Is Turkey Going Islamist?

[Armenian]

what did you understand my "case" here to be? i am levelling accusations at a small ideological group of people, not at an entire religion/racial group.

Bezjian you had an excellent post. Don't pay attention to that drunken thing.

Jews, in general, are just as vile as Turks. The only difference between Jews and Turks - the Jews only do things behind your back. Also, Jews, when possible, like to have others do their dirty work.

As far as Morganthau is concerned, he was an American ambassador within Turkey. Thus, he represented America at a time when America was, more or less, at war with Turkey. The Jew factor does not play into this.

What self-hating morons within the Armenian community fails to mention, however, is that the very founding fathers of Israel - Hertzel and Jabotinsky - openly and directly encouraged the Turkish authorities to carry out their plans against the Armenians. They did so to win land favors within Ottoman administerd Palestine. This is all very well documented.

Our biggest obstacle within the world today is not Turkey, its not the US State Department - its the Jewish lobby in Washington, the lobby that which represents ALL MAJOR JEWISH ORGANIZATIONS IN THE WORLD. However, there is the occasional individual Jew that gives us *lip* service.

Simply put, Jews - as a nation and as a culture - are evil filth. There will be no peace in the Middle East as long as these two abominations - Turkey and Israel - exist in any from.

When the Armenians escaping the Turkish genocide settled in Palestine they were welcomed (by the Arabs). The genocide was ominously defended by Vladimir Jabotinsky and other Zionists in their attempts to obtain Turkish support.

The quote is from a book writen by a secular Jew (considered to be a traitor and self-hating by most Jews) that all Armenians need to read: http://www.marxists.de/middleast/schoenman/ch02.htm

[Red Brigade]

I never knew that there were so many Jewish members in the CUP.Its quite shocking.But it sounds very logical.Thessalonica was the capital of the Jewish community from the 14th century,when the Jews were persecuted out from Spain, up untill WWII.I don't know.The Greeks and the Armenian communities were indeed controling significant part of the economy of Turkey.Their biggest competitors have been the Jews.Which makes logical that the Jews will dislike us.Also all those Genocide Historian deniers are Jews as well.Israel is ally of turkey.The Jews are doing the lobby for Turkey in Israel.The White House is full of Jews.The richest men of earth are jews again.I 'm not going to blame an entire race for all the horrid things like most do.But there is obviously someting wrong here. The CUP wanted to create an ethnicaly pure Turkey and all Muslims were considered Turks(Laz,Armenians,Greeks,Kurds,Assyrians,if you belonged in the muslim religion nothing would happen to you) and again nothing happened to the Jews,who were not Muslims.But then again the Greeks had declared a war against the Turks from west and the Armenians were fighting in the eastern front.But still it makes you wondering...

[bezjian]

So certain Jews were key players in the CUP (and there are more then you named and some behind the scenes who played some interesting dual roles with CUP and Russian revolutions) - but I say so what?

are you joking? that's like saying, "so there were turks involved in the cup, so what?". can you imagine how much they would screw us if it was suddenly discovered that there were a few armenians in the nazi party? give me a break winoman.

i'm not saying turks and jews were equally responsible for the genocide. you are going to point out that abdul hamit was a butcher of armenians and was also disliked by jews. but abdul hamit's aim was never to exterminate and wipe out armenians, because his goal was to preserve the caliphate and integrity of the ottoman empire. armenians, due to their importance to the ottoman tax base, were essential members of the ottoman citizenry (the "armenian bankers of galata" feature prominently in the literature). they also played an important role in the modernization of the empire. throughout their history the ottomans used threats of murder and violence to extract as much tax from armenians as they wanted or needed. jews were accepted into the ottoman empire following their expulsion from spain not because the sultan was especially compassionate but because of the potential financial benefits of having an economically successful race of people in the empire. the idea to exterminate the armenians came from the young turks after the caliphate had ended. armenian makes a good point, zionists had great incentive to remove abdul hamit since he had refused the idea of creating a national home for jews in palestine. the fairest way to describe the young turk movement then was that it represented a convergence of interests, those of the zionists and those of the liberal turkish bourgeoisie. they took advantage of a mass of balkan and caucasian muslims seething with anger at christians who expelled them from their homes in the balkan wars, to carry out the extermination of the armenians. again i would like to draw comparisons between the young turk movement and the neocons of today - one part zionist and one part the native anglo-saxon military-industrial complex and free market/oil industry crowd (witness halliburton charging the pentagon thousands of dollars for toilet seat covers, all those bombs dropped on iraq, etc. have you seen the latest profit margins of the defense contractors? these people are making boat loads off the carnage in iraq). i don't think pan-turkism figures all that prominently in this to be honest, there was a very weak sense of national identity among the muslim subjects of the empire (w/ the exception of the arabs maybe). your identity was first muslim, second turk, kurd, laz, cherkess or whatever. indeed we have seen that it was jews like tekin alp who played the leading role in creating a "turkish" identity, which later spawned the azeri and tatar identities. behind this was probably the creation of national identities in the areas of the turkish and russian empires, since disintegration of the ottoman was seen as the best way to carve out a jewish home in palestine, and tatar nationalism was used against the anti-jew czarist regime.

