Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

[Serjik]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

F--- Russia F ---USA. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. So for now Russia is my friend. Tomorrow maybe China will be my friend. But I know WEST will never be my friend. You know what I am saying? Our "war hero" over here does not even know the history of the war he supposedly was fighting in. Dudes it very simply let me explain: During Soviet Union Moscow as against Armenias independence drive because they wanted to keep the SU united. After the falling of SU Moscow started to help Armenia because SU no longer was around and NEW politics started. Armenia is living in this new Moskovian politics after the falling of the SU. Anyone with me so far?

[Vrej1915]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

Axper jan, How hard is to anderstand of what am I saying?
How do you understand of my asking you not to interpret events of 92 diffrently for what they were for your today's interests as me defending soviet union or russia for that matter is behind me. You post two links, one describing life and heroism of Shahen Meghriyan, the other, his interview about the events of june 13 1992. He states about two armored battalions and other forces that I have brought as wikipedia link. Nothing is hidden. Anything new? not. You put down chronological events for which I can add that you forgot about 600 rail cars full of armaments that moscow left to azeris.
You have missed one date though. Soviet union ended not on december 1989, but on december 26 1991. Not allmost 3 years, but six months before those events.
You mention a sertain Seyranian, that is the minister of defence today. You forgot to mention many others, if you could only, because so many were involved in those events and are high ranking officers in our army now, and whom Igor mouradian names as conspirators for russia and hiding the truth. Who is trying to pull an extreme propaganda material out of this and who is getting upset when I am calling to shut down that nonsence? If russia invaded artsakh or tried, like Igor said, there would be no independent Artsakh now. And if your military command, intelligentsia, and politicians were trying to sell Artsakh or Armenia, all would be sold long time ago, including you and me in it.
I am not accusing you of forgery. I am accusing Igor mouradian of twisting those events(slavon involvement, like you say) as russian invasion and trying to plant this as a propaganda tool in effort to damage Armeno-russian relations. Now is that a service to our country? You figure out yourself. And as to where you stand. I have nothing towards you to accuse or slander you.
You had a very good and intelligent post today about natural gas supply history in Armenia and the dangers in loosing controll of it. Did I critisize? No.
But do not bring and mix propaganda here from "Lragir" or any other source that is up to twisting reality by the order of western sponsors and interpreting some Iranian diplomats murky comments as 100% truth about Iran wanting to sell $100 gas to Armenia. Reality is there and price of gas sold and to be sold is there too. How long and how much opposition intends to use this topic to torture the public only they know. But i know for sure that compared to lets say 10 years ago, the opposition has become as cheap in publics eye as the Iranian gas they perceive to be.

Let me correct if you please:
# I did not bringged in 2 quotes, I bringged in 4, and if really necessary, I may add:
1- The azeri source you yourself posted, was in fact proving my point: Azeris tend to ignore, deny russian or any mercenary role in their war effort. Yet, even in their post, they do specifically state "the engagement of 4 tank battalions and 2 mechanized infantry battalions of the 23rd Division of the former Soviet Union Army, as well as 4 additional battalions of the Azerbaijan Army and various brigades from the neighboring regions"; This alone says it all. You must stop here, and admit reality, since this 23-rth Division was under pure Russian command, whether you like it or not; (see what I explained about the past and future destiny of this unit, untill its dismentelment, in Tiflis when retreated in 1993.
2- The Armenian source You mentioned, where the TABOO on Shahumian's fall, and the 13/06/92 + Specific mention of RUSSIAN deliveries, is an other element, ENOUGH to close the debate.
3- Shahen Meghryan, (I regret I do not have the entire interview, but what we have is enough for this point), states clearly: 2 armored Battalions against his men. That meant, in those days: RUSSIAN Mechanised Battalions of the 23-rth Division, simply because there was no such unit anywhere else, in the entire Azerbaijan, other than the Russian 23-rth.... It might be hard to recontextualize today, but I remind you, that until that date, operations on NKR fronts never exceeded at most, 20 armored vehicles. Simply because no one had such quantities. The Russian delivery mentioned in your Armenian source, was too close, for the azeris to use them as front line operational Battalions. is it hard to understand?? Perzor was liberated on 18 of May, what remained of more or less operational armor in Azerbaijan National Front's disposal, was or destroyed, captured, or disseminated between Cobra positions (facing Gornitzor, Goris District of RA) and Kovsakan (aka-zankelan).
The only remaining concentration point they had, was Akna (aka-akdam). There was nothing more than 30 units in that location, and perhaps a dozen, maximum 20 in other locations all long the fronts. If they had more, they would have simply used them for their salvation attempt from Akna, the day we stormed Shushi, on 8 of May 92. (often forgotten, but while all our men were going on Shushi, on the same day, they attacked us on Nakhitchevanik front, and the small troops of Vito pushed them back).
So, they received the Russian dispatch after the 24-26 of May, at best, most probably rather beginning of June (once the liberation of Perzor caused the change of regime in Baku, and the Kreml tried, against all odds, at the expense of our blood, to lure the panturkist Elchibey: elections on 14/06/92 ++). So, even in best timing, no army could have created, and turned operational 200 armored vehicles, in less than 10 days! Isn't it evident for you? Anyway, ask any more or less military man, he will explain it. CONCLUSION: it was quite evident for all Armenians concerned or engaged in military operation in 92, that when Shahen mentions 2 armored battalions, he speaks of the Russians!
4/ VAHE, is a forth source, taugh I admit, not present on the net, to be quoted...

#Azerbaijan did not received 600, but 11 000 wagons of ammunition.

# I did not get why you quote 89? Did I mentioned it. If so, it must be typing error, in this context.

# The Soviet Union was dissoluted in Dec 91, exact. But since the August coup (before, the Red Army was operating against us, remember, operation Goltzo..), and effective regime change by Boris Yeltzin, the central Government did not have good control of the Red Army left in the Caucasus republics; that's the reason why mercenary operations were possible, mainly on azeri, but rarely from our side too. that's why the arms wharehouses where looted, specially the one near Akna ... that was the reason, I precised you, that already by Dec 91, Russia having effectively taken control of the Red Army, the central command was back. That's why I mentioned February 92 and the 366 battallion, proof that already FULL RUSSIAN CONTROL, on what did remain, was EFFECTIVE.

