Liberation of Western Armenia

[Armenian]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Thanks for the info. I think we do need to remember that back then any help did not extend beyond declaring what was ours but no one really did anything to help a massacred people.

My point is, when the 'time' is right and Armenian forces go west into historic Armenia we have both the 'legal' and 'moral' rights for those lands. The entire issue here, however, is 'timing.' In the meanwhile, we need to get closer to Russia and Iran. We need to entice the EU into making more investments into the Armenian Republic. We need to concentrate on improving our armed forces. And we need to help promote internal instibility within Turkey. Turkey will fall apart one day, we simply need to be ready for that day.

Like I said before, if we want a truly independent and prosperous nation, we need to expand our territorial holdings, we need to have free access to the sea, we need to have a potent military. We need to be a regional player - not a begger. That is the only way the international community will take us and our national interests seriously.

[gmd]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

My point is, when the 'time' is right and Armenian forces go west into historic Armenia we have both the 'legal' and 'moral' rights for those lands. The entire issue here, however, is 'timing.' In the meanwhile, we need to get closer to Russia and Iran. We need to entice the EU into making more investments into the Armenian Republic. We need to concentrate on improving our armed forces. And we need to help promote internal instibility within Turkey. Turkey will fall apart one day, we simply need to be ready for that day.

Like I said before, if we want a truly independent and prosperous nation, we need to expand our territorial holdings, we need to have free access to the sea, we need to have a potent military. We need to be a regional player - not a begger. That is the only way the international community will take us and our national interests seriously.

Armenian, you should know you are preaching to the choir here. You have no disagreements from me on the importance of this.
I just think more Armenians need to wake up and see reality.

[Kamo]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

thanks gmd for your response, its good to see not everyone is incapable of debating in a mature manner.

Just to come back on some of the points you've raised

My responses. Sorry for the delay I got called into a meeting.

By saying the RA has no legal claims to lands in Turkey you are showing a willingness to follow the present status quo of the world. This is wrong and ultimately anti-Armenian and pro-Globalist. It is not in the interests of any nation or people to succumb to a global leadership. The larger the organization (even democracies) the less democracy and freedom for individual or cultural minorities.

"The whole section on private individuals making claims to Turkey.... I cannot agree with this. Either way it is full of problems. If the plan is to do a "Zionist" type land grab like in Palestine, ok if you think Turkey will allow it. If not then what?"

- I meant this on an individual level, unlike israel, which is state sponsored. I dont think Turkey can do much about Armenians living in their land

"After the Genocide what self-respecting Armenian is going to live under Turkish rule. Plus adding the part about paying tax to Turkey just rubs me in the wrong way."

- Try Turkish Armenians who have lived in Turkey for centuriess...? why should these people leave their community and their culture?

"Should these people also swear loyalty to Turkey and call themselves Turks first and then Armenians?"

- I assume you america (forgive me if im wrong), are you first american, then Armenian?

"If you truly believe that the consequences of any conflict with Turkey will end in another attempt at Genocide against our people then there is not need for me to justify my aggressive and hostile attitude towards Turkey and my desire to work only at destabilizing their nation for the gain of Armenians."
- Even if we are to assume that we have a goal of some sort to stretch Armenia into todays Turkey, then this goal should succumb to all efforts to improve the lives of Armenians today who are dying earlier than they should, and leading miserable lives.

I personally dont share the aim of stretching west, but rather to increase the living standards of Armenians in Armenia.

"Armenia", your post was very immature, and i dont have the time to decipher your effort at wit to come back to your "points".

Concerning who sold the Western Armenians, i will come back with the treaty the dashnaks signed with the Turks. Also, it was the same Dashnaks who encouraged Armenians to support the Young Turks, the same ones who murdered, raped and tortured 1.5m armenians.

Also, you sum up your logic with your comment that you dont care about any of the ARmenian inhabitants of Turkey. I would find it remarkable, if you were not yet another Diasporan dreamer, living at the other end of the globe, who doesnt want to grasp reality.

