоцированные в Азербайджане 23-ю мотострелковую и 104-ую десантную дивизии, которые тут же бросаются в бой против армянского населения Республики Арцах."

It is clearly stated, contrary to your lack of control/mercenery hypothisis, thet IT IS MOSCOW=RUSSIA dad did try to bribe, and offered the 23-rth + 104, who did immediately RUSSHED ++++
What else do you need???
He says exactly what I said, exactly what Igor Muradyan says !

The only thing, he uses the word Soviet troops, while the soviet union did not exist any more, simply because it is used to call the red army soviet, and he is still closely associated with the state, and can't mark Russian. (13 июня 1992 года советские (СНГ) войска захватывают Шаумянский район Арцаха, после чего, не удовлетворившись достигнутым, вторгаются в Мартакертский район. )
(But you must then assume, that Moskwa was still the CCCP, in June 1992???)
Is that your point??

If so, then that is exactly the point of Igor Muradyan's article....., he is angry, since no one dares to call a cat a cat, but yet, everybody does agree, or does not deny, that the talk is about a cat.

Basically, reading both articles, I do not see any contradiction.
I see a more "diplomatic" formulation by Hrant Melik Shahnazarian, and that same "diplomacy" criticised by Igor Muradyan.

[Hakob]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

Vrej, Here is your post #510 in "is russia an ally or foen nowadays" on 8-22-13, of Melik Shahnazarians recountingof events in june '93. At the time of this post Armenia was believed to be on the way of signing Vilnus documents.

Let's remember the russian army's record in 1991 (Kaltzo) and yet again June 1992 ....
_______
Важный урок Арцахской войны

21 августа 1992 года - знаменательная дата в истории героического противостояния Республики Арцах вооруженной агрессии Азербайджана. В этот день начался вывод подразделений советских вооруженных сил из подконтрольных Азербайджану территорий. Вначале из Нахиджевана, а затем и из остальных регионов.

Значение этого события до сих пор полностью не изучено. По этой причине имеет смысл напомнить краткую хронологию того времени.

7 июня 1992 года, после ряда переворотов и смен руководства в Азербайджане, в этой республике прошли президентские выборы, победу на которых одержал Абульфас Алиев (Эльчибей) - одиозный лидер Народного фронта, ярый пантюркист, патологически ненавидящий Россию и Иран. Москва, огорченная поражением своего протеже - экс-президента Азербайджана Аяза Муталибова, решает предпринять крайне авантюрный шаг - подкупить Эльчибея и завоевать его симпатии. С этой целью Кремль предоставляет в распоряжение Эльчибея дислоцированные в Азербайджане 23-ю мотострелковую и 104-ую десантную дивизии, которые тут же бросаются в бой против армянского населения Республики Арцах.

13 июня 1992 года советские (СНГ) войска захватывают Шаумянский район Арцаха, после чего, не удовлетворившись достигнутым, вторгаются в Мартакертский район. Плохо вооруженная Армия обороны Республики Арцах отчаянно сопротивляется, однако силы были слишком неравными, и наши бойцы продолжают отступление. Важнейшей задачей становится спасение мирного населения от идущих вслед за советскими войсками убийц в форме азербайджанской аскерни. А колонны советской бронетехники, неся потери, продолжают продвигаться.

В Государственном Комитете обороны Республики Арцах, одновременно с организацией новых линий обороны, началась подготовка к ведению затяжной партизанской войны на оккупированных Азербайджаном территориях. В переполненном беженцами столице Арцаха - Степанакерте - лихорадочно проводится организационная работа по созданию условий для приема новых тысяч беженцев, спасенных нашими бойцами от резни.

Одновременно проводится широкая дипломатическая работа, целью которой было убедить столицы мировых и региональных центров силы в возможности Республики Арцах сорвать любые энергетические и иные экономические планы Азербайджана и его военно-политических спонсоров в регионе.

Немаловажным подспорьем в этой работе стали и бесконечные пантюркистские заявления Эльчибея, никогда не упускавшего случая выступить с проклятиями в адрес России и Ирана. Ситуация сложилась абсурдной и трагичной одновременно: в Арцахе на стороне Азербайджана сражались и гибли русские ребята, а президент Азебайджана громогласно заявлял о своей сокровенной мечте: дожить до окончательного развала России и того дня, когда "с карты мира исчезнет государство под названием Исламская Республика Иран".

