Armenian-Turkish Relations

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I don't know about you but i have lost track of how much money we have spent lobbying for genocide recognition etc and we have absolutely nothing to show for it. People put your money where it will matter most-ARMENIA.

I think we can both agree that all that time and money would have been better spent on education on Armenian children in the diaspora so that we would have had those key influential people in high places. We don't need to build an army, just gain control of an existing one. Remember that power transfer doesn't happen over night. China has been chipping away at the American Empire cent by cent, dollar by dollar. Americans are broke and China is now holding their cash. Of course this means nothing without the backing of a military which China will also develop soon enough. The slaves of today can be the slave owners of tomorrow, it just takes planning and patience.

We need to invest and support in our artists, our writers, philosophers and thinkers.... not just our businessmen, doctors and lawyers. We hold personal status too high in the Armenian community and that's why we keep spinning our wheels and accomplishing nothing. We can't invest IN Armenia until we get rid of corruption.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I think we can both agree that all that time and money would have been better spent on education on Armenian children in the diaspora so that we would have had those key influential people in high places. We don't need to build an army, just gain control of an existing one. Remember that power transfer doesn't happen over night. China has been chipping away at the American Empire cent by cent, dollar by dollar. Americans are broke and China is now holding their cash. Of course this means nothing without the backing of a military which China will also develop soon enough. The slaves of today can be the slave owners of tomorrow, it just takes planning and patience.

We need to invest and support in our artists, our writers, philosophers and thinkers.... not just our businessmen, doctors and lawyers. We hold personal status too high in the Armenian community and that's why we keep spinning our wheels and accomplishing nothing. We can't invest IN Armenia until we get rid of corruption.

I think Karothegreat has the right attitude. Kanada i think you heart is in the right place but your strategy is still flawed. No one will ever get rid of corruption in Armenia or anywhere else for that matter. People know very well that the usa and canada are not free of corruption yet they still invest even though a portion of the proceeds from such ventures will inevitebly go to unjust wars etc.. Also the people in the diaspora are not super humans, lets say you do become a doctor and are patriotic and willing to help but will your son or daughter do the same? We live in a melting pot and we cannot totally controll our armenianness in the diaspora let alone that of our childeren, another important issue is that the very consept of being armenian is heavily effected by the environment (country) people live in. The only place you can be assured that armenians will be and stay armenian is in Armenia where you can live in YOUR country. The concept of being armenian changes and it changes in a different way in the diaspora vs in Armenia. This change further devides our people but is inevitable so long as we live apart from one another. The only solution is to create a Armenian state strong and prosperous enough so that we all can live and prosper in it.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I think Karothegreat has the right attitude. Kanada i think you heart is in the right place but your strategy is still flawed. No one will ever get rid of corruption in Armenia or anywhere else for that matter. People know very well that the usa and canada are not free of corruption yet they still invest even though a portion of the proceeds from such ventures will inevitebly go to unjust wars etc.. Also the people in the diaspora are not super humans, lets say you do become a doctor and are patriotic and willing to help but will your son or daughter do the same? We live in a melting pot and we cannot totally controll our armenianness in the diaspora let alone that of our childeren, another important issue is that the very consept of being armenian is heavily effected by the environment (country) people live in. The only place you can be assured that armenians will be and stay armenian is in Armenia where you can live in YOUR country. The concept of being armenian changes and it changes in a different way in the diaspora vs in Armenia. This change further devides our people but is inevitable so long as we live apart from one another. The only solution is to create a Armenian state strong and prosperous enough so that we all can live and prosper in it.

There are pockets of Armenians everywhere that have kept their "Armenianess" more than those that were living under soviet rule. I don't buy that argument. Especially now since the world is so small with the internet, satellite, cell phones, etc. Armenian media and education is at your fingertips. The 3 million Armenians living inside their state are far less influential than the 6-7 million living outside of Armenia. Just take a look at how much of the American military is OUTSIDE of America. They don't forget who they are because they are constantly reminded of it.

Of course the goal is to create an Armenian state strong and prosperous enough so that we all can live and prosper in it but it's not going to happen without the help of the diaspora. We have to act as agents working for the Armenian state.

[Army]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I think Karothegreat has the right attitude. Kanada i think you heart is in the right place but your strategy is still flawed. No one will ever get rid of corruption in Armenia or anywhere else for that matter. People know very well that the usa and canada are not free of corruption yet they still invest even though a portion of the proceeds from such ventures will inevitebly go to unjust wars etc.. Also the people in the diaspora are not super humans, lets say you do become a doctor and are patriotic and willing to help but will your son or daughter do the same? We live in a melting pot and we cannot totally controll our armenianness in the diaspora let alone that of our childeren, another important issue is that the very consept of being armenian is heavily effected by the environment (country) people live in. The only place you can be assured that armenians will be and stay armenian is in Armenia where you can live in YOUR country. The concept of being armenian changes and it changes in a different way in the diaspora vs in Armenia. This change further devides our people but is inevitable so long as we live apart from one another. The only solution is to create a Armenian state strong and prosperous enough so that we all can live and prosper in it.

I do not fully agree with that.

People who live out of their nation, abroad; usually have so strong nationalist feelings. Thats because that they "feel" different and their romantic ties with their motherland. I am a member of a Stalin-era exiled family; so I can also see that ultra-nationalist attitude within my old (elder) family members.