Anyway, it is not my problem. If you do wish to debate, come up with fact, instead of farcical comments like:

"Jeez... I can't stand annoying 'students' like you."
- What, your doubting im a student? Or you doubt education or knowledge, probably the latter...

"Wow! You mean you had to go to a 'university' to come to this realization?"
- No, being there and living amongst Armenians brings me to these realisations. Also being at the last Armenia Diaspora Conference which discusses the sitaution of Armenia today with real fact, figures and observations also brings me to these conclusions.

[gmd]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

- I meant this on an individual level, unlike israel, which is state sponsored. I dont think Turkey can do much about Armenians living in their land

Turkey did do something about Armenians living under their rule in the past. Turkey to this day continues to stifle minorities living under their rule. What makes you think Turks have changed so much? Turks are taught that Armenians massacred their people during WWI. What Armenian would leave the west and settle in our lands if it means living under Turkish rule?

- Try Turkish Armenians who have lived in Turkey for centuriess...? why should these people leave their community and their culture?

I do not understand how these people continue to live under Turkish rule. My maternal grandfather and his family were in Polis after the Genocide. They left and made their way back Soviet Armenia when they had the means.

- I assume you america (forgive me if im wrong), are you first american, then Armenian?

I was born in Yerevan. I grew up in America and have a life here. However, America does not need me to do anything to secure its freedom or survival. Armenia is the land of my fathers and it is where I intend to return to. I feel my stay in America cannot be permanent.

- Even if we are to assume that we have a goal of some sort to stretch Armenia into todays Turkey, then this goal should succumb to all efforts to improve the lives of Armenians today who are dying earlier than they should, and leading miserable lives.

Not necessarily. A first step in my opinion would be the development of a native defense industry. This would provide jobs and revenue for the state to reinvest in education and sciense. But all investment should be focused in developing Armenia's military industrial complex. Having a bunch of retail establishment who sell Turkish goods only weakens Armenia in the long run. Armenia needs to produce goods for its own consumption and for export. If they developed good weapons at reasonable prices there is a great world market for them. Would be no problems in selling them. Considering the terrain of Armenia and the emergence of 4th gen warfare then the investments should be in building infantry weapons with greater firepower.

I personally dont share the aim of stretching west, but rather to increase the living standards of Armenians in Armenia.

I do not agree with this. You are looking at the short term goals and not concidering the possibilites. Besides if Armenia improves economically and politically without building up its military ability then it would remain at the mercy of military posturing or attack from Turks from east or west.

[BARIŞ]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

What Armenians hope for the future is quite encouraging.But I would like to state that there is a more and more growing concern in Turkey as to Armenians' plans.Recent incident in France has also awakened an attention towards Armenians,which will surely affect Turkey's mild attitude towards such issues.
When that day comes,not only the TSK but also people living in Turkey will be ready to show what being a patriot is.

[skhara]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

I would like to state that there is a more and more growing concern in Turkey as to Armenians' plans.

That's understandable when a revenge-seeking body gains more power.
It also explain the desperate shouts, protests, and rampages by turks in western countries.

We'll get ya eventually .

[BARIŞ]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

Turkey's unity of land is under NATO's protection.So today there may be no hopes of realization of Armenian's quasi land claims.
If Armenia's holy army considers attacking when there is no NATO thing,TSK could bear the same option without worrying about NATO.
Lesser countries like Armenia do not seem to have an millitary option then, but need to be pitied by powerful ones like France.What I advice Armenian's is that, rather than having self-confidence,they should seek ways to be seen as weaker creatures to the likes of France.
Recently,things have been getting harsher..