В конце концов Кремль взялся за корректировку своих внешнеполитических приоритетов, что и привело к решению вывести из Азербайджана свои войска. Справедливости ради надо сказать, что к этому решению подталкивал Москву и сам Эльчибей, почему-то решивший, что сопротивление и воля Армии обороны Республики Арцах сломлены, и Азербайджан без особого труда и больших потерь довершит начатое двумя советскими дивизиями наступление.

Считается, что эйфория Эльчибея исходила из успехов советских дивизий, однако, думается, не все было столь однозначно. Эльчибей, безусловно, знал, что вывод советских войск из Армении предполагается начать в ноябре 1992 года, и именно на это время намечена передача части находящегося там советского вооружения формирующейся Национальной Армии Армении. Знал Эльчибей и о катастрофической нехватке вооружения и боеприпасов у Армии обороны Арцаха. Речь, в данном случае идет даже не о военной технике, ее у арцахских бойцов практически не было совсем, а об обыкновенном стрелковом оружии, в том числе автоматов, пулеметов и снайперских винтовок.

Президент Азербайджана торопился полностью оккупировать Арцах до того, как Армения получит причитающуюся ей долю советского оружия. И сделать это силами собственных вооруженных сил. Эльчибею очень уж хотелось остаться в недолгой истории Азербайджана в качестве нового тюркского завоевателя. Однако амбиции Эльчибея вдребезги разбились о мужество армянского Воина.

Как уже было сказано, 21 августа 1992 года начался вывод советских (СНГ) войск из Нахиджевана, и именно в этот день, думается, в Москве поняли, какую стратегическую ошибку они совершили при принятии решения о помощи Баку. Азербайджан, изгонявший российских солдат, не позволил Москве вывести принадлежащую ей часть военной техники. Баку требовал, чтобы Москва оставила в республике все советское вооружение. Специально привозимые толпы людей, подавляющее большинство которых состояли из женщин и детей, окружали воинские части, ложились на дороге перед военной техникой. Известен случай в Евлахе, когда на дороге, перед направляющейся в Грузию военной колонной, беснующиеся закавказские турчанки установили "баррикаду", составленную из десятков младенцев. Содаты вынуждены были уступить.

Как бы там ни было, советские войска из Азербайджана были выведены, а вооруженные силы этой республики получили в свое распоряжение сотни единиц бронетехники, артиллерийских и ракетных установок. И тут случилось то, чего в Баку не могут осознать даже 20 с лишним лет спустя. Лишенная поддержки советских войск, агрессия Азербайджана быстро захлебнулась, после чего азербайджанская аскерня, годная лишь для резни мирного населения, стала терпеть жесточайшие поражения на фронте. Результатом этих поражений стало качественное и количественное изменение в вооружении Азербайджана и Республики Арцах, Армия обороны которой практически ежедневно накачивала свои "железные мускулы" за счет трофейной военной техники: танков, БМП, БТР, артиллерийских и ракетных установок.

Интересный факт: в ходе агрессии против Республики Арцах, Азербайджан, получивший и отнявший у советских войск в 1992 году 382 танка в боевом состоянии, вынужден был закупить у Украины еще 60 танков. Тем не менее, в мае 1994 года, когда потерпевший фиаско агрессор, обратившись за посредничеством к Российской Федерации, вымолил у Республики Арцах соглашение о прекращении огня, танков у Азербайджана практически уже не было. Напротив, в конце войны Армия обороны Республики Арцах представляла собой мобильную и хорошо вооруженную для того времени грозную военную машину.

Сегодня, по прошествии более двух десятилетий с тех прекрасных и грозных лет, мы можем констатировать: вывод советских (СНГ) войск из Азербайджана стал одним из переломных моментов в войне. Да, в 1992 году Азербайджану досталось огромное количество оружия и боеприпасов, кроме того, в ходе агрессии эта республика активно прибегала к наемникам из разных стран мира, но все это уже не могло повлиять на конечный результат войны. Армия обороны Арцаха, решившая важнейшую проблему вооружения за счет агрессора, блестяще решила поставленную перед ней задачу, выйдя из войны многократно окрепшей и несравнимо лучше вооруженной.

Тем не менее, события 1992 года должны стать для нас важным уроком.

Левон МЕЛИК-ШАХНАЗАРЯН

Nobody has disputed those right? Anywhere right? You are bringing all those dates and facts again and again.
Melik-Shahnazarian, the political analist on whom, by the way Igor's accusations apply too, puts it the way it was. Short, but with right balance of Soviet-Russian identification.

