The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

[Armanen]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Looking at Armenian-Turkish Relations - Without the Paranoia, Obsessions or the Hysteria

Revised Version

The so-called "protocols" have been discussed at length. Many approaches, be it ideological, political, ethical or spiritual, have been taken into full account. Thus far, the picture painted by many in the diaspora looks utterly bleak bordering on apocalyptic. One thing, however, that I have yet to see seriously scrutinized is the crucially important factor of geopolitics, or the thing we call realpolitik. The links provided below are regarding some interesting geopolitical and economic developments occurring, somewhat under the radar, within the Caucasus. The information that I am providing you here is crucial for better understanding what is occurring in the Caucasus today. Thus, they definitely deserve a serious look. I urge you all to make some time and read them. But before that, I have a few comments to make...

Basing my opinion on what I have been observing in regional developments for the past several years, it is quite obvious that there are serious plans for the greater Caucasus region, plans in which Armenia may take center stage. The mastermind of this new agenda is Vladimir Putin's Moscow. And one of the most obvious manifestations of this agenda has been the warming of relations between Turkey and Armenia; of course under the watchful eyes of the Kremlin.

Don't believe shallow talk concerning the rapprochement between Turkey and Armenia being a Western agenda. It is far from it. The West is currently powerless in the Caucasus. Thus, in a sense, it is forced to go along with the political/economic process set in motion by Moscow. Let's remember that the warming of relations between Ankara and Yerevan was started in Moscow just before the Russian-Georgian war. This process then reached a climax when Turkey's Gul visited Armenia in the immediate aftermath of Russia's war against Georgia - a war that saw the decisive defeat of the American-European-Turkish-Israeli backed regime in Tbilisi. According to international political analysts, Georgia's defeat more-or-less eliminated Western and Turkish (and by extension, Israeli) interests from within the Caucasus region.

For those who are unfamiliar with the geopolitics of the region, a simple explanation - For the past twenty years or so the West, in-tandem with Turkey and Israel, has been attempting to wrestle the strategic region of the Caucasus away from Russian control. The bloody Islamic insurgency in Chechnya and the arming of Georgia had been a part of the greater anti-Russian agenda of the West. However, we Armenians need to be mindful of the fact that without a Russian presence in the Caucasus the entire region in question will no doubt turn into a Turkic/Islamic cesspool and a playground for various intelligence services. Needless to say, Armenia cannot live as a state in the Caucasus without an effective Russian presence there.

With the Caucasus now effectively in their hands, and at their mercy, Moscow seems to be embarked on long term plan to essentially remake the Caucasus in its image. And, for better or for worst, Moscow has decided that it will use its regional strategic partner, Armenia, as its staging-ground for deeper relations with regional nations. Simply put, Armenia is expected to project Russian power in the south Caucasus and Asia Minor. And due to Europe's severe dependency on Central Asian gas and oil (that which Moscow now fully controls) and the economic crisis that currently engulfs them, the West is more-or-less going along with Moscow's plans. In other words, they can't stop it so they are putting a happy face on it and hoping to reap some benefits from it.

Nonetheless, before we figuratively speaking hang our nation's leadership for some vague wordage used on some meaningless piece of paper, let's all realize that a tiny, impoverished nation surrounded by enemies in the Caucasus has very limited leverage on an international negotiation table. We must realize that Armenia is not, nor can it be under its current geopolitical circumstances, a truly an independent state. What we need to be grateful about, however, is the simple fact that for once in our recent history we as a nation serve the strategic interests of a regional superpower. And what we can take pride in is the simple fact that as a result of its strategic relationship with Moscow Armenia's (as well as Artsakh's) borders have never been stronger.

So, don't worry, even if our leadership were all a bunch of traitors and they all wanted to sell Armenia to the Turks, Russians would not allow it, nor would Iranians for that matter. Let's not forget what happened to Vazgen Sargsyan and Garen Demirjyan when they got too close to the West back in 1999... Therefore, don't kid yourselves folks, if the Kremlin thought that the southern Caucasus would be penetrated by Turks as a result of "open borders" with Armenia there would be no Turkish-Armenian relations to speak of today.

