HOUSE & SENATE ADOPT $90 MILLION AID PACKAGE FOR ARMENIA

[Lilya]

God and Christ was with us in Artzakh... Many miracles occured on the battlefield you guys should look into if you havent...
Those thousands of churchs we have buildt everywhere in western armenia all are remaining proof of our exisistence as a civilized people, and await our return..

taking Artsakh was the smartest thing Armenians have done in a while, its about time they stand up and fight for their land, (not counting the negative contributions it has made to Armenia's economy~ but then again what economy???)
but as for the churches we built in western Armenia- turks are slowly destroying them.. and we cant do anything about it. Now wouldnt it have been better if all that time and energy was put into building forts and training an army to defend Armenia? - so today we wouldnt have to dream about returning to our country. We are one of the oldest nationalities in existence today, but who cares about that but us? who is going to say ~ oh you Armenians are the rightful owners of this land because your ancient churches are built here. Every goverment cares about its own interests, and as long as turkey remains a strong ally to the 'all mighty' United States there basically wont be any justice for us. our history wont win us anything but pity (hopefully). What we needed many centuries ago was a strong, constant and unified army which we failed to attain - this was the main source of power for nations then. and what we need today is strong political influence, which requires money. Once again we fail to unify and gain that influence. no one is going to say you can have your country back because you were the first christians and turks came and drove you away. and the few individuals who help Armenia unfortunately wont make any significant changes for the long. run.

[vrej]

First of all the i did not say the peaceloveing aspect i talk about that is indented into our souls came from christianity so i do not contradict myself... i beleive it was indented in us since the creation of armenians... including by our mythical creator haig nahabed..
The beliefe i write about in my first paragraph are not idealistic, rather are historical fact...

Vartan Mamigonian's quest was actually protected by a divine power and this is grounded in historical Fact and you would come across this if you have read the actuall documentation of the story by "yeghisheh bameech".

Revolutionary spirit did not lack becasue of christianity, as i noted in my prior post which was not taken into concideration- the armenian church leader's khrimian hyrig's message to the armenian's in the 1880's "yergateh sherpeen jareh"
although fighting is an opposite of the christian doctrine, in regards to the Armenian chirch it is not, as long as the fighting is to preserve either religion or nation. this did not stem from pure christianity itselve rather it stemmed from the christianity we interpreted and fashioned to our nation.

My argument is not based on illusionary thinking and i will back it up with historical facts upon your request. i did not place the argument on being annointed or baptiszed to prove that it makes a better soldier rather i put it to prove that in times where war is needed the church is ready to aide in every way and by even holding the gun proving the armenian church did not soften the armenians rather it pushed for self-determination. you must read the historical facts before stating what is and what isnt fact or illusionary.

[vrej]

i agree with you Lilya that the fight for artzakh was indeed the smartest move for us armenians, and is infact a turning point in our history..

the victory in artzakh sybolizes our capabilities, and our determination to live free from oppression, and proves that we have finnally breaken ourselves from the chains of deprivation asa nation.. this will only lead to better things..

[vrej]

I would just like to add that christianity did not soften us or hold us back from protecting our rights with force, rather i agree it made us a target for non-christian countries.

this is proven from the Vartan Mamigonian battle which was in 451 where the church was involved , and is proven through historical fact, to the fight for independence in Artzakh in the 90's, until today... there are many instances in this large timespan that can be mentioned where the armenian church stood in solitude with our freedom fighters!

[Anonymouse]

I'm sorry Vrej but this is the silliest thing I've ever read:

Vartan Mamigonian's quest was actually protected by a divine power and this is grounded in historical Fact and you would come across this if you have read the actuall documentation of the story by "yeghisheh bameech".


You do realize what you just said didn't you? Arguing that Vartan and so and so fought or what not is historical fact. Whether divine influence was there cannot be proven. That is a matter of opinion. It's funny when someone is victorious it was "divine and protected by God" but when they lose would you say the same thing? It's just like all the atheletes who thank Jesus when they win but never mention his name when they lose.

[vrej]

by my usage of "divine power" i mean backed by the church, i didn't know the way you were using it in your argument..
i ment vartan mamigonian's quested was backed by the church

[Anonymouse]

Being backed by the church is one thing.

But to assert that God was on our side because we are Christian is a matter of opinion and one that cannot be proved.

As the historical record speaks, Armenian decline proceeded from the point of accepting Christianity as its state religion. It has done nothing to Armenians to benefit them. If you mean that the church helped fight well that's just a bunch of Armenians choosing to fight for their ethnic preservation, in no way tied to Christianity and irrespective of it. That is what you call nationalism.

And now as Lilya has pointed again, Armenia has wasted its energy and efforts and money throughout time to build useless churches, and for whom? While its people starved? This people has had its priorities xxxxed up backwards since day 1 and realize it yet they don't do anything about it. Instead they cling to age old and worn out doctrines and petty political squabbling.

Again Armenians fighting for self preservation is in a way due to being Christian and hunted down by muslims, etc. Remember Chrsitianity is just a religion that Armenians accepted, Armenian people and culture existed before Christianity and it was ironically the same Christians that burned and destroyed Armenian records of our past. The reason Armenians were hunted down more and more was due to the Crusades since most muslims had animosity towards Christians. One might as well argue that if Armenians hadn't been Christian they might not have been targets.