And here is again your post #857, of Igor Mouradian article from "Lragir" on 11-28-2013, On the eve of Putin's visit to Armenia.
You are unable to see or accept the twists in interpretation by him, and political intent or motivation in this by him and Lragir in using it and attempts in achieving a public reaction.
That is propaganda.
I have nothing more to say. We can go on for many days more.
My dislike of "Lragir" is not because of only this article by the way. This is one that is done much more professionally by Igor than others that I have mentioned. I don't know why you stick to the events of "92 only, but that is not at all explaining "Lragir's" activities and agenda.
And My opinion about Igor Mouraian that has came to be lately will stay the same. He is just extreemely prowest and anti-russian propagandist. He stoped being a public leader long time ago, when his views became increasingly one sided. His views and lot of opposition's have alienated them from public and increasingly are weakening them.
In all those debates about opposition versus prorussians, my repeating point has been that extreme radicalization of opposition has been actually hurting them. And one of the biggest reasons of this radicalisation is their nature of being financed and sponsored, instead of being grass roots, by majority.


Intentionally Forgotten Tragedy
Igor Muradyan
Thursday, 28 November 2013,


In 1989-1992 the Soviet Union and Russia perpetrated genocidal acts against the people living in Nagorno-Karabakh. The Soviet and Russian troops killed over 1000 Armenians, over 40 villages in different regions of the country were emptied and destroyed, the region of Shahumyan and other tight-knit communities of Armenia were destroyed. Furthermore, thousands of Armenians were persecuted severely.
Since then neither the State Duma, nor the Russian government has anyhow addressed or assessed these events. No single Russian author, whether a writer or a journalist, has published a single line on these tragic events.
Every act or inaction by Russians is clear, and that would have been strange if it were the other way round. How about the attitude of the Armenians to these developments. Neither Yerevan, nor Stepanakert has a single monument to these events. These events are not marked anyhow, not a head of state or parliaments of Armenia and NKR has stated anything about them. Not a single significant piece has been produced though a lot of so-called writers have been speculating the topic of heroism, glorifying scoundrels who, by the way, are responsible for the events in Getashen and Shahumyan.
The official writer Zori Balayan has not published anything about these events. Why? He could have written in his notorious letter to Putin that Gulistan was destroyed and handed to the Azerbaijanis by the Russian troops in June 1992.
Earlier the impression was that of full confidence that the topic would stay under control, and apparently there are some people in charge who exercise control. Over many years these people had two purposes – make Armenians subject to Russia without forgetting about their own selves.
Now that Russia is again introduced as Armenia’s savior, it would be good to remind about these tragic events, intentionally forgotten as part of certain manipulations.
It is not a secret that history has been distorted in Russia’s favor over the past few years. This is a clear liquidation of memory. The Karabakh issue is detested by the Russians because it demonstrated how it is possible to create new borders outlined by their empire. This is as unacceptable and terrifying to them as the presence of NATO troops on the post-Soviet territory would be.
The purpose of the Russians is to prove that the Armenians do not have the right to display political and human will, as well as the right to homeland. They will not succeed, and restoration of sovereignty lost on “September 3” should begin with recovery from amnesia. It would be the right time for the parliaments of Armenia and NKR to consider declaring the 13th of June (1992) as the Day of Russia’s aggression against Armenia and the Armenian people.
- See more at: http://www.lragir.am/index/eng/0/com....EFielDNR.dpuf

That is why I brought the link to essay by Sahakian.
In my opinion, a serios political scientist or leader would write a book or something that would be a study of historic events in '92, does not matter lf anti russian or however he/she sees it encompassing the truth instead of coming up with a political sensation and seeking a public shock on an eve of a historic event in country, and place it in sponsored radical news outlet. Nothing more to say.

[Hakob]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

F--- Russia F ---USA. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. So for now Russia is my friend. Tomorrow maybe China will be my friend. But I know WEST will never be my friend. You know what I am saying? Our "war hero" over here does not even know the history of the war he supposedly was fighting in. Dudes it very simply let me explain: During Soviet Union Moscow as against Armenias independence drive because they wanted to keep the SU united. After the falling of SU Moscow started to help Armenia because SU no longer was around and NEW politics started. Armenia is living in this new Moskovian politics after the falling of the SU. Anyone with me so far?

Serjik, Stop....
Vrej knows history. And very well. Our disagreement is about how it is interpreted and when, and with what purposes.
As heated as the conversation gets. I still think Vrej is one of the most informed individuals here. Just pay attention as to what the real discussion is about.

And my dear Vrej, let us continue.