# One more element, if the units of 23-Division were under effective azeri command, how came they stopped their backing to the azeri war effort, after capture of Kitchan???

-------
Now, reasoning from an other point of view/
Igor Muradyan is not me or You. All Yerevan pays attention to what he writes. Some like him, some hate him. Nevertheless, such harsh accusations as you state (even if you did not get the message's subtility 100%, addressed to well identified persons, who did recognise themselves, and distort a bit his quotes), to well identified persons, still in office, and having all powers, legal and else:
What he states, if ever it was NOT THE REALITY, would be very DESHONORING and GRAVE.
Don't you think, at least one of those persons, would have repliyed, in any Media?
Could you make such a false accusation, and remain unanswered, since not only the honor of the persons attacked is in play, but also relations with Russia..?? I bet not.
So please, find a quote, of any more or less respectable man (at least people well known as Russian spokespersons, like Alexander Iskandaryan, or Hayk Kotanjian... ), refuting the RUSSIAN ROLE on 13/06/1992.

[Hakob]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

1/ I still do not have my answer: which media I am supposed to quote? If I get you well, none, since there is no such media....??
2/ If you were a brave armenian nationalist/patriot, opposing your Government's policy, in which media would you publish???

----------
Most you say, is full of sense, but not necessarily the conclusions.
You remind me of the Parekortzagan/Ramgavar circles of the Diaspora, during soviet period. Those people were by essence traditional, conservative capitalists. They could not, for a second live in a socialist system, let alone a communist one. But from a patriotic/good heart sense + their traditional confrontation with Tashnaks, they were ready to defend at any cost the soviet regime's any act, on patriotic ground.....
----------

Now returning to our content:
1/ The azeri source you state, itself quotes " As many as 4 tank battalions and 2 mechanized infantry battalions of the 23rd Division of the former Soviet Union Army, as well as 4 additional battalions of the Azerbaijan Army and various brigades from the neighboring regions, were joined in this operation."
2/ The armenian version, which if I am not wrong, is a copy paste of NKR government, or defense ministry page?? I forgot, but I do remember the style, (I had seen that a decade back) is a bright example, of what Igor Muradyan is just stating!!! It completely bypasses the worst episode of the war! You couldn't find a better example to dismantle your arguments!!! (reason being it is an official state source, forced to russian censor or auto-cesure I was talking about)
Read it very well, not a word on 13 of June 1992 in Shahumian, while they describe perfectly the previous day's operations, on Askeran/nakhitchevanik front, even they give the name of the posts captured and liberated.... That alone says all.
Now, in a very armenian sense of malice, the same source, trying to resist the order of censure, quotes, a little before:
"Հայկական կողմի այս ակնառու հաջողություններին հետևել է պարտադրված կարճատև հրադադար, ինչը սակայն խախտվել է 1992-ի մայիսի վերջերին ու հունիսի սկզբներին, երբ Ռուսաստանն Ադրբեջանին հանձնել է մեծ քանակությամբ զենք ու զինամթերք (մոտավոր տվյալներով 150 տանկ, 120 ՀՄՄ, 170 զրահափոխադրիչ, մոտ 150 ականանետ, 90 զենիթահրետանային կայանք, ՍՈւ-25 և ՄԻԳ տեսակի ինքնաթիռներ)։ Միաժամանակ, Ադրբեջանում տեղակայված ռուսական բանակի զորամասերի զինվորների ու սպաների համար ստեղծվել են որպես վարձկան մարտական գործողություններին մասնակցելու բոլոր պայմանները։ Այդ ամենը Ադրբեջանին հնարավորություն է տվել որոշակիորեն փոխել իրավիճակը ղարաբաղյան ռազմաճակատում։"....

Do you need more elaboration?????
-------

You accuse me, and the analyst, I. Muradyan of forgery.
You may add the name of National Hero, Ashod Meghryan, commander of Shahumian front:

http://hetq.am/arm/news/31821/aysor-shahen-mexryani-tsnndyan-orn-e-bacarik-tesanyut.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNHyxj8lzMg

You may also add the name of Vahe Baghdasaryan from Talin, vice commander of the Yeghnik Batallion, KIA, (VAHE, published in Yerevan in 2012 if I'm not wrong?) etc.... if I had time, I could find hundreds of quotes...

