HOUSE & SENATE ADOPT $90 MILLION AID PACKAGE FOR ARMENIA

[Lilya]

once again, very true.

[vrej]

Once Armenians Turned Chrisitan it is then that our Golden Age emerged... yes we suffered, we faught and died for christianity.. and if we didnt we wouldnt be Armenian today... this is one fact armenian people who disregard religion dont look at... if we converted in 451 we would have been assimilated into persians.. if we converted in 1890's, 1915 we would of assimilated into the Turks...
YES WE HAVE BEEN RULED OVER BY THE OTTOMANS FOR CENTURIES, THE PERSIANS FOR CENTURIES, BUT IT IS BECAUSE WE ARE CHRISTIAN THAT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO ASSIMILATE US!!
And this stands true today as we fought for the Artzakh independance, and as we argue over Javakhk.

Yes some may see it as a curse.. i see it as our saviour from assimilation!

[SaSSoun]

YES WE HAVE BEEN RULED OVER BY THE OTTOMANS FOR CENTURIES, THE PERSIANS FOR CENTURIES, BUT IT IS BECAUSE WE ARE CHRISTIAN THAT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO ASSIMILATE US!!
And this stands true today as we fought for the Artzakh independance, and as we argue over Javakhk.

Yes some may see it as a curse.. i see it as our saviour from assimilation!

Could'nt agree with you more. vrej.

[Anonymouse]

Vrej I disagree with you on the grounds that Armenains could have maintained their pagan religion. Who says they were to roll over and convert to whatever religion? And mind you that the Armenians of today pale in comparison to the Armenians of yore.

Everyone from my Uncles to Aunts to family who are devoutly Christian to my neighbors etc, use the same exact argument that you are using, failing to recognize that Christianity is a political virus in the grand scheme of things. Compare the size of Armenia of the pagan era to that of Armenia now. On the contrary the size of both the country and the population has shrunk ever since it's conversion to the religiont hat teaches you to let your sword down and bow and give forth your next cheek for punishment. It pacified Armenians into a nothing but beasts of burden and precisely why they have been ruled by centuries. It made Armenians become a target for Muslims due to the Crusades. One wonders if Armenia would have been has maligned by the Islamic religion that hates infidels during the Crusades if Armenia had not been Christian.

[vrej]

Vrej I disagree with you on the grounds that Armenains could have maintained their pagan religion. Who says they were to roll over and convert to whatever religion? And mind you that the Armenians of today pale in comparison to the Armenians of yore.

Everyone from my Uncles to Aunts to family who are devoutly Christian to my neighbors etc, use the same exact argument that you are using, failing to recognize that Christianity is a political virus in the grand scheme of things. Compare the size of Armenia of the pagan era to that of Armenia now. On the contrary the size of both the country and the population has shrunk ever since it's conversion to the religiont hat teaches you to let your sword down and bow and give forth your next cheek for punishment. It pacified Armenians into a nothing but beasts of burden and precisely why they have been ruled by centuries. It made Armenians become a target for Muslims due to the Crusades. One wonders if Armenia would have been has maligned by the Islamic religion that hates infidels during the Crusades if Armenia had not been Christian.

If Armenians maintained their pagan religion they were eventually going to be assimilated with the Persians, Paganism was not going to last, as we see today.. which civilized country withholds paganism ? none.. every civilization adopted a religion as a means of advancing socially.. and those who did not were assimilated as other civilizations eventually did. You cannot compare the size of Armenia then and now without acknowleging the fact that we would not have an Armenia at all Without christianity. So it is either being for Accpeting christianity and having this small Armenia, or against accepting which would have inevitably lead to the assimlation and dissapearance of Armenia.

If we didnt accept christianity we would have ended up as turks or persians and we would be following their religion because Paganism after all came to an end.. would that be any better?

[Anonymouse]

We only assume they would have died out since we ourselves do not know what scenario might have spurned given randomness...

In any event, one could argue why Armenians couldn't have been both a group of people and a religion at the same time, as Jews are? Christianity was largely to defeat Rome, which worked. To argue that Christianity sustained Armenians is moot since Armenians worldwide now are already on the brink of extinction with regard to the demographic projections. Historically, instead of holding the sword, the Armenian held the cross and got his head removed. Currently, we are erecting more churches in Armenia as opposed to factories, or putting the money to better use for the people. Why is it Armenia has found itself in the same hopeless situation for the past 2000 years, relying on the same hopeless manmade creed?

[Lilya]

I strongly believe that Christianity wasnt a good move. What, you are going to rely on god to save you? Obviously we see from our own history, carrying our crosses to war, didnt bring god to our saviour. but if Armenia stuck with Paganism, they would not only be attacked by Muslims, but also by the Christians. at least with Paganism, we wouldnt be 'softened' by the teachings of Christianity. Drawing pretty pictures wont keep a country together. You need a well trained army, that knows how to be defensive and offensive. ..then we wouldnt have to be worried about being converted to the religions of other powerful nations., who knows maybe they would have been threatened of us. And as for Paganism not being a cilivized religion ~ Who knows what Armenian Paganism would have evolved to, maybe a very unique religion that defines us, and our country.

[Anonymouse]

Indeed, the last thing I want to do is to adhere to a Judaic doctrine.

[vrej]

Armenians have not held the cross in place of the sword in history, Armenians have helf the cross and thee sword together... Christianity was not the cause for our "softness" as a nation, rather the cause was the lifestyle of peace and love that was indented into our souls since the creation of armenians. Even before christianity we have suffored losses, just as much as after... Armenia had a strategic location throughout history having contact with all 3 seas and being the center of civilization and trade, and becasue of this had been the subject of conquering for millenia.