And as for the Armenians, the events of early 1900s keep them stronger; since they grow up hearing that their parents had lands and a nice life within Anatolia. I am pretty sure 90% of the Diaspora, especially the ones in France & USA would not return to Eastern Turkey if they could take their lands back. They'd keep living in Europe & America. But still, this romantic and emotional feeling keeps them "Armenian".

So, I am sure Diaspora Armenians are more nationalist than the Armenia Armenians.

However;

Haykakan is right, because as long as they keep living in foreign countries; they would become "less" Armenian with the marriages with other nation member. For example, they'd become %50 Armenian and %50 French, and than %25 Armenian %75 something else, and at the end it'd be "One of my grand grandfathers was Armenian, I suppose..."

So.. Even if they could keep their "Armenian blood", they'd be more local to those Western countries; and at the end; Armenia would be a "fairy tale" to them. A country that their nation-kind lives; but they'd know 'no one' from Armenia; a country that they know that exists but never seen.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I am pretty sure 90% of the Diaspora, especially the ones in France & USA would not return to Eastern Turkey if they could take their lands back. They'd keep living in Europe & America. But still, this romantic and emotional feeling keeps them "Armenian"

Are you telling me that if the Armenian government offered those in the diaspora dirt cheap land, and an opportunity to live more freely in a country to be considered their own, they'd still be dumb enough to slave away in the diaspora trying pay mortgages and rents on over taxed and over priced property?

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

There are pockets of Armenians everywhere that have kept their "Armenianess" more than those that were living under soviet rule. I don't buy that argument. Especially now since the world is so small with the internet, satellite, cell phones, etc. Armenian media and education is at your fingertips. The 3 million Armenians living inside their state are far less influential than the 6-7 million living outside of Armenia. Just take a look at how much of the American military is OUTSIDE of America. They don't forget who they are because they are constantly reminded of it.

Of course the goal is to create an Armenian state strong and prosperous enough so that we all can live and prosper in it but it's not going to happen without the help of the diaspora. We have to act as agents working for the Armenian state.

You still fail to add to your assessment the hoards of armenians who have already assimilated. Sure some keep their identity but many do not plus that identity that you keep becomes sometimes engraved into stone and lacks the fluidity of a normal self sence or armenianess. The internet helps some but it is no substitue for living in your own country. The 6-7 million armenians living outside of armenia could have been 14 to 18 million living in armenia if it was not for assimilation (and that is a very conservative estimate). Add to this the existing armenian population and you got a country of 20 million which could actually populate the lands we already hold and could make a better case for the return of our western territories, plus we would have the bigger army, economy.... It does not take a genious to see how assimilation in the diaspora hurts us big time and the only solution is a return to homeland of the people who have not assimilated yet. This is why a stronger and better Armenia is important to the survival of our people and nation. Armenians in the diaspora are not super humans, they do change according to where they live and they cannot and should not be expected to be all and do all because it is impossible.
Karo given the recent developments i think something may indeed be looming in Javack. I think the dumb georgians have overplayed their hand and now russia is going to make them pay even more. It would be great to get Javack but war is never great and i hope it will be a short and relatively bloodless one.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Are you telling me that if the Armenian government offered those in the diaspora dirt cheap land, and an opportunity to live more freely in a country to be considered their own, they'd still be dumb enough to slave away in the diaspora trying pay mortgages and rents on over taxed and over priced property?

Um i guess you didn't get the memo. They have been trying to settle the regions inside and around kharabagh for 15 years offering dirt cheap land etc..yet guess what hardly anyone from the diaspora moved there.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Um i guess you didn't get the memo. They have been trying to settle the regions inside and around kharabagh for 15 years offering dirt cheap land etc..yet guess what hardly anyone from the diaspora moved there.

It's a stone throw away from the Azeris and it's kind of xxxxty land All the prime realestate in Armenia seems to be owned by wealthy foreigners. We want to see the other side of Ararat open for development. I agree with you though, some people have become lazy city slickers in the diaspora and probably couldn't survive in a slightly rural area.

[Army]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

It's a stone throw away from the Azeris and it's kind of xxxxty land All the prime realestate in Armenia seems to be owned by wealthy foreigners. We want to see the other side of Ararat open for development. I agree with you though, some people have become lazy city slickers in the diaspora and probably couldn't survive in a slightly rural area.

I wonder if you'd or others from Diaspora would move to the "other side of Ararat" under Turkish rule; if enough guarantees given and with a normalization between Turkey and Armenia. But still, having them as land of Turkey; would you like to move there? Just a question, no offense really

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I wonder if you'd or others from Diaspora would move to the "other side of Ararat" under Turkish rule; if enough guarantees given and with a normalization between Turkey and Armenia. But still, having them as land of Turkey; would you like to move there? Just a question, no offense really

I think you can answer that question yourself by simply putting yourself in our shoes. While we lived under turckish rule we were discriminated against, unfairly taxed, sporatically slaughtered and our word meant nothing in court against a muslim, then we were promised reforms and helped the reformers get elected and in turn they turned around and tried to erradicate us completely, took our lands and belongins. Ite was not too long ago that turckey showed how far it has come in regards to minority relations by slaughtering thousends of kurds, assasinating a journalist who was trying to be fair to both sides, brutally killing christians from different countries, exhiling its own cicizens for speaking the truth.... Ok so now imagine that you are a armenian being invited to leave your "normal" life in some western country to go to this land i just described. What would you do?