To resume:
From Dec 1989, there was no Soviet Union.
There were independent states, and the rest of the soviet red Army, that turned into effectively a Russian Army, commanded from the Kreml, as always.
There were 2 Army formations in the zone of combats; The IV ex-Red Army, based in Azerbaijan, and the VII ex-Red Army based in Armenia.
The army battalions based in Nakhitchevan were officially part of the VII army, but by then, the azeris expelled most of the russians, and captured all the material, most of all, the T-55 batallion based there.
The 366 Brigade, based in Stepanakert, was under the orders of the IV army, first based in Baku, then Kantzak.
Much before this stage, most officers of the 366 were Artsakh Armenians (NKO or Northern Artsakh/Kartmank), having demanded their relocation from all over CCCP, to Stepanakert. One of them was Seyran Ohanian, then the second in command of the 366...
No matter all the turmoils, the big military formations did remain under Kreml/Russia control.
If some soldiers, or commanders did desert, or accept mercenary missions, never a full unit could have moved, let alone participated in a military operation without the knowledge, and the green light of the Kreml.
Thus, after the 366 base in Stepanakert, with half of its personal remaining (most turkic origin conscripts, Kazakh, Uzbek, Kirkiz... had already deserted, or joined the azaris in Ivanian (aka-Khojallu) or Shushi, was regularly bombarded first by Alazans, then by Grad missiles from Shushi, with its second in command being the above mentioned patriot Armenian, could not dare to respond to incoming fire by daylight... even when due to azeri fire, in a couple of days, they had direct hits and lost 4 slavon conscripts, inside the base++
I insist, inside the walls of the base, big enough to be distinguished by azeri artillerists, certain to remain unpunished.
We had to wait the dark of the night, to have the capacity to take out a BTR, or rarely a tank, to respond a couple of rounds, from outside the territory of the base, most of the time, with sole armenian crews...
That gives you an idea of the control the Russian command had, on a small formation, half Artsakhian, inside surrounded and shelled Stepanakert, while its vice commander was a certain Seyran Ohanian!
Time passing, after the turmoil of the dismentelment, the direct control of Moskwa on remaining major formations only got stricter.
Nevertheless, by february/march 92, there was no Russian army in Baku, or Absheron. They preferred to keep control of the 23-rd Division of paratroopers, based in Kanzak(aka Gyanja, aka Kirovabad), manned by disciplined slavon paratroopers, for their future plans in Azerbaijan.
This unit could NOT ACT, without CLEAR CUT orders from Moskwa, as the history of its acts will proof.
(In the same previous period, the most strategic/valued elements in Armenian territory, in the base near Stepanavan, were taken rapidly to Russia, to deprive the forming Armenian state of that kind of arsenal: that alone tells a lot about the capacity of the Kreml to decide important mooves in the Transcaucasus).
After all the fuss, consecutive to the bright victory in Ivanian(aka Kodjalu)/Askenan front on 26 of febr 1992, the Baku authorities did manage to force the Kreml, to withdraw the 366 brigade (the only more or less armed formation in surrounded NKR) from Stepanakert.
Regardless of the characteristics of its ethnic composition, the commanders, officers, and the desperate military situation, the Kreml did have enough authority, to force the evacuation of the 366. It is only the decisive actions of the NKA, and the complicity of most of the staff, that most of the equipment was 'captured' by us (no need to enter into the details): nevertheless, if the Kreml had enough authority on such a brigade, in landlocked and bombarded Stepanakert, you could imagine the situation of the 23-rd Division of elite slavon troops, equipped with the best tanks, helicopters, and fixed wing aircrafts.
The 366 was evacuated on March 1-3, if I am not wrong. It was evacuated, toward the 23-rd Division, in Kantzak.
In may, while officially the 3 ex-soviet republics were supposed to receive equal quantities of armor, aircraft, etc...(200 tanks each), the Russian government, by a surprise move, delivered much more tanks tan planned, to Baku, while whitholding the delivery to Armenia... plus, the 2 tank Batallions of the 23-rd Division, Ashod Meghrian is talking about (unfortunately I do not have the link to the entire interview, but you must find it, if you search...), WITH their SLAVON CONSCRIPTS, did participate to the attack on Shahumian on 13/06/92.
This is a fact.
Does our officers ignore about that, as you state it so well. Certainly not! All of them do know, as all Artsakhtzis do know.
Why do they not speak about? that's exactly the subject of the article, and that's exactly why I quoted it...

Now, proof of the CONTINUOUS CONTROL of the Kreml on the 23-rd Division, well beyond all of 92, but still in 93...
A year later, when Abulfaz Etchibey insisted on the ouster of the RUSSIAN Army (23-rd Division), refusing by that time its help to the azeri army, the Kreml was forced to withdrow its army, to Tiflis... but keeping enough strict control on it, that it could order the delivery of most its armement to a certain Surat Huseinov, (the KGB man, left to change regime in Baku).
No need to continue the story, well known too....

After all this demonstration, if you doubt, that it was a Russian direct participation on the 13 of June 92, you have to explain me....

Axper jan, How hard is to anderstand of what am I saying?
How do you understand of my asking you not to interpret events of 92 diffrently for what they were for your today's interests as me defending soviet union or russia for that matter is behind me. You post two links, one describing life and heroism of Shahen Meghriyan, the other, his interview about the events of june 13 1992. He states about two armored battalions and other forces that I have brought as wikipedia link. Nothing is hidden. Anything new? not. You put down chronological events for which I can add that you forgot about 600 rail cars full of armaments that moscow left to azeris.
You have missed one date though. Soviet union ended not on december 1989, but on december 26 1991. Not allmost 3 years, but six months before those events.
You mention a sertain Seyranian, that is the minister of defence today. You forgot to mention many others, if you could only, because so many were involved in those events and are high ranking officers in our army now, and whom Igor mouradian names as conspirators for russia and hiding the truth. Who is trying to pull an extreme propaganda material out of this and who is getting upset when I am calling to shut down that nonsence? If russia invaded artsakh or tried, like Igor said, there would be no independent Artsakh now. And if your military command, intelligentsia, and politicians were trying to sell Artsakh or Armenia, all would be sold long time ago, including you and me in it.
I am not accusing you of forgery. I am accusing Igor mouradian of twisting those events(slavon involvement, like you say) as russian invasion and trying to plant this as a propaganda tool in effort to damage Armeno-russian relations. Now is that a service to our country? You figure out yourself. And as to where you stand. I have nothing towards you to accuse or slander you.
You had a very good and intelligent post today about natural gas supply history in Armenia and the dangers in loosing controll of it. Did I critisize? No.
But do not bring and mix propaganda here from "Lragir" or any other source that is up to twisting reality by the order of western sponsors and interpreting some Iranian diplomats murky comments as 100% truth about Iran wanting to sell $100 gas to Armenia. Reality is there and price of gas sold and to be sold is there too. How long and how much opposition intends to use this topic to torture the public only they know. But i know for sure that compared to lets say 10 years ago, the opposition has become as cheap in publics eye as the Iranian gas they perceive to be.

[Vrej1915]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

Let me tell you, ........... The trash can.

1/ I still do not have my answer: which media I am supposed to quote? If I get you well, none, since there is no such media....??
2/ If you were a brave armenian nationalist/patriot, opposing your Government's policy, in which media would you publish???