Christianity did not soften us because as Armenian christians we belive in forgiving and turning the other cheek but if our existance as a nation, and our religion is under threat then God will be with us in our war. If christianity had made us "soft" then why did Sourp Vartan Mamigonian and Hayr Ghevon Yeretz hold the sword in the name of Christ and God with 60,000 other men and faught 300,000 persians?
We as a nation were massacred iand oppressed inn 1880's and 1915 and many other years before that, because we lacked one thing.. we lacked the revolutionary spirit.. the church or religion was not stopping us from revolting for our rights.. it was our lifestyle and stubborn minds...
Haven't you guys learned of the "yergateh sherep" speach Khrimian Hyrig our church leader at the time gave?? He came from the berlin conference and told the Armenians "enough of this slave life... enough of giving our rights away to the enemy... We must fight with the sword, and not with our papers and words! we must revolt!" and this is when we began to realise what we must do to endure as a nation!

All of our armenian soldiers in the past and present were annointed and blessedby the church before going to war, preists themselves carried guns and faught alongside our soldiers.
God and Christ was with us in Artzakh... Many miracles occured on the battlefield you guys should look into if you havent...
Those thousands of churchs we have buildt everywhere in western armenia all are remaining proof of our exisistence as a civilized people, and await our return..
I STRONGLY BELEIVE THAT CHRISTIANITY DID NOT SOFTEN US UNGERNER.. IT MADE US CIVILIZED, IT LED US THE CORRECT WAY IN TIMES OF DESPAIRE... IT IS THE CAUSE OF OUR SURVIVAL AND CONTINUAL SURVIVAL AS ARMENIANS IN ARMENIA AND IN THE DIASPORA!!

[Anonymouse]

Armenians have not held the cross in place of the sword in history, Armenians have helf the cross and thee sword together... Christianity was not the cause for our "softness" as a nation, rather the cause was the lifestyle of peace and love that was indented into our souls since the creation of armenians. Even before christianity we have suffored losses, just as much as after... Armenia had a strategic location throughout history having contact with all 3 seas and being the center of civilization and trade, and becasue of this had been the subject of conquering for millenia.

This is purely an idealistic belief you see. It has no grounding in historical fact. The records show that Armenians were indeed softened and held the cross instead of the sword, that is what caused the overall loss of Armenian land and people and has now left it in a crippled state as we speak. "Peace and love" is such a hippie doctrine and Christianity preaching it is not going to bring it. "Peace and love" is what a utopia is about, not earth. Unfortuntely Armenians fell for the Christian guff. And Armenia held its borders of the center for trade strongly until accepting Christianity from which then the decline proceeded.

Christianity did not soften us because as Armenian christians we belive in forgiving and turning the other cheek but if our existance as a nation, and our religion is under threat then God will be with us in our war. If christianity had made us "soft" then why did Sourp Vartan Mamigonian and Hayr Ghevon Yeretz hold the sword in the name of Christ and God with 60,000 other men and faught 300,000 persians?
We as a nation were massacred iand oppressed inn 1880's and 1915 and many other years before that, because we lacked one thing.. we lacked the revolutionary spirit.. the church or religion was not stopping us from revolting for our rights.. it was our lifestyle and stubborn minds...
Haven't you guys learned of the "yergateh sherep" speach Khrimian Hyrig our church leader at the time gave?? He came from the berlin conference and told the Armenians "enough of this slave life... enough of giving our rights away to the enemy... We must fight with the sword, and not with our papers and words! we must revolt!" and this is when we began to realise what we must do to endure as a nation!

Vartan Mamigonian is a prime example of someone finally picking up the sword. You might argue that his quest was "protected by a divine power" but that is simply a matter of opinion and faith and again no grounding in realistic fact. The realistic fact is he took Armenians to battle and succeeded and overturned centuries of soft candy ass pacifists into fighters. Revolutionary spirit lacked because Christianity pacified Armenians. What you are describing is nationalistic ferver for survival, nothing stemming out of Christianity. Of course the survival factor came in a bit late since Armenia had already suffered for centuries but nonetheless it is the polar opposite of Christian doctrine.

All of our armenian soldiers in the past and present were annointed and blessedby the church before going to war, preists themselves carried guns and faught alongside our soldiers.
God and Christ was with us in Artzakh... Many miracles occured on the battlefield you guys should look into if you havent...
Those thousands of churchs we have buildt everywhere in western armenia all are remaining proof of our exisistence as a civilized people, and await our return..
I STRONGLY BELEIVE THAT CHRISTIANITY DID NOT SOFTEN US UNGERNER.. IT MADE US CIVILIZED, IT LED US THE CORRECT WAY IN TIMES OF DESPAIRE... IT IS THE CAUSE OF OUR SURVIVAL AND CONTINUAL SURVIVAL AS ARMENIANS IN ARMENIA AND IN THE DIASPORA!!

I'm afraid in the end I strongly disagree with you because the argument you are presenting is has no merit and is based on purely illusory and imaginitive thinking. How does being annointed and baptised make you any more of a better soldier? To believe that THAT somehow has bearing on being a soldier or not defies logic. Priests carrying guns and fighting is again the exact polar opposite of Christian doctrine. This goes back to Armenians realizing they must fight and this is common sense when you have been pestered for centuries, it had nothing to do with being Christian. Continual survival? Do you know that worldwide Armenians are nothing but 0.000000000000002 % of the population and continuing to decline, and more and more Armenians are losing cultural consciousness? The demographics of Armenia alone are a sad story, and I recommend you take a trip to the CIA factbook page where you can get a heads up on whats what. You have contradicted yourself because in the beginning you spoke of Christianity and peace and love and in the latter part of your post you speak of priests with guns. Obviously the argument that Christianity is what helped us survive holds no water.