I personally do not believe that our leadership in Yerevan is stupid, in that they do not understand politics, nor do I believe that they are treasonous, in that they have been bought by Turks. Our leadership in Yerevan is forced to go along with the greater agenda that has been placed on the table as they try to extract some benefit from it. Let us also take into serious consideration the cold realization that Armenia is stagnating politically and economically due to its isolation and poverty. If nothing is done about this predicament, in a generation or two the landlocked and resource-less country may forever sink into a Third World oblivion. Our leadership needs to do anything and everything, within proper boundaries of course, to ensure Armenia's prosperity and longevity.

With some concerns and reservations I remain hopeful that something good will come out of the current political process. I am looking at what's occurring in Armenian-Turkish relations objectively and rationally, without the paranoia, hysteria or obsessions expressed by many in our diaspora. And for Armenia's sake, I hope you prophets of doom are wrong and I am right. In final analysis, we in the diaspora, as long as we choose to remain in the diaspora, have no right to 'demand' anything from officials in Armenia because it is the natives of Armenia that will have to live with the consequences of politics - not us. Armenia cannot be the diaspora's test tube nor can it be held hostage to its ideological whims.

I ask you again to read the following material to better understand what is happening in the Caucasus today.

Armenian

The Caucasus: Small War, Big Damage: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/t...6.php?CID=1176

That Was No Small War in Georgia — It Was the Beginning of the End of the American Empire: http://donvandergriff.wordpress.com/...erican-empire/

Caucasus Is Real Citadel of Russian Power: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinio...le/383525.html

A Northern Neighbor Growls, and Azerbaijan Reassesses Its Options: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/23/wo...i.html?_r=1&em

RUSSIA: MOSCOW MULLS CONSTRUCTION OF ARMENIA-IRAN RAILWAY LINK:

http://www.eurasianet.org/department...v093009b.shtml

ARMENIA: RAILWAY PREPARES TO GO TO TURKEY: http://www.eurasianet.org/department...v092909c.shtml

Seven-thousand kilometer project is awaiting parliamentary approval: http://www.sabahenglish.com/news/8386.html

Turkish press: EU to involve Armenia in Nabucco project at Georgia’s expense: http://news.am/en/news/3805.html

Asian Bank To Fund Road Projects In Armenia, Georgia: http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/1839958.html

Alexey Miller: Iran, Turkey to do gas swaps through Armenia: http://news.am/en/news/3883.html

Gasprom considers possible construction of oil refinery in Armenia: http://www.arka.am/eng/energy/2009/06/23/15426.html

Russia signs deal to build Turkey's first nuclear power plant: http://en.rian.ru/business/20090806/155747143.html

Azerbaijan: The Stark New Energy Landscape: http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/en/co...rgy-landscape/

Shifting Geopolitics- The Rise of Russia and Turkey: http://www.marketoracle.co.uk/Article9509.html

YEVSEYEV: TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TOWARDS RUSSIAN INTERESTS: http://www.historyoftruth.com/news/y...ests-3978.html

Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Is Possible – and Necessary: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=10083

Turkey in tight spot between Russia and NATO: http://www.reuters.com/article/reute...BrandChannel=0

Turkey Plays to Russia in Caucasus: http://www.kommersant.com/p1022936/r...rkey_Caucasus/

[Eddo211]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

I agree, we definitely need to consider Russia's longterm geopolitical roles and their reality as a superpower and arbiter of the Caucasus. The consensus of our forums often enough seems to be on the verge of rejecting this as a reality when they consider how Armenia should approach the protocols.

When we got our independance from the Soviet Union, if there was no war with Azerbaijan, we would've had borders open with the Turks anyway. And Turkey doesn't need open borders to destroy Armenia, they need Russia's absence. We should be glad about the news that Armenia will not include settling the NK question as part of the preconditions, this is a real, tangible victory for us and is pivotal in surviving while being flanked by Turkey and Azerbaijan in the future.

Thanks to Armanen and Armenian.

