Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

[Armenian]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

Turkey have to accept Armenian Genocide and Cyprus is a Greek island, i think president Erdogan ll accept it

Oh, really?

Rajab Tayyib Erdogan: It is a daydream to expect Turkey to recognize the alleged “Armenian genocide”

“It is a daydream to expect Turkey to recognize the so-called Armenian genocide. We’ll not change our position regarding the alleged “Armenian genocide”. Let no one expect us to change our position,” Turkey’s Prime Minister Rajab Tayyib Erdogan said while commenting on the European Parliament’s today’s decision urging Turkey to recognize the alleged “Armenian genocide”

Link: http://en.apa.az/news.php?id=13900

The reality is we Armenians don't really want your recognition: http://forum.armenianclub.com/showthread.php?t=4648

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

Turkey have to accept Armenian Genocide

It is not a matter of accepting it - it is simply a matter of not denying it. These two things are entirely different. The Turkish parrots always rhyme off the usual 'but France does not admit committing genocide in Algeria' or similar rubish. Regardless of the historical accuracy of that statement, the French State does not give millions of dollars to groups to deny such allegations, or pay for the publication of countless books denying such allegations, or imprison or threaten to imprison (or worse) persons who make such allegations.

[karoaper]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

It is not a matter of accepting it - it is simply a matter of not denying it. These two things are entirely different. The Turkish parrots always rhyme off the usual 'but France does not admit committing genocide in Algeria' or similar rubish. Regardless of the historical accuracy of that statement, the French State does not give millions of dollars to groups to deny such allegations, or pay for the publication of countless books denying such allegations, or imprison or threaten to imprison (or worse) persons who make such allegations.

That's actually a key point. No other country (except for Israel) has sustained such an expensive and subversive effort for so long to keep certain facts from reaching global media outlets and being accepted by governments and agencies.

[Vako]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

126 HOLOCAUST SCHOLARS AFFIRM THE INCONTESTABLE FACT OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND URGE WESTERN DEMOCRACIES TO OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZE IT

At the Thirtieth Anniversary of the Scholars’ Conference on the Holocaust and the Churches, convening at St. Joseph University, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, March 3-7, 2000, one hundred twenty-six Holocaust scholars, holders of Academic Chairs and Directors of Holocaust Research and Studies Centers, participants in the conference, signed a statement affirming that the World War I Armenian Genocide is an incontestable historical fact and accordingly urge the governments of Western Democracies to recognize it as such. The petitioners, among whom is Nobel Laureate for Peace Elie Wiesel, who was the keynote speaker at the conference, also asked the Western Democracies to urge the Government and Parliament of Turkey to finally come to terms with a dark chapter of Ottoman-Turkish history and to recognize the Armenian Genocide. This would provide an invaluable impetus to the process of the democratization of Turkey.

Below is a partial list of the signatories:

Prof. Yehuda Bauer
Distinguished Professor,
Hebrew University,
Director, The International
Institute of Holocaust
Research, Yad Vashem,
Jerusalem

Prof. Israel Charny, Director,
Institute of the Holocaust and
Genocide, Jerusalem,
Professor of Hebrew University;
Editor-in-Chief of The
Encyclopedia of Genocide

Prof. Ward Churchill,
Ethnic Studies,
The University of Colorado,
Boulder

Prof. Stephen Feinstein, Director
Center for Holocaust and
Genocide Studies,
University of Minnesota

Prof. Saul Friedman, Director,
Holocaust and xxxish Studies,
Youngstown State University,
Ohio

Prof. Edward Gaffney,
Valparaiso University
Law School

Prof. Zev Garber,
Los Angeles Valley College

Prof. Dorota Glowacka,
University of King’s College,
Halifax, Nova Scotia

Dr. Irving Greenberg, President,
xxxish Life Network

Prof. Herbert Hirsch,
Virginia Commonwealth
University

Prof. Irving L. Horowitz,
Hannah Arendt Distinguished
Professor,Rutgers University, NJ

Dr. Steven Jacobs, Rabbi,
Temple Sinai Shalom,
Huntsville, Alabama
Associate Editor of The
Encyclopedia of Genocide

Prof. Steven Katz,
Distinguished Professor,
Director, Center for Judaic
Studies,
Boston University

Prof. Richard Libowitz,
Temple University

Dr. Marcia Littell,
Stockton College,
Exec. Director, Scholars’
Conference on the Holocaust and
the Churches