----------
Most you say, is full of sense, but not necessarily the conclusions.
You remind me of the Parekortzagan/Ramgavar circles of the Diaspora, during soviet period. Those people were by essence traditional, conservative capitalists. They could not, for a second live in a socialist system, let alone a communist one. But from a patriotic/good heart sense + their traditional confrontation with Tashnaks, they were ready to defend at any cost the soviet regime's any act, on patriotic ground.....
----------

Now returning to our content:
1/ The azeri source you state, itself quotes " As many as 4 tank battalions and 2 mechanized infantry battalions of the 23rd Division of the former Soviet Union Army, as well as 4 additional battalions of the Azerbaijan Army and various brigades from the neighboring regions, were joined in this operation."
2/ The armenian version, which if I am not wrong, is a copy paste of NKR government, or defense ministry page?? I forgot, but I do remember the style, (I had seen that a decade back) is a bright example, of what Igor Muradyan is just stating!!! It completely bypasses the worst episode of the war! You couldn't find a better example to dismantle your arguments!!! (reason being it is an official state source, forced to russian censor or auto-cesure I was talking about)
Read it very well, not a word on 13 of June 1992 in Shahumian, while they describe perfectly the previous day's operations, on Askeran/nakhitchevanik front, even they give the name of the posts captured and liberated.... That alone says all.
Now, in a very armenian sense of malice, the same source, trying to resist the order of censure, quotes, a little before:
"Հայկական կողմի այս ակնառու հաջողություններին հետևել է պարտադրված կարճատև հրադադար, ինչը սակայն խախտվել է 1992-ի մայիսի վերջերին ու հունիսի սկզբներին, երբ Ռուսաստանն Ադրբեջանին հանձնել է մեծ քանակությամբ զենք ու զինամթերք (մոտավոր տվյալներով 150 տանկ, 120 ՀՄՄ, 170 զրահափոխադրիչ, մոտ 150 ականանետ, 90 զենիթահրետանային կայանք, ՍՈւ-25 և ՄԻԳ տեսակի ինքնաթիռներ)։ Միաժամանակ, Ադրբեջանում տեղակայված ռուսական բանակի զորամասերի զինվորների ու սպաների համար ստեղծվել են որպես վարձկան մարտական գործողություններին մասնակցելու բոլոր պայմանները։ Այդ ամենը Ադրբեջանին հնարավորություն է տվել որոշակիորեն փոխել իրավիճակը ղարաբաղյան ռազմաճակատում։"....

Do you need more elaboration?????
-------

You accuse me, and the analyst, I. Muradyan of forgery.
You may add the name of National Hero, Shahen Meghryan, commander of Shahumian front:

http://hetq.am/arm/news/31821/aysor-shahen-mexryani-tsnndyan-orn-e-bacarik-tesanyut.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vNHyxj8lzMg

You may also add the name of Vahe Baghdasaryan from Talin, vice commander of the Yeghnik Batallion, KIA, (VAHE, published in Yerevan in 2012 if I'm not wrong?) etc.... if I had time, I could find hundreds of quotes...

To resume:
From Dec 1989, there was no Soviet Union.
There were independent states, and the rest of the soviet red Army, that turned into effectively a Russian Army, commanded from the Kreml, as always.
There were 2 Army formations in the zone of combats; The IV ex-Red Army, based in Azerbaijan, and the VII ex-Red Army based in Armenia.
The army battalions based in Nakhitchevan were officially part of the VII army, but by then, the azeris expelled most of the russians, and captured all the material, most of all, the T-55 batallion based there.
The 366 Brigade, based in Stepanakert, was under the orders of the IV army, first based in Baku, then Kantzak.
Much before this stage, most officers of the 366 were Artsakh Armenians (NKO or Northern Artsakh/Kartmank), having demanded their relocation from all over CCCP, to Stepanakert. One of them was Seyran Ohanian, then the second in command of the 366...
No matter all the turmoils, the big military formations did remain under Kreml/Russia control.
If some soldiers, or commanders did desert, or accept mercenary missions, never a full unit could have moved, let alone participated in a military operation without the knowledge, and the green light of the Kreml.
Thus, after the 366 base in Stepanakert, with half of its personal remaining (most turkic origin conscripts, Kazakh, Uzbek, Kirkiz... had already deserted, or joined the azaris in Ivanian (aka-Khojallu) or Shushi, was regularly bombarded first by Alazans, then by Grad missiles from Shushi, with its second in command being the above mentioned patriot Armenian, could not dare to respond to incoming fire by daylight... even when due to azeri fire, in a couple of days, they had direct hits and lost 4 slavon conscripts, inside the base++
I insist, inside the walls of the base, big enough to be distinguished by azeri artillerists, certain to remain unpunished.
We had to wait the dark of the night, to have the capacity to take out a BTR, or rarely a tank, to respond a couple of rounds, from outside the territory of the base, most of the time, with sole armenian crews...
That gives you an idea of the control the Russian command had, on a small formation, half Artsakhian, inside surrounded and shelled Stepanakert, while its vice commander was a certain Seyran Ohanian!
Time passing, after the turmoil of the dismentelment, the direct control of Moskwa on remaining major formations only got stricter.
Nevertheless, by february/march 92, there was no Russian army in Baku, or Absheron. They preferred to keep control of the 23-rd Division of paratroopers, based in Kanzak(aka Gyanja, aka Kirovabad), manned by disciplined slavon paratroopers, for their future plans in Azerbaijan.
This unit could NOT ACT, without CLEAR CUT orders from Moskwa, as the history of its acts will proof.
(In the same previous period, the most strategic/valued elements in Armenian territory, in the base near Stepanavan, were taken rapidly to Russia, to deprive the forming Armenian state of that kind of arsenal: that alone tells a lot about the capacity of the Kreml to decide important mooves in the Transcaucasus).
After all the fuss, consecutive to the bright victory in Ivanian(aka Kodjalu)/Askenan front on 26 of febr 1992, the Baku authorities did manage to force the Kreml, to withdraw the 366 brigade (the only more or less armed formation in surrounded NKR) from Stepanakert.
Regardless of the characteristics of its ethnic composition, the commanders, officers, and the desperate military situation, the Kreml did have enough authority, to force the evacuation of the 366. It is only the decisive actions of the NKA, and the complicity of most of the staff, that most of the equipment was 'captured' by us (no need to enter into the details): nevertheless, if the Kreml had enough authority on such a brigade, in landlocked and bombarded Stepanakert, you could imagine the situation of the 23-rd Division of elite slavon troops, equipped with the best tanks, helicopters, and fixed wing aircrafts.
The 366 was evacuated on March 1-3, if I am not wrong. It was evacuated, toward the 23-rd Division, in Kantzak.
In may, while officially the 3 ex-soviet republics were supposed to receive equal quantities of armor, aircraft, etc...(200 tanks each), the Russian government, by a surprise move, delivered much more tanks tan planned, to Baku, while whitholding the delivery to Armenia... plus, the 2 tank Batallions of the 23-rd Division, Shahen Meghrian is talking about (unfortunately I do not have the link to the entire interview, but you must find it, if you search...), WITH their SLAVON CONSCRIPTS, did participate to the attack on Shahumian on 13/06/92.
This is a fact.
Does our officers ignore about that, as you state it so well. Certainly not! All of them do know, as all Artsakhtzis do know.
Why do they not speak about? that's exactly the subject of the article, and that's exactly why I quoted it...