i think what you need to do winoman is study this israeli-palestinian conflict a bit more closely. go back to the roots of it and learn how it evolved. it's true palestine always had a native jewish population, a small minority until recently. there was a common culture there between jews and arabs (and armenians as well), much the same way there was a common culture in the cities of ottoman turkey between turks, greeks, armenians, jews. there was little friction between arabs and jews in those times, and you will find the same situation in other parts of the arab world, iraq, the maghreb, yemen. the same is true for persia. in the 19th century persecution of jews in europe (pogroms, etc) started to pick up. this happened to jews throughout their history in europe, in many parts (spain, italy, germany, russia, britain, etc.). i'm sure jews suffered discrimination in arab lands as well throughout history, but nothing compared to what they experienced in europe. the european jews, culturally european - they even look european, from all the intermarriage and conversion that took place over the centuries - couldn't imagine picking up and moving into the arab countries or persia. though some of them did, even ottoman turkey was too "oriental" for them (witness the virulent racism, as bad as any white supremacist's, they display towards arabs today. meanwhile they are supposed to be semitic! see here for an example of this). they needed a home all to themselves. they started to immigrate into palestine in the late 19th century. the palestinian arabs accepted these refugees into their lands, as they would later do with the armenians fleeing turkish massacres. it was the typical hospitality common to middle-eastern cultures that allowed jews fleeing persecution to settle on palestinian lands. (contrast this with anglo-saxon attitudes towards immigration and refugees from other countries). the armenians who settled there were appreciative of their hosts. coming from another part of the ottoman empire they probably had more in common culturally with the palestinian arabs than the european jews did. jews though are a different story. immediately they started to act like the place was theirs. the land was theirs to take, whether or not palestinians were living on it or not. no appreciation that a people gave them a second chance on life. the arabs for them were filthy animals, with no history or culture, something to be sh*t on. they never made any effort to coexist with the arabs, they just tried to take as much as they could from them for themselves. did armenians in the countries to which they fled ever turn on and disrespect their hosts? wherever armenians ended up, syria, lebanon, iraq, palestine, cyprus, egypt, ethiopia, south america they were liked and made a good name for themselves (armenians in europe and the u.s. sometimes faced discrimination but this was due to white racism more than anything else). to me this is the difference between armenians and jews. it is the jews' sense of exceptionalism, which comes from the fundamental premise of their religion, which explains their contemptuous attitude towards other people. i mean, what a joke, jews are allowed to take over all of palestine because 2000 years ago there were people called jews who lived there, and some ancient text (written by jews of course) says it is the land of the jews? too bad the native americans don't have such a text. do you know how many wars there would be in the world right now if that was considered a legitimate principle in international affairs?

to conclude i offer you one last tidbit, taken from the blight of asia (about the destruction of smyrna 1922), by george horton, consul and consul-general of the united states in the near east:

As the Armenians had all disappeared from the streets, it was supposed that the men who had escaped had taken refuge in their own quarter, a well-built, Europeanized section of the town, within well-defined limits. Before proceeding to what happened next, it should be explained that the soldiers were helped in picking out Armenians in the streets by native spies, who accompanied them and pointed out victims. I could not recognize the nationality of those foul and slimy reptiles, the spies. I was told by some that they were Jews, but I have no proof to substantiate the statement. Of course many of the informers were Turks, and it is possible that they were all of that race, as they would naturally aid their own troops.