Franklin H. Littell,
Distinguished Professor of
Holocaust and Genocide Studies,
Stockton College
Co-founder, Annual Scholars’
Conference on the Holocaust and
the Churches

Prof. Hubert G. Locke,
Washington University,
Co-founder, Annual Scholars’
Conference on the Holocaust and
the Churches

Dr. Elizabeth Maxwell,
Executive Director of the
International Scholarly
Conference on the Holocaust,
London, England

Prof. Erik Markusen,
Southwest State University, MN

Prof. Saul Mendlowitz,
Dag Hammerskjold Distinguised
Professor of International Law,
Rutgers University

Prof. Jack Needle, Director
Center for Holocaust Studies,
Brookdale Community College
Lincroft, NJ

Dr. Philip Rosen, Director,
Holocaust Education
Center of the Delaware
Valley

Prof. Alan S. Rosenbaum,
Dept. of Philosophy,
Cleveland State University

Prof. Richard Rubinstein,
President Emeritus, and
Distinguished Professor of
Religion,
University of Bridgeport, CT

William L. Shulman, President,
Association of Holocaust
Organizations,
City University of New York

Prof. Samuel Totten,
The University of Arkansas,
Assoc. Editor of
The Encyclopedia
of Genocide

Prof. Elie Wiesel,
Andrew W. Mellon Professor in
the Humanities,
Boston University;
Founding Chairman of the United
States Holocaust Memorial
Council;
Nobel Laureate for Peace



I hereby declare that the originals of these 126 signatures are on file in my office.
All affiliations supplied are for identification purposes only.
Dr. Stephen Feinstein, Director,
Center for Holocaust and Genocide Studies, University of Minnesota


AFFIRM THE INCONTESTABLE FACT OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND URGE WESTERN DEMOCRACIES TO OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZE IT

126 HOLOCAUST SCHOLARS AFFIRM THE INCONTESTABLE FACT OF THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE AND URGE WESTERN DEMOCRACIES TO OFFICIALLY RECOGNIZE IT

[Armenian]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

GERMAN PARLIAMENTARIAN: TURKEY HAS TO RECOGNIZE WHAT IT HAD DONE TO ARMENIAN PEOPLE DURING OSMAN EMPIRE

Berlin, September 4. ArmInfo. Turkey has to recognize the crime
against the Armenian people during the Osman Empire, Jorg Tauss, the
member of Social-Democratic party of Germany, the deputy Chairman
of the German-Caucasian Parliamentary Friendly Group, told ArmInfo
correspondent during the press-conference in the German Bundestag.

The politician noted that Germany is interested in a stable
development of the South-Caucasian region. "Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia
are of interest to Germany from the viewpoint of economy and politics
first of all. This interest is not limited only by oil availability
in Azerbaijan, the region is of interest from the viewpoint of
geographic position, strategic importance and closeness to Iran",
he noted. According to him, the region is also considered a cradle
of mankind, which is of great interest. "The discussions at the
political level are being held on the problem between Armenia and
Azerbaijan around Nagorno Karabakh conflict, as well as the closed
borders and relations with Turkey. All the listed aspects adversely
affect the development of relations", the German Parliamentarian
said. "The secret is in a combined development of countries of the
South Caucasus as a region in whole ", Jorg Tauss said. He added that
"Armenia-Turkey closed borders is a scandal since all the countries
of the South Caucasus, including Azerbaijan, suffer",

The Politician

[skhara]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

^^^

So what's Germany's game here?

They have not officially recognized the Armenian Genocide -- not like France, Russia, or Poland, they are very careful about what wording they use, but they have made some somewhat pro-Armenian statements in the past. Although I don't recall Germans ever being unfriendly to turks.

[karoaper]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

^^^

So what's Germany's game here?

They have not officially recognized the Armenian Genocide -- not like France, Russia, or Poland, they are very careful about what wording they use, but they have made some somewhat pro-Armenian statements in the past. Although I don't recall Germans ever being unfriendly to turks.

Germany's role in the Genocide has been well documented. At the very least they gave the bastards their approval and things like weapons and logistics, not to do what they did to Armenians but to fight the Russians, the English. But still the logistics, weapons played a role in the Genocide I'm sure. Germans know this and perhaps it could explain their cold feet.

[TomServo]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

Well the poetic Turkish community in Germany will probably keep working to make sure it's never recognized.