Now, proof of the CONTINUOUS CONTROL of the Kreml on the 23-rd Division, well beyond all of 92, but still in 93...
A year later, when Abulfaz Etchibey insisted on the ouster of the RUSSIAN Army (23-rd Division), refusing by that time its help to the azeri army, the Kreml was forced to withdrow its army, to Tiflis... but keeping enough strict control on it, that it could order the delivery of most its armement to a certain Surat Huseinov, (the KGB man, left to change regime in Baku).
No need to continue the story, well known too....

After all this demonstration, if you doubt, that it was a Russian direct participation on the 13 of June 92, you have to explain me....

[Hakob]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

My dear,
I invite you to read well what I wrote, and stop the typical agitprop technology of diluting and discrediting the other, by adding words in his idea: that's exactly what you do, when for some time now, you bring in gey problematic and BS, replying to my posts.
Please be kind and slightly honest, and drop that, since you will find not a word, in any of my posts, and I may pretty surely assume my quoted articles about that, if not on a much more negative way, that you could even dare: but for that, you must have some intellectual honesty.

Second, stop manipulating facts, stating I only post Lragir, since:
1- It is certainly not true, I post from at least a dozen sources: or you do not read everything, and are atracted only by the source Lragir, in wich case you must have a problem, or you are dishonest.
2- Stop saying I only quote articles, since I am one of the few, who tries, when my knowledge permits, and my time, my english... to vulgarise subjects that only perhaps a few do have interest to, but at least in my knowledge, are of a great importance: Just for ex: Sevan/Hydropower/Agriculture/Energy/Airports/Western Armenia/Islamised Armenians/Industry..... , your agitprop basic technology: state a lie, as often as possible, at the end it will always remain something....., dates back the times of Goebels and Stalin: please stop! If you dare, post at least a few interesting subjects, in place of defending here and there, by false affirmations and slander, your 'legality'.
3- You would like me to be a full time journalist, to write every day articles for you, in place of quoting.... I am not. Please be kind, go to any of your beloved and approoved media outlet, and you will find hand made, ready to be consumed articles for you.... , and by the way, if you have the kindness, you would perhaps inform us the name and financial resources of that Approoved media ??

Some of the things you say about media manipulations, destabilisations, hijacking of public interest are quite true: but what that has to do with the subjects I post.????
I am not the lawyer of any media, and contrary what you try to impose as a format, each time you try to derail the debate, I always ask you to attack the subject, the content , not the container...... from now on, I will not reply to this kind of slander on this point, I will just sent back to this thread, any would be sensor.

Now, finally coming to the subject:
Do you honestly argue, that the Russian Army, at least part of the Russian Army, with the 'DA' of someone in the Kreml, did not attack NKR on the 13 of June 1992, on Shahumian and Martakert fronts??? (Todan/Puzluk-Erketch direction, Karachinar direction, Mir Bachir/leninavan Directions)???
If you do, then you are or a dishonest person, ("paid or forced to act like"), or you are very misinformed person.

Reality is sad, sometime tragic.
Refusing to face it might be a preservation instinct.
It turns criminal, when it concerns the security, of at least part of your Nation, more so if your refusal can ease the repitition of same scenario...
No one, in the current regime, and past ones, in my knowledge, did deny this evident fact, well known to all slightly concerned parts of our people, and all Artsakhians.
They are "forced" to, or willingly try, to ignore that tragic page, for their personal, or clan interests...., by bypassing it.
Try to find a quote, from Serjik, Levon, or Robert, denying this fact..., or any guy, more or less informed.
The Shahumyantzis will make a khorovadz of him, alive....

Let me tell you, there is no proven media as such. There are articles that are close to reality or far from reality. There are articles written for the benefit of our nation as a whole, and there are articles written serving the narrow interests of some political group. There are articles written by someone who has been aching about an issue that is clearly visible to him, including solutions that he envisions for the said problems. And there are articles written by someone outright satisfying a customer or sponsor, without regards to damage done to the national interests. It is your responcibility to spread something that is not just propaganda but 100% thruth and beneficial to our nation. And I will not say more, since I consider you to be an intellectual. But I cannot sit buy quietly when somithing is spread around that is not 100% truth or I see as causing harm to my nation. And that is my choice and responcibility.
You don't have to be a jurnalist to do what you think is right for your country. But do it with not any particular side or group in mind but the whole nation, including even the most undisirables.
I read all or most of your posts. Have you seen me critising all of them? No, right? It is all about "Lragir" and articles you bring from there, and I have proven many times that "brother, this is not 100%, this is not all the story, this is only one sided propaganda". Don't paste those extreme articles without passing them from censure in your heart. I have nothing against you.
About the events in june 12-13, 1992.
Here are event accounts by Armenian as well as english versions in easier to obtain wikipedia.
Here is the english language version, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Goranboy
And here is the Armenian language version http://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/Արցախյան_ազատամարտ
Soviet army participated, yes. But not the army that represents today's russia. We are not playing fools here. Russians will attack and have attacked or participated against us before. But not on this one. Dishonesty here is igor mouradian's and your attempts to "install" a diffrent interpretation of those events suited in affecting today's Armenia-russia relations. And this comes from a sponsored media and political writer as propaganda.
Those people that have fought against azeri, chechen and russian mercenaries on june 13 1992, are the backbone of todays Armenian army and political core, and they are working with today's russian military as closest allies for the benefit and security of our nation. Igor mouradian has called all of them "conspirators" working for russia, and "lragir" has published it. Of course i can expect similar comment from you to me, just because I am not taking cheap propaganda xxxx from you or your sources quietly.
You seem not to differentiate between a government and a state. I am defending my state not the government. Government can be democratic, totalitarian, dictatorship, morons or thievs and gamblers. They come and go. But the state is one and the same. Our dream that came into reality after so many centuries.
You guys do not differentiate between Serj sargsian or HHK and Armenian state. You do not notice and care where your actions hurt Serjik and where the state, otherwise you would censore yourselfs or those media that insanly critisize with biggest and baddest accusations, be it only a half truth or not at all.
Zaruhi Postanjyan's infamous comments in europarliament and reaction of all those monkeys celebrating in sponsored opposition, including "lragir", is just only one example of such conduct.
She did not hurt Serjik at all, but our state in europe.
That is why when any idiot comes over off limits damaging our state and if someone protests, a story of serjik or any other member of government, oligarkhy or any unjust actions by those is brought up, thus absolving the idiot commenter or publisher of responsibility of their own words and actions.
Someone comes and calls our nation russia's dog. And when I protest and put up a fight, very fiew do join in with me, because a lot of people even in this forum still cannot anderstand where government ends and nation/state begins. For them it is embarrasing to be seen "defending serjik", because that is what it looks to them. not an action of taking ownership of their own state.
But there is a judge, and that is Armenian public. The lack of support for those bigmouth sponsored activists in Armenia is a testament, that the nation has allready seen, judged and put them where they belong. The trash can.