When Armenian hunting became too poor in the streets of Smyrna, their precinct was closed to all except Turks by soldiers stationed at the street entrances, after which the sack and massacre were conducted methodically. I did not myself attempt to enter the Armenian section, but I was repeatedly informed by those with whom I was in contact that ingress was not permitted. Americans who saw into the quarter from their windows, stated that there was not a house that escaped, so far as could be seen. All were broken into, looted, the furniture smashed and thrown into the streets. What happened to the inhabitants can easily be left to the imagination it is easy to form a mental picture of those families, cowering in their homes, with their wives, their daughters and their babes, waiting for the crash of a rifle butt on their doors.

[Armenian]

it is the jews' sense of exceptionalism, which comes from the fundamental premise of their religion, which explains their contemptuous attitude towards other people. i mean, what a joke, jews are allowed to take over all of palestine because 2000 years ago there were people called jews who lived there, and some ancient text (written by jews of course) says it is the land of the jews? too bad the native americans don't have such a text. do you know how many wars there would be in the world right now if that was considered a legitimate principle in international affairs?

Bezjian, I could not figure out which part of your excellent reply to compliment, because the whole text was very well derived and written. However, this above quote from you was exceptionally well written for it essentially explains where the fundamental problems within theh Middle East lie. Thus, I just wanted to highlight it here.

I am a Christian. As a Christian, I believe that all followers of Christ are essentially God's chosen. Theologically, Jews had stopped being the "chosen" even long befor they crucified God. Besides which, the Jews of today have nothing in common with the Hebrews of the ancient world - they are two very different people - ethnically and spiritually.

You had a great text, but realize that you may be throwing pearls in front of swine. Perhaps you can start a new thread with what you wrote, or post the same text within my thread called "The Jewish/Zionist role within the Armenian Genocide."

[bell-the-cat]

there will be no EU membership or there will be no EU when we have membership......

The former will be the case, I think. (Unless EU leaders want to commit suicide and really want to taste the wrath of a disenfranchised electorate). Same for all the other wanabee EU members. But there will be a compromise - some sort of partial membership, which will still have certain democratic and economic conditions which Turkey will have to meet.

by the way i must say that when i say " we know who they are" or such, those dont represent my actual ideas... they are just what i think that may happen even if i like them or not...

It's OK. I understood that.

[bell-the-cat]

The CUP wanted to create an ethnicaly pure Turkey and all Muslims were considered Turks(Laz,Armenians,Greeks,Kurds,Assyrians,if you belonged in the muslim religion nothing would happen to you) and again nothing happened to the Jews,who were not Muslims.But then again the Greeks had declared a war against the Turks from west and the Armenians were fighting in the eastern front.But still it makes you wondering...

Please - this sound just like Turk denialist propaganda. Greek armies entered Anatolia AFTER the end of WW1 and the collapse of the CUP regime. Nor were there any Armenians fighting on the eastern Front as Armenian forces until 1917.

[bell-the-cat]

go back to the roots of it and learn how it evolved. it's true palestine always had a native jewish population, a small minority until recently. there was a common culture there between jews and arabs (and armenians as well), much the same way there was a common culture in the cities of ottoman turkey between turks, greeks, armenians, jews. there was little friction between arabs and jews in those times, and you will find the same situation in other parts of the arab world, iraq, the maghreb, yemen. the same is true for persia. in the 19th century persecution of jews in europe (pogroms, etc) started to pick up. this happened to jews throughout their history in europe, in many parts (spain, italy, germany, russia, britain, etc.). i'm sure jews suffered discrimination in arab lands as well throughout history, but nothing compared to what they experienced in europe. the european jews, culturally european - they even look european, from all the intermarriage and conversion that took place over the centuries - couldn't imagine picking up and moving into the arab countries or persia. though some of them did, even ottoman turkey was too "oriental" for them .... they needed a home all to themselves. they started to immigrate into palestine in the late 19th century. the palestinian arabs accepted these refugees into their lands, as they would later do with the armenians fleeing turkish massacres. it was the typical hospitality common to middle-eastern cultures that allowed jews fleeing persecution to settle on palestinian lands. (contrast this with anglo-saxon attitudes towards immigration and refugees from other countries). the armenians who settled there were appreciative of their hosts. coming from another part of the ottoman empire they probably had more in common culturally with the palestinian arabs than the european jews did. jews though are a different story. immediately they started to act like the place was theirs. the land was theirs to take, whether or not palestinians were living on it or not. no appreciation that a people gave them a second chance on life. the arabs for them were filthy animals, with no history or culture, something to be sh*t on. they never made any effort to coexist with the arabs, they just tried to take as much as they could from them for themselves.