These proto calls will effectively silence and stop the Armenian Diasporas genocide recognition expansion (biggest threat to Turkey) forever, thus making us more irrelevant than we already are when it comes to Armenia.
Also I don’t believe that Turkish Generals will go along without getting something out of NK for the Azeris.

[jgk3]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Please tell Armenian this place needs his help and guidance.

But it doesn't need the dramatic conflict he represents with the mods and any member with whom he fundamentally disagrees with. Perhaps this arrangement he has with Armanen is his way of giving this (peace) to us.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Armanen axpers cavt tanim it's good to see your posts again. Please tell Armenian this place needs his help and guidance.

[jgk3]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

I agree, we definitely need to consider Russia's longterm geopolitical roles and their reality as a superpower and arbiter of the Caucasus. The consensus of our forums often enough seems to be on the verge of rejecting this as a reality when they consider how Armenia should approach the protocols.

When we got our independance from the Soviet Union, if there was no war with Azerbaijan, we would've had borders open with the Turks anyway. And Turkey doesn't need open borders to destroy Armenia, they need Russia's absence. We should be glad about the news that Armenia will not include settling the NK question as part of the preconditions, this is a real, tangible victory for us and is pivotal in surviving while being flanked by Turkey and Azerbaijan in the future.

Thanks to Armanen and Armenian.

[ZORAVAR]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

To Armanen,

Thanks for posting the article written by Armenian.

To Armenian,

Thank you very much for taking the time in writing the above article. It definitly does shed some light on what is happening and illustrates things from a perspective that is a bit broader than what our brothers and sisters are fed through the usual daily news channels.

These are confusing times and our compatriots are lost in what is happening. Their emotional outbursts are understandable...

Your latest analysis provides (as always) a clear bearing and sense of guidance to the everyday Armenian who is worried about the well being of his country and compatriotes.

Your return and presence on this forum is more needed than ever during these confusing times that our nation is going through.

I look forward to it.

ZORAVAR

[Armanen]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Looking at Armenian-Turkish Relations - Without the Paranoia, Obsessions or the Hysteria

The so-called "protocols" have been discussed at length. Many approaches, be it ideological, political, ethical or spiritual, have been taken into full account. Thus far, the picture painted by many in the diaspora looks utterly bleak bordering on apocalyptic. One thing, however, that I have yet to see seriously scrutinized is the crucially important factor of geopolitics, or the thing we call realpolitik. The links provided below are regarding some interesting geopolitical and economic developments occurring, somewhat under the radar, within the Caucasus. The information that I am providing you here is crucial for better understanding what is occurring in the Caucasus today. Thus, they definitely deserve a serious look. I urge you all to make some time and read them. But before that, I have a few comments to make...

Basing my opinion on what I have been observing in regional developments for the past several years, it is quite obvious that there are serious plans for the greater Caucasus region, plans in which Armenia may take center stage. The mastermind of this new agenda is Vladimir Putin's Moscow. And one of the most obvious manifestations of this agenda has been the warming of relations between Turkey and Armenia; of course under the watchful eyes of the Kremlin.

Don't believe shallow talk concerning the rapprochement between Turkey and Armenia being a Western agenda. It is far from it. The West is currently powerless in the Caucasus. Thus, in a sense, it is forced to go along with the political/economic process set in motion by Moscow. Let's remember that the warming of relations between Ankara and Yerevan was started in Moscow just before the Russian-Georgian war. This process then reached a climax when Turkey's Gul visited Armenia in the immediate aftermath of Russia's war against Georgia - a war that saw the decisive defeat of the American-European-Western-Turkish-Israeli backed regime in Tbilisi. According to international political analysts, Georgia's defeat more-or-less eliminated Western and Turkish (and by extension, Israeli) interests from within the Caucasus region.