[Serjik]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

Last I checked around western policy in kavkas was in total cahoots with oil companies, Turks, Israleis, Azerbaboons and Muslims. Russian policy in the Kavkas is against western oil companies, Turkish, Israeli, Azerbaboon, Muslim and western powers. The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Think about that! Like its a no brainer that Russias politics is in total cahoots with Armenian politics and vice versa as long as Armenia stays Russias close friend. Open your blind eyes.

Some here, decided and defend, the idea that any media financed by the West, or supposed to, is automatically irrelevant or slanderous, and automatically, any argument their pages may present, are irrelevant, since their pages are financed by the West...

I personally believe, that the question is not senseless, as long as the rule is for every argument/point of view.
Why a Russian financed media is more credible, than a Western financed one??
From an armenian point of view, I do not see the difference, unless I accept, that we are already willingly russians...

And even more, even if a media is financed by "Armenian" sources, it is important to see, what kind of armenian finances are there??

As my point of view: Discuss and counter the arguments, the thesis, the facts that are present in every single article posted (CONTENT), rather than slander it using doubtful demonstrations based on the Media it is published in, and ONLY that (CONTAINER) seems not accepted, I propose every such bright mind the following in this thread:

1°/ Propose your 'Trust Worthy' source of Information (CONTAINER), not forgetting to mention its financial sources.

2°/ If you were a genuine Armenian Nationalist/Patriot, and you were against the policy of your government, considering its policy counter to the National Interests: IN WICH MEDIA WOULD YOU PUBLISH YOUR ARTICLE? i.e: Would that Media publish You???

[Vrej1915]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

My dear, the criticism is about consistently spreading propaganda tru sponsored media instead of discussions in a forum, where public has come to find some true facts with members input and true discussions and debates. Especially when that media is publishing the facts twisted and is meant by it's publishers to spread despair among population and instigating public unrest at any cost, not serving the true opposition but just to satisfy it's sponsors. And that goes to any media and publishing, be it pro west or proeast.
You have been posting "lragir's articles and defending them at any cost when some of that articles are nothing more than low level, untruthfull and biased, fabricated propaganda, starting and ending with "sold out government", "inept intelligencia", "usurped independence" and such. Designed to "condition and controll" minds, rather than healthy political conversation.
Should we go back to posts #878-886 in "is russia an ally or foe nowadays" thread, in which igor mouradian was trying to implant an idea in public "memory" that there has been a russian invasion early in Artsakh war and in his way was accusing and discrediting whole Armenian "intelligensia", military and most freedom fighters of being part of conspiracy by not "condemning" that subject for 20+ years?
Should we go back to post #905 in same thread, where Naira Hayrumian was mocking whole Armenian population of being in between russia's legs doing you know what, just because public did not protest putin's visit the way "laragir" and sponsors would have liked? (this anger towards Armenian public was essentially because display of lack of support and probably evidence of bad job by "lragir" and inc. in eyes of sponsors).
Or the posts #994-995 of the same thread where I showed that "lragir' gave more biased anti Armenian reporting than azeri media, about nursultan nazarbayev's conduct?
You admit yourself that lragir is financed by west. That financing is enough for it not to be part of Armenia's national opposition, but serving foreign interests. This goes to any media.
But there is something more important than this all. It's about the state that our national opposition is, because of foreign financed medias and activists, that dilute public support and trust in opposition in general and strengthen governments hand.
I will bring some samples as to how paid activists and media have actually damaged true opposition in armenia.

Here in a protest rally, few gey rights acivists with gey flags are trying to embed themselfs with Azadamardiks in order to be seen by their sponsors as doing their job and having public support. Watch Female Azadamardik Susanna Margarian's reaction. Would paid for gender activists care much about what the azadamardiks were protesting for really or they were just after their paycheck by oversieas sponsors? They just discredit in people's eyes this particular azadamardik protest with their narrow interest display.

Here is another clip of Vardges Gaspari earning his paycheck from sponsors. Watch how he does it and keeps glancing to camera to make sure he is being filmed. How else to prove sponsors that he is doing good job for his employers?

This is how sponsored opposition kills our fight. This is how a sponsored media publishing kills our debates.

Here is another link to a commentary about sponsored activism. Though this guy is an extreme and alcoholik, but the points are true about sponsored opposition in web. It is in Armenian and allmost impossible to translate. I wish he could write in english too.
http://vahramsahakian.com/?p=3301

Vrej, about your consistent "lragir" postings, are they to fill out the tabs for the sponsors approval or for thrue patriotic ideas?
Becase more than once I have invited you to start posting and discussing with your own words and ideas so we could have a true conversation about and opposing the corrupt government but you just start and end everything with "lragir".
A true patriot does not start his/her day by "My government is none existant", "My government has been usurped", "Our intelligentsia is sold out", "this side is my enemy and this side is my idoll" "my government is giving up Artsakh".
There has to be true unbiased discussion about all the sides and whatever is beneficial for the country. There cannot be a sponsored patriotism.
Maybe you guys would think that I am crazy, for the next statement I am going to make, but for me, our oligarkhs are sponsored by our country(by robbing national resources, the way the oligarkhs exist). But the ones like "lragir" and all the other foreign sponsoreds from both sides are feeding off from someone elses hand that are not friends to my nation. As crazy as this idea is, but maybe first we should get rid of all the kinds of "sponsored" political entities in order to build a country?
And it is time for you, Vrej, to drop "lragir" alone and come forward, so we can discuss real matters. Not daily sensations about how our government is "trying to sell Armenia or give up Artsakh".
If anybody wants a better future for Armenia, He/she must have an ideal as to what it shall be. Not to become mired in twisted or half thruths because of some who scream lauder and more radical because they are paid more for sertain things a and less for some other.