All mostly crap.

Jewish immigration into Palestine during the 19th and early 20th century was, at its core, political in origin. It was done at the express permission of Constantinople. There were no "refugees", no "Jews fleeing persecution". It begins in the 19th century and consisted mostly of intellectuals - middle class urban Jews from Europe. The opinions or reactions or Arabs were unimportant, being considered (and still considered) by Turks to be "niggers". The Ottoman empire wanted immigration into Palestine and Syria to balance out the suspect Arab populations there (though in many cases there was no settled population to speak of), as well as to encourage industry and agriculture. In the same way the Empire settled large numbers of Chechen immigrants into northern Syria. Money also changed hands of course - Jews paid substantial funds into the Ottoman Empire, as well as arranging loans.

[bezjian]

Bezjian, I could not figure out which part of your excellent reply to compliment, because the whole text was very well derived and written. However, this above quote from you was exceptionally well written for it essentially explains where the fundamental problems within theh Middle East lie. Thus, I just wanted to highlight it here.

I am a Christian. As a Christian, I believe that all followers of Christ are essentially God's chosen. Theologically, Jews had stopped being the "chosen" even long befor they crucified God. Besides which, the Jews of today have nothing in common with the Hebrews of the ancient world - they are two very different people - ethnically and spiritually.

You had a great text, but realize that you may be throwing pearls in front of swine. Perhaps you can start a new thread with what you wrote, or post the same text within my thread called "The Jewish/Zionist role within the Armenian Genocide."

glad to see we agree on something. this is a completely buried topic that needs to be majorly researched. we need a thorough accounting of the financial assets of armenians in the ottoman empire and should demand compensation from everyone responsible.

to be honest though it is hard for me to make statements like "jews are vile", etc. b/c i had jewish friends growing up. we had similar interests in music, our coursework at school, the typical school friendships etc. and i had no interest in history back then. a lot of them are against sharon, etc. also we shouldn't act like the efforts of charny, auron, etc. are worth nothing. i do appreciate the moral support from the ones that attended the genocide conference in yerevan in april. there was also an excellent conference in jerusalem. but as you said, it's not enough and doesn't excuse the lewises, shaws, wolfowitzes, itzkowitzes, and lobbies. you are right, their lobbies have done irreparable damage and are the biggest obstacle to the armenian cause today.

[bezjian]

All mostly crap.

is this a logically consistent statement?

Jewish immigration into Palestine during the 19th and early 20th century was, at its core, political in origin. It was done at the express permission of Constantinople. There were no "refugees", no "Jews fleeing persecution". It begins in the 19th century and consisted mostly of intellectuals - middle class urban Jews from Europe. The opinions or reactions or Arabs were unimportant, being considered (and still considered) by Turks to be "niggers". The Ottoman empire wanted immigration into Palestine and Syria to balance out the suspect Arab populations there (though in many cases there was no settled population to speak of), as well as to encourage industry and agriculture. In the same way the Empire settled large numbers of Chechen immigrants into northern Syria. Money also changed hands of course - Jews paid substantial funds into the Ottoman Empire, as well as arranging loans.

what are some sources of information on this subject?

[winoman]

i think what you need to do winoman is study this israeli-palestinian conflict a bit more closely.

- as if you know the degree to which I have studied and am familiar with this..However I am not at all interested into getting into a debate about Jews and Israel on this forum at this time...suffice to say that one story is not adequate to describe the various waves of influx of Jews into Palestein and how Jews and Arabs eventually came to be opposed...anyway...

Did you also know that during the CUP Party Congresses (secret sessions) the CUP inner circle debated liquidation of the Jews as well as the Armenians with some CUP members considering them worse "bloodsuckers" then the Armenians? Did you knwo that there were (initially) several prominent Armenian CUP members? Did you know that Djemal wished to exterminate all the Jews in palestein and Syria during WWI and did begin this process?

I suspect that there are many things that you do not know.