For those who are unfamiliar with the geopolitics of the region, a simple explanation - For the past twenty years or so the West, in-tandem with Turkey and Israel, has been attempting to wrestle the strategic region of the Caucasus away from Russian control. The bloody Islamic insurgency in Chechnya and the arming of Georgia had been a part of the greater anti-Russian agenda of the West. However, we Armenians need to be mindful of the fact that without a Russian presence in the Caucasus the entire region in question will no doubt turn into a Turkic/Islamic cesspool and a playground for the CIA, MI6 and the Mossad. Needless to say, Armenia cannot live as a state in the Caucasus without an effective Russian presence there.

With the Caucasus now effectively in their hands, and at their mercy, Moscow seems to be embarked on long term plan to essentially remake the Caucasus in its image. And, for better or for worst, Moscow has decided that it will use its regional strategic partner, Armenia, as its staging-ground for deeper relations with regional nations. Simply put, Armenia is expected to project Russian power in the south Caucasus and Asia Minor. And due to Europe's severe dependency on Central Asian gas and oil (that which Moscow now fully controls) and the economic crisis that currently engulfs them, the West is more-or-less going along with Moscow's plans. In other words, they can't stop it so they are putting a happy face on it and hoping to reap some benefits from it.

Nonetheless, before we figuratively speaking hang our nation's leadership for some vague wordage used on some meaningless piece of paper, let's all realize that a tiny, impoverished nation surrounded by enemies in the Caucasus has very limited leverage on an international negotiation table. We must realize that Armenia is not, nor can it be under its current geopolitical circumstances, a truly an independent state. What we need to be grateful about, however, is the simple fact that we as a nation serve the strategic interests of a regional superpower like Russia. And what we can take pride in is the simple fact that as a result of this strategic relationship with Moscow Armenia's (as well as Artsakh's) borders have never been stronger.

So, don't worry, even if our leadership were all a bunch of traitors and they all wanted to sell Armenia to the Turks, Russians would allowed it, nor would Iranians for that matter. Let's not forget what happened to Vazgen Sargsyan and Garen Demirjyan when they got too close to the West back in 1999... Therefore, don't kid yourselves, if the Kremlin thought that the Caucasus, or Armenia, would be penetrated by Turks as a result of "open borders" with Armenia there would be no Turkish-Armenian relations to speak of today.

I personally do not believe that our leadership in Yerevan is stupid, in that they do not understand politics, nor do I believe that they treasonous, in that they have been bought by Turks. Our leadership in Yerevan is forced to go along with the greater agenda that has been placed on the table as they try to extract some benefit from it. Let us also take into serious consideration the realization that Armenia is stagnating politically and economically due to its isolation and poverty. If nothing is done about this predicament, in a generation or two the landlocked and resource-less country may forever sink into a Third World oblivion. Our leadership needs to do anything and everything, within proper boundaries of course, to ensure Armenia's prosperity and longevity.

With some concerns and reservations I remain hopeful that something good will come out of the current political process. I am looking at what's occurring in Armenian-Turkish relations objectively and rationally, without the paranoia, hysteria or obsessions expressed by many in our diaspora. And for Armenia's sake, I hope you prophets of doom are wrong and I am right. In final analysis, we in the diaspora, as long as we choose to remain in the diaspora, have no right to 'demand' anything from officials in Armenia because it is the natives of Armenia that will have to live with the consequences of politics - not us. Armenia cannot be the diaspora's test tube nor can it be held hostage to its ideological whims.

I ask you again to read the following material to better understand what is happening in the Caucasus today.

Armenian

The Caucasus: Small War, Big Damage: http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/t...6.php?CID=1176

That Was No Small War in Georgia — It Was the Beginning of the End of the American Empire: http://donvandergriff.wordpress.com/...erican-empire/

Caucasus Is Real Citadel of Russian Power: http://www.themoscowtimes.com/opinio...le/383525.html

A Northern Neighbor Growls, and Azerbaijan Reassesses Its Options: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/23/wo...i.html?_r=1&em

RUSSIA: MOSCOW MULLS CONSTRUCTION OF ARMENIA-IRAN RAILWAY LINK:

http://www.eurasianet.org/departments/news/eav093009b.shtml

ARMENIA: RAILWAY PREPARES TO GO TO TURKEY: http://www.eurasianet.org/department...v092909c.shtml