My dear,
I invite you to read well what I wrote, and stop the typical agitprop technology of diluting and discrediting the other, by adding words in his idea: that's exactly what you do, when for some time now, you bring in gey problematic and BS, replying to my posts.
Please be kind and slightly honest, and drop that, since you will find not a word, in any of my posts, and I may pretty surely assume my quoted articles about that, if not on a much more negative way, that you could even dare: but for that, you must have some intellectual honesty.

Second, stop manipulating facts, stating I only post Lragir, since:
1- It is certainly not true, I post from at least a dozen sources: or you do not read everything, and are atracted only by the source Lragir, in wich case you must have a problem, or you are dishonest.
2- Stop saying I only quote articles, since I am one of the few, who tries, when my knowledge permits, and my time, my english... to vulgarise subjects that only perhaps a few do have interest to, but at least in my knowledge, are of a great importance: Just for ex: Sevan/Hydropower/Agriculture/Energy/Airports/Western Armenia/Islamised Armenians/Industry..... , your agitprop basic technology: state a lie, as often as possible, at the end it will always remain something....., dates back the times of Goebels and Stalin: please stop! If you dare, post at least a few interesting subjects, in place of defending here and there, by false affirmations and slander, your 'legality'.
3- You would like me to be a full time journalist, to write every day articles for you, in place of quoting.... I am not. Please be kind, go to any of your beloved and approoved media outlet, and you will find hand made, ready to be consumed articles for you.... , and by the way, if you have the kindness, you would perhaps inform us the name and financial resources of that Approoved media ??

Some of the things you say about media manipulations, destabilisations, hijacking of public interest are quite true: but what that has to do with the subjects I post.????
I am not the lawyer of any media, and contrary what you try to impose as a format, each time you try to derail the debate, I always ask you to attack the subject, the content , not the container...... from now on, I will not reply to this kind of slander on this point, I will just sent back to this thread, any would be sensor.

Now, finally coming to the subject:
Do you honestly argue, that the Russian Army, at least part of the Russian Army, with the 'DA' of someone in the Kreml, did not attack NKR on the 13 of June 1992, on Shahumian and Martakert fronts??? (Todan/Puzluk-Erketch direction, Karachinar direction, Mir Bachir/leninavan Directions)???
If you do, then you are or a dishonest person, ("paid or forced to act like"), or you are very misinformed person.

Reality is sad, sometime tragic.
Refusing to face it might be a preservation instinct.
It turns criminal, when it concerns the security, of at least part of your Nation, more so if your refusal can ease the repitition of same scenario...
No one, in the current regime, and past ones, in my knowledge, did deny this evident fact, well known to all slightly concerned parts of our people, and all Artsakhians.
They are "forced" to, or willingly try, to ignore that tragic page, for their personal, or clan interests...., by bypassing it.
Try to find a quote, from Serjik, Levon, or Robert, denying this fact..., or any guy, more or less informed.
The Shahumyantzis will make a khorovadz of him, alive....

[Hakob]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

Some here, decided and defend, the idea that any media financed by the West, or supposed to, is automatically irrelevant or slanderous, and automatically, any argument their pages may present, are irrelevant, since their pages are financed by the West...

I personally believe, that the question is not senseless, as long as the rule is for every argument/point of view.
Why a Russian financed media is more credible, than a Western financed one??
From an armenian point of view, I do not see the difference, unless I accept, that we are already willingly russians...

And even more, even if a media is financed by "Armenian" sources, it is important to see, what kind of armenian finances are there??

As my point of view: Discuss and counter the arguments, the thesis, the facts that are present in every single article posted (CONTENT), rather than slander it using doubtful demonstrations based on the Media it is published in, and ONLY that (CONTAINER) seems not accepted, I propose every such bright mind the following in this thread:

1°/ Propose your 'Trust Worthy' source of Information (CONTAINER), not forgetting to mention its financial sources.

2°/ If you were a genuine Armenian Nationalist/Patriot, and you were against the policy of your government, considering its policy counter to the National Interests: IN WICH MEDIA WOULD YOU PUBLISH YOUR ARTICLE? i.e: Would that Media publish You???

My dear, the criticism is about consistently spreading propaganda tru sponsored media instead of discussions in a forum, where public has come to find some true facts with members input and true discussions and debates. Especially when that media is publishing the facts twisted and is meant by it's publishers to spread despair among population and instigating public unrest at any cost, not serving the true opposition but just to satisfy it's sponsors. And that goes to any media and publishing, be it pro west or proeast.
You have been posting "lragir's articles and defending them at any cost when some of that articles are nothing more than low level, untruthfull and biased, fabricated propaganda, starting and ending with "sold out government", "inept intelligencia", "usurped independence" and such. Designed to "condition and controll" minds, rather than healthy political conversation.
Should we go back to posts #878-886 in "is russia an ally or foe nowadays" thread, in which igor mouradian was trying to implant an idea in public "memory" that there has been a russian invasion early in Artsakh war and in his way was accusing and discrediting whole Armenian "intelligensia", military and most freedom fighters of being part of conspiracy by not "condemning" that subject for 20+ years?
Should we go back to post #905 in same thread, where Naira Hayrumian was mocking whole Armenian population of being in between russia's legs doing you know what, just because public did not protest putin's visit the way "laragir" and sponsors would have liked? (this anger towards Armenian public was essentially because display of lack of support and probably evidence of bad job by "lragir" and inc. in eyes of sponsors).
Or the posts #994-995 of the same thread where I showed that "lragir' gave more biased anti Armenian reporting than azeri media, about nursultan nazarbayev's conduct?
You admit yourself that lragir is financed by west. That financing is enough for it not to be part of Armenia's national opposition, but serving foreign interests. This goes to any media.
But there is something more important than this all. It's about the state that our national opposition is, because of foreign financed medias and activists, that dilute public support and trust in opposition in general and strengthen governments hand.
I will bring some samples as to how paid activists and media have actually damaged true opposition in armenia.