[Vagharshapat]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

I am a Turk and in my opinion Western Armenia must be restored. Because it is the homeland of Armenians so it is their right to have it. As I believe in justice this must be done without a war. But Turkey will never accept this. So this is the duty of international courts to force Turkey to give these lands as a compensation. As I can see Eastern Anatolia is a dead place now, there's nothing, it is barren, people are migrating to west. If it belonged to Armenians it would be a very developed place right now, maybe Armenia would be in the EU. Armenians will revive there and build their country again with their skills, talent and hardworking. I think that at least the Ararat region, Kars, Van, Mush must be given to Armenia. There are 8-9 million Armenians in the world, they can all settle there. Maybe a sea port can be given in Artvin too. But without international intervention these cant be done. The big countries always neglect the Armenians and they always beyrayed them. Because they dont want to lose their big friend Turkey. But this must chang now, a public support must be gained all over the world. These are my opinions Armenian friends...

[BARIŞ]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

I am a Turk and in my opinion Western Armenia must be restored. Because it is the homeland of Armenians so it is their right to have it. As I believe in justice this must be done without a war. But Turkey will never accept this. So this is the duty of international courts to force Turkey to give these lands as a compensation. As I can see Eastern Anatolia is a dead place now, there's nothing, it is barren, people are migrating to west. If it belonged to Armenians it would be a very developed place right now, maybe Armenia would be in the EU. Armenians will revive there and build their country again with their skills, talent and hardworking. I think that at least the Ararat region, Kars, Van, Mush must be given to Armenia. There are 8-9 million Armenians in the world, they can all settle there. Maybe a sea port can be given in Artvin too. But without international intervention these cant be done. The big countries always neglect the Armenians and they always beyrayed them. Because they dont want to lose their big friend Turkey. But this must chang now, a public support must be gained all over the world. These are my opinions Armenian friends...

Tell an Armenian that you are a Turk,then ask what he thinks of you without stating your holy(!) approach above.
And mention an Armenian your holy(!) intentions,then say that you are a Turk and ask what he thinks of you
There surely be a sharp difference between in reactions.

[Vagharshapat]

Re: Liberation of Western Armenia

I myself think the same as the Armenians, "most of the Turks are stupid", like Aziz Nesin had said once. I myself find the Turkish community very hypocritical. They are unaware of the phrase "Do onto others as you would wish them do onto you". They have no sense of empathy. They always claim posession over everything and always consider themselves absolute right. They have a national arrogance. So they can not think properly and lose their sense of Truth. So losing the sense of Truth causes a national madness and hysteria. In my opinion the Turkish nation is suffering a mental sickness right now. I call it national paranoia and alienation. They feel so alone in the world and think that everybody in the world is the enemy of Turks. Everybody is a traitor in the world and only they are very right. There is a saying in Turkish; "There are no friends of Turks except for Turks". This is a very crippled way of thinking. You must think about this; The Greeks hate Turks, The Armenians hate Turks, The Bulgarians hate Turks, the Romanians hate Turks, the Kurds hate Turks, the Serbians hate Turks, the Iranians hate Turks, the Arabians hate Turks. A proper person must be able to ask himself; "Is there something wrong with me?" Maybe I am wrong? But Turks never ask these kind of questions. They dont settle accounts with themselves. They dont confront with their mistakes. They are always right. Actually I am very unpleasant to live in a sick minded community like this as this community is losing touch with the world community and humanity day by day. Also there is no freedom of speech in Turkey because if you express your opinions about the Turkish community they make you pay for this for the reason of "insulting the Turkishness". So in my opinion the country MUST question itself from the beginning to the end. There must be a revolution. But Turkish people never rise up for something. They must question how the Kurds were persecuted since 1923. How many thousands of people killed by the Republic in 1921-1925-1928-1937 Kurdish rebellions. What happened in Diyarbakır prisons? They couldnt even question the junta leader Kenan Evren. And we are still living with that 1982 constitution. There can never be democracy in Turkey because democracy is a way of thinking, a way of life, it is respect for freedom of thinking, freedom of speech. Turkish people have never adopted this way of thinking because they are familiar with dictating one's ideas by force, opressing people with intolerance. This is the way we do it in Turkey...