Seven-thousand kilometer project is awaiting parliamentary approval: http://www.sabahenglish.com/news/8386.html

Turkish press: EU to involve Armenia in Nabucco project at Georgia’s expense: http://news.am/en/news/3805.html

Asian Bank To Fund Road Projects In Armenia, Georgia: http://www.azatutyun.am/content/article/1839958.html

Alexey Miller: Iran, Turkey to do gas swaps through Armenia: http://news.am/en/news/3883.html

Gasprom considers possible construction of oil refinery in Armenia: http://www.arka.am/eng/energy/2009/06/23/15426.html

Russia signs deal to build Turkey's first nuclear power plant: http://en.rian.ru/business/20090806/155747143.html

Azerbaijan: The Stark New Energy Landscape: http://www.turkishforum.com.tr/en/co...rgy-landscape/

YEVSEYEV: TURKISH-ARMENIAN DIALOGUE TOWARDS RUSSIAN INTERESTS:

http://www.historyoftruth.com/news/yevseyev-turkish-armenian-dialogue-towards-russian-interests-3978.html

Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Is Possible – and Necessary: http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.p...t=va&aid=10083

Turkey in tight spot between Russia and NATO: http://www.reuters.com/article/reute...BrandChannel=0

Turkey Plays to Russia in Caucasus: http://www.kommersant.com/p1022936/r...rkey_Caucasus/

[UrMistake]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

What have the EU to say about Israel attacking Lebanon or Palestine.

[KanadaHye]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Georgian attack began war with Russia: EU report

Georgia's opening attack on the breakaway South Ossetia region was unjustified and "marked the beginning" of last year's war with Russia, according to an EU-commissioned report.

The anticipated report, released Wednesday, said Georgian, Russian and South Ossetian forces all violated international humanitarian law, and suggested ethnic cleansing was practiced against Georgians in South Ossetia during the five-day war.

The report said the war began on Aug. 7, 2008, with Georgia's assault on the South Ossetian capital of Tshkinvali, following "long periods of increasing tensions, provocations and incidents" and said the risk of new confrontation "remains serious."

Goergia had said it launched its offensive to repel Russian forces that had invaded separatist regions in South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Russia had said it sent troops only after Georgia had attacked.


But the report, written by Swiss diplomat Heidi Tagliavini said Georgia's attack was unjustified under international law.

Russia's military repelled Georgian forces in the brief war, taking battles deep into Georgian territory. Russia's occupation of Georgian territory and its subsequent recognition of the independence of Abkhazia and South Ossetia has drawn strong condemnation from the West.



Russia went too far in retalitation: report
The EU report said Russia went too far in its response to Georgia's attack.

"All this cannot be regarded as even remotely commensurate with the threat to Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia," the report said.

Russia's retaliation went "far beyond the reasonable limits of defence," it said, criticizing the devastating Russian assault on its smaller neighbour.

Goergia's EU ambassador, Salome Samadashvili, said the question of who fired first was irrelevant in the context of two decades of friction.

Russia's EU envoy, Vladimir Chizhov, said the report was not pro-Russian but provided "an unequivocal answer to the main question of who started the war."

The report also looked at claims of ethnic cleansing of Georgians in South Ossetia, but did not pinpoint who it believed was responsible.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/0...eu-report.html

[KanadaHye]

Re: The Rise of the Russian Empire: Russo-Armenian Relations

Why would europe have a hard time staying united wo turckey? Turckey and its society do not fit in well with european society. On the contrary should the turcks decide not to persue eu membership, europe will get rid of a point of contemtion and will be more united not less.

There are probably lots of investors eyeing prime realestate in Turkey, aside from all of the political problems, the country has real potential for growth.
But, aside from the soccer fanatics, Europeans probably don't have much else in common. There are many liberal and european minded Turks but I think its the history and the governing bodies that wouldn't meet eye to eye. Russia teaming up with Turkey might mean Turkey paying less attention to Israel. Russia's stance toward Georgia in my eye was when the power shift started. Turkey pisses Israel off then we might get our Genocide recognition after all.