[Armenian]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

Chirac calls for Turkey to recognise WW1 Armenian genocide

President Jacques Chirac has begun a two day visit to Armenia. The French leader paid his respects at a monument to thousands of people who were killed in the area during the World War One. Chirac used the occasion to urge Turkey to recognise the 1915 to 1919 massacres at the hands of the former Ottoman Turk regime. He said "All countries grow up acknowledging their dramas and their errors." According to Armenian sources, more than 1.5 million people died in mass killings and deportations. They claim the deaths amounted to genocide. But Turkey, which wants to be a member of the EU, continues to reject this and says the total number of deaths were nearer a quarter- of- million and sparked by an internal conflict.

Source: http://euronews.net/create_html.php?...e=382599&lng=1

[Armenian]

Re: Why Turkey will never be admitted into the European Union

Turkey condemns 'genocide' vote

Turkish lawmakers watching the lower house of the French parliament debate a bill making it illegal to deny the mass killing of Armenians was genocide. (AP)

Turkey has condemned a French parliamentary vote which would make it a crime to deny that Armenians suffered "genocide" at the hands of the Turks. Turkey called it a "serious blow" to relations and has threatened sanctions. The vote was also criticised by the EU. The bill, tabled by the opposition but opposed by the French government, needs approval from the Senate and president. Armenia says Ottoman Turks killed 1.5 million people systematically in 1915 - a claim strongly denied by Turkey. There are accusations in Turkey that the Armenian diaspora and opponents of Turkey's European Union membership bid are using the issue to stop it joining the 25-member bloc.

'Unfounded'

Turkey has been warning France for weeks not to pass the bill which was sponsored by the opposition Socialist party. It provides for a year in jail and a 45,000-euro (£30,000) fine - the same punishment that is imposed for denying the Nazi Holocaust. "Turkish-French relations, which have been meticulously developed over the centuries, took a severe blow today through the irresponsible initiatives of some short-sighted French politicians, based on unfounded allegations," the Turkish foreign ministry said.

The BBC's Sarah Rainsford in Istanbul says many Turks are angry at what they see as double standards in the EU, where opinions are sharply divided about whether Turkey should be allowed to join. The European Commission has said that if the bill becomes law it will "prohibit dialogue which is necessary for reconciliation" between Turkey and Armenia. The official Turkish position states that many Christian Armenians and Muslim Turks died in fighting during World War I - but that there was no genocide.

But public debate on the issue has been stifled in Turkey. The French vote came as controversial Turkish writer Orhan Pamuk won the 2006 Nobel Prize in Literature. He has faced prosecution in Turkey for talking about the murder of hundreds of thousands of Armenians during World War I and thousands of Kurds in subsequent years. The charges have since been dropped.

Celebration and concern

The French governing Union for a Popular Movement (UMP) did not back the bill, but gave its deputies a free vote. It passed by 106 votes to 19, after most deputies left the chamber in protest against what critics say is an attempt to attract votes of the some 500,000 people of Armenian descent in presidential elections next year. Ethnic Armenians in Paris celebrated the result. "The memory of the victims is finally totally respected," said Alexis Govciyan. But French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin distanced himself from the bill. It is "not a good thing to legislate on issues of history and of memory," he said.

Story from BBC NEWS:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/europe/6045838.stm

France acts to outlaw denial of genocide
By Thomas Crampton International Herald Tribune

PARIS The National Assembly, defying appeals from Turkey, approved legislation Thursday that would make it a crime to deny that mass killings of Armenians in Turkey during and after World War I were genocide. Denounced by Ankara and criticized by the European Union, the legislation could further complicate talks for Turkey's admission to the EU.

Of the 577 members of the Assembly, 106 deputies voted in favor and 19 against, while 4 abstained and 448 did not vote at all, raising the question of whether there will be enough political will to push the legislation through the Senate. If it is to become law, the Senate must also approve the measure. The law would set fines of as much as €45,000, or about $56,000, and a year in prison for denying that the killing of Armenians by Ottoman Turks was genocide. In 2001, France formally recognized as genocide the killings of as many as 1.5 million Armenians from 1915 to 1919.

Turkey denies allegations of genocide, disputing the number of deaths and premeditation in the killings, saying that tens of thousands of Armenians and Turks were killed in chaotic civil unrest after Armenian groups supported Russia during the war. "The Turkish people refuse the limitation of freedom of expression on the basis of groundless claims," the Turkish Foreign Ministry said in a statement. "With this draft law, France unfortunately loses its privileged status in the eyes of Turkish public opinion."