[vrej]

As the historical record speaks, Armenian decline proceeded from the point of accepting Christianity as its state religion. It has done nothing to Armenians to benefit them. If you mean that the church helped fight well that's just a bunch of Armenians choosing to fight for their ethnic preservation, in no way tied to Christianity and irrespective of it. That is what you call nationalism.

At this point all i see is repetition of the same arguments you had brought up before to which i proved my point to. Yes Armenian decline proceeded from the point of accepting Christianity, but not because it weakened us but because it made us different, this difference posed a threat to our non-christian neighbors. When i say the church helped fight i mean the Church many times LED THESE ARMENIANS TO FIGHT not onlyhelped but led and i already proved this point in the above arguments. This is in its all tied to christianity because yes christ said "turn the other cheek" and what happens when that cheek is hit? Christ said, when you read the bible, when it comes time were your religion and your rights are in danger go to the extent of selling even your clothing to buy a knife and fight evil. The Armenian Church differs from all others in many many ways, and what is taught by protestants and mormons etc.. are very different. The Armenian Apostolic Church led the Armenians to fight for their rights..

And now as Lilya has pointed again, Armenia has wasted its energy and efforts and money throughout time to build useless churches, and for whom? While its people starved?

i agree that we overdue it by building too many chruches but that is the government's fault.

Again Armenians fighting for self preservation is in a way due to being Christian and hunted down by muslims, etc. Remember Chrsitianity is just a religion that Armenians accepted, Armenian people and culture existed before Christianity and it was ironically the same Christians that burned and destroyed Armenian records of our past. The reason Armenians were hunted down more and more was due to the Crusades since most muslims had animosity towards Christians. One might as well argue that if Armenians hadn't been Christian they might not have been targets.

Exactly and if we were not Christian ? it can be proved that our culture and and people would have been assimilated. The only thing that kept us apart from the others when under foreign rule was the fact that we were christians and this allowd us not to be assimilated.. (and we have fallen under foreign rule even before christianity)

The Ottoman Turks wanted to create a panturanic empire (a Turkey for all the Turkic speaking, and muslim peoplein 1915), and it is because of this they attempted to kill every Armenian (Armenians having their own culture and religion) so that they can move eastward towards Azerbaijan, kazakisdan all the way to mongolia.. If We were christian or not we were going to be placed under the same circumstances or face assimilation, and there came a point were we spoke turkish, their came a point were our literature was destroyed.. and Christianity was the only thing left that set us apart from these Turks. Until today there are Armenians in Istanbul, where they are forced at times to speak Turkish in fear they will be looked at differently, they learn the Armenian language but are afarid to use it at times (i have many friends who have told me these things so im not making this up) but the only thing that keeps them from assimilation is the Armenian church, which keeps the Armenian Values, Language, Literature, and stands against assimilation.

Sorry if every thing is all mixed up and confusing but i had to rush to write this reply cus i had stuff to do.. but yah we are just repeating the same points over and over again...

[Anonymouse]

It made us different? What's another word for weaker? Different? Clouding arguments in euphemisms isn't going to change the premise that Armenian culture began its downward spiral because Christianity made them weaker/and or different, no matter how you choose to hyphenate it.

"This is in its all tied to christianity because yes christ said "turn the other cheek" and what happens when that cheek is hit? Christ said, when you read the bible, when it comes time were your religion and your rights are in danger go to the extent of selling even your clothing to buy a knife and fight evil. The Armenian Church differs from all others in many many ways, and what is taught by protestants and mormons etc.. are very different. The Armenian Apostolic Church led the Armenians to fight for their rights.."

That's exactly what's wrong with Christianity. Everyone believes they are right. And how can either side prove anything? They can't. As far as what led Armenians to fight for their "right" whatever you mean by that and I'll assume its survival, it was ethnic identity not Christianity that helped Armenians fight for their survival. Armenians had fought for their survival way before Christianity. Ethnic concsiousness for survival shouldn't be confounded with Christianity. Sure the Church helped but not because Armenians wanted to preserve Christianity but rather their ethnic identity first and foremost. That is where the argument crumbles.

[vrej]

Anon, i dont mean weaker by different... different because we were christian and they were not.. and christianity begining to spread caused it to be a threat to them.

"Armenians had fought for their survival way before Christianity. Ethnic concsiousness for survival shouldn't be confounded with Christianity. Sure the Church helped but not because Armenians wanted to preserve Christianity but rather their ethnic identity first and foremost. That is where the argument crumbles."

then how do explain the 1.5 milion Armenians who were massacred during the armenian genocide, and thousdands before that, and how they refused to accept the islamic faith, and refused to renounce christ and God and declined assimilation.. armenians could have easily accepted the muslim faithand become assimilated in to this pan turcic dream... yes you are right christianity didnt play the largest role in our revolution and defence.. but it played a very important role in stopping assimilation and raising the faith in people's hearts especially the fedayi's this is clearly evident.