Here in a protest rally, few gey rights acivists with gey flags are trying to embed themselfs with Azadamardiks in order to be seen by their sponsors as doing their job and having public support. Watch Female Azadamardik Susanna Margarian's reaction. Would paid for gender activists care much about what the azadamardiks were protesting for really or they were just after their paycheck by oversieas sponsors? They just discredit in people's eyes this particular azadamardik protest with their narrow interest display.

Here is another clip of Vardges Gaspari earning his paycheck from sponsors. Watch how he does it and keeps glancing to camera to make sure he is being filmed. How else to prove sponsors that he is doing good job for his employers?

This is how sponsored opposition kills our fight. This is how a sponsored media publishing kills our debates.

Here is another link to a commentary about sponsored activism. Though this guy is an extreme and alcoholik, but the points are true about sponsored opposition in web. It is in Armenian and allmost impossible to translate. I wish he could write in english too.
http://vahramsahakian.com/?p=3301

Vrej, about your consistent "lragir" postings, are they to fill out the tabs for the sponsors approval or for thrue patriotic ideas?
Becase more than once I have invited you to start posting and discussing with your own words and ideas so we could have a true conversation about and opposing the corrupt government but you just start and end everything with "lragir".
A true patriot does not start his/her day by "My government is none existant", "My government has been usurped", "Our intelligentsia is sold out", "this side is my enemy and this side is my idoll" "my government is giving up Artsakh".
There has to be true unbiased discussion about all the sides and whatever is beneficial for the country. There cannot be a sponsored patriotism.
Maybe you guys would think that I am crazy, for the next statement I am going to make, but for me, our oligarkhs are sponsored by our country(by robbing national resources, the way the oligarkhs exist). But the ones like "lragir" and all the other foreign sponsoreds from both sides are feeding off from someone elses hand that are not friends to my nation. As crazy as this idea is, but maybe first we should get rid of all the kinds of "sponsored" political entities in order to build a country?
And it is time for you, Vrej, to drop "lragir" alone and come forward, so we can discuss real matters. Not daily sensations about how our government is "trying to sell Armenia or give up Artsakh".
If anybody wants a better future for Armenia, He/she must have an ideal as to what it shall be. Not to become mired in twisted or half thruths because of some who scream lauder and more radical because they are paid more for sertain things a and less for some other.

[Artashes]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

Some here, decided and defend, the idea that any media financed by the West, or supposed to, is automatically irrelevant or slanderous, and automatically, any argument their pages may present, are irrelevant, since their pages are financed by the West...

I personally believe, that the question is not senseless, as long as the rule is for every argument/point of view.
Why a Russian financed media is more credible, than a Western financed one??
From an armenian point of view, I do not see the difference, unless I accept, that we are already willingly russians...

And even more, even if a media is financed by "Armenian" sources, it is important to see, what kind of armenian finances are there??

As my point of view: Discuss and counter the arguments, the thesis, the facts that are present in every single article posted (CONTENT), rather than slander it using doubtful demonstrations based on the Media it is published in, and ONLY that (CONTAINER) seems not accepted, I propose every such bright mind the following in this thread:

1�/ Propose you 'Trust Worthy' source of Information (CONTAINER), not forgetting to mention its financial sources.

2�/ If you were a genuine Armenian Nationalist/Patriot, and you were against the policy of your government, considering its policy counter to the National Interests: IN WICH MEDIA WOULD YOU PUBLISH YOUR ARTICLE? i.e: Would that Media publish You???

Yes, your post makes sense.
As I scrutinize Lragir, I see a distinct one sided, highly slanted point of view. This clearly slanted point of view (IMO) and the way it is presented, reminds me of fox news in the USA.
Having said that, I still agree with you (Vrej) that the alternative choices are also questionable insofar as their unbiased claims are no less suspect than Lragir.
When you (Vrej) present sources in Armenian script, I find these sources do not always offer an English translation, so cannot comment at all as to their veracity.
I cannot find a single major news source in the USA or western media that attempts to be unbiased. They all seem to be propaganda machines and nothing more.
It is not that I think the Russians are saints in their dealings with us, but rather my clear understanding of the intent of USA/west with regards to further their interests at Armenia's expense.
My opinion is the west decided quite some time ago to sell us out. We don't count at all.
That does not mean I think Russia truly cares for us. In fact I agree with you (Vrej) in your concern about the relationship we have with Russia.
My point is --- we really don't have many (or any) viable options.
I clearly say, I think we have more chance to regain our true independence by choosing Russia over the FATAL cancer that is the Anglo/us schmuck and jive.
I don't see any media outlet from best known sources as unbiased, straight forward, honest depiction of what's happening.
Your boots on the ground comments are more prized by me than all the others.
Thanks for your input Vrej.
Artashes

[Vrej1915]

Re: Which Media outlet is allowed to read??

If they don't like your point of view the easiest way to discredit you is to attack your source....I see this all over the internet.
Vrej you should not let that discourage you.

With that said all media are biased to certain degree be it their protocols, sponsors, ratings, etc......they also make alot of mistakes on dates, names, type of aircraft or weapon...

I am glad that Hyclub news here is being covered more balanced by the members compared to say 5 years ago when it was all pro Russian.

Agree 100%
A perfectly independent Media is out of our reach, if ever possible.
That would imply a sufficient reader/consumer basis, solvable, and willing to pay for their everyday paper + no parallel, unofficial pressure by state structures, and oligarkhic paramilitary threats, etc....
We will never have it, and I'm first to deplore, in our foreseeable future.

Remains the policy of large spectrum, as much as you can afford, and picking articles containing worthy points.

The supposition that a poster must agree 100% of each of his quoted post (articles) on the internet is so absurd, I can not even argue on.... that would basically mean, that the poster is the journalist himself!
I assume, anybody has the right to post not only friendly, but certainly hostile articles too.
If not how are we supposed to be informed on the enemy's point of view?

Concerning the Media/containers, I repeat my first mentioned 2 questions, for anybody countering this view.