Ali Babacan, Turkey's economics minister who also heads Ankara's talks with the EU, said he could not rule out consequences for French companies. "What happened in France today we believe is not in line with the core values of the European Union," Babacan said, adding that the government would not encourage a boycott of French goods. "As the government of Turkey, we are not encouraging something like that. But this is the people's decision." In Brussels, the European Union warned that the law could harm efforts at reconciliation over the killings.

"It would prohibit dialogue which is necessary for reconciliation on the issue," said an EU spokeswoman, Krisztina Nagy. "It is not up to law to write history. Historians need to have debate." After the vote, the government of President Jacques Chirac, which did not support the law, expressed eagerness for dialogue with Turkey and said the legislation was unnecessary and inopportune. "We are very committed to dialogue with Turkey, as well as to the strong ties of friendship and cooperation which link us to that country," said Jean-Baptiste Mattei, a spokesman for the French Foreign Ministry.

The Armenian issue has complicated the country's bid for EU membership. Chirac and the two leading contenders to replace him in elections next May - Nicolas Sarkozy, the conservative interior minister, and Ségolène Royal, a Socialist - all say Ankara must acknowledge the genocide before gaining EU membership. Can Baydarol, a Turkish analyst of the EU, said that although the decision of Parliament seemed to have no direct effect on relations with the bloc, the hostile attitude of France demonstrated the obstacles to full membership if a consensus among EU members is necessary for a final decision on Turkey.

"Now people see that more than the technical details, political maneuvers will mark the years-long process on way to full membership," Baydarol said. "I think, at a public level, not the EU but France is going to pay the price of this decision." Meanwhile, officials in Azerbaijan, which has close cultural and economic ties with Turkey, denounced the vote. "The discussion of the bill is absurd and the presentation of the issue is illogical," Deputy Foreign Minister Khalaf Khalafov said at a news conference, according to Interfax. "The adoption of the bill contradicts basic human rights and freedoms because people have a right to freedom of thought and freedom of obtaining information, and the bill may violate and limit the freedom of thought."

Azerbaijan fought a war in the early 1990s with Armenia over possession of Nagorno-Karabakh, a mountainous region inside its internationally recognized borders that both nations claim. The French legislators voted against a backdrop of political jousting before presidential elections next spring, with politicians in both major camps split on the wisdom of the genocide bill, but all aware that the issue of Turkey's potential entry into the EU is political dynamite. Two prominent national newspapers, Le Monde and Le Figaro, opposed the law. Le Monde said that while denying the genocide of xxxs in Germany amounts to anti-Semitism and is worthy of criminal prosecution, arguments over the Armenian genocide should be resolved through diplomatic means.

Although most of France's top politicians, from Chirac on down, supported the EU's planned constitution, the French rejected it last year in a referendum that was also seen as a vote against further EU expansion. The problem for politicians seeking to succeed Chirac is how to oppose Turkish entry without taking on the xenophobic tones of the far-right. Royal, the leading Socialist presidential contender, said Wednesday that Turkey "obviously" would have to "recognize the Armenian genocide" if it wished to enter the EU, adding: "My opinion is that of the French people." She supported the genocide bill.

But two other senior Socialists, Dominique Strauss-Kahn and Jack Lang, had reservations about the bill, which raises questions of freedom of speech in the same way as France's legislation making denial of the Holocaust a crime. On the center-right, Sarkozy is against Turkish EU entry but kept silent about the Socialist-sponsored genocide bill. His aides were split, with François Fillon against it but Patrick Devedjian, who is of Armenian descent, strongly backing it, according to Le Figaro.

With roughly 500,000 citizens claiming Armenian origin, France has one of Europe's largest Armenian populations. Prominent French people of Armenian descent include the singer Charles Aznavour, the former prime minister Édouard Balladur and the chief executive officer of the telecommunications company Alcatel, Serge Tchuruk. "Today we took another very important further step to fight against those who deny the Armenian genocide," said Harout Mardirossian, spokesman for the Coordination Council for Armenian Organizations in France. "Armenians have fought long and hard for this law in France." Mardirossian emphasized that the law should not be taken as anti- Turkish.

"This law is not intended to be against Turkey, but against extremists in all countries, including Turkey," Mardirossian said. "We now have a tool to use against those who deny Armenian genocide, just like the law against denying the genocide in Germany." His organization has filed three lawsuits in recent years against people denying the Armenian genocide. Successful suits included those against a historian, Bernard Lewis, and an encyclopedia, Quid, while a suit against a Turkish Embassy Web site failed due to diplomatic protections, Mardirossian said.

[...]

Source: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/10/12/news/france.php