Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

That's not a true statement actually. Abkhazians just like all the north caucasians fought very bloody bitter wars with the Russian empire. By the way, I think the turkish involvement in Abkhazia in the last couple of decades have really been Abkhazians who fled to the Ottoman empire during those wars. It is just an interesting irony how things worked out. Abkhazians bitterly fought Russian imperialism and yet the Georgians tried to erase their nationhood and they reached to Russia for salvation. The pro-Russianness of Abkhazians is just over a decade old.

Not entirely true, enker Skhara. Allow me to rephrase it.

A more accurate statement should have been - the Abkhazian population, as well as other peoples of the Caucasus, were split in their attitude towards the Russian empire. The nature of the split was more-or-less based on religion, Christianity vs Islam. Many of the region's Christians supported being incorporated into the Russian empire yet others (generally the Muslims) looked towards the Ottoman empire. However, not even all the Muslims in Abkhazia rebelled against Russian rule, only the staunchly pro-Ottoman or fundamentalist Muslim portion were anti-Russian. Thus, Russia never fought the Abkhazian 'nation.' Russia engaged in low intensity conflicts against a particular anti-Russian segment of the Abkhazian nation with the help of the other pro-Russian segment. This internal split within Caucasus nations is evident in the fact that many Abkhazians (perhaps half?) and a majority of Ossetians are Orthodox Christians. A significant portion, if not most, of the Abkhazian and Ossetian populations have been pro-Russian throughout modern history. After the full incorporation of these two regions into the Russian empire by the middle of the 19th century, there were no major problems between them and Moscow, unlike other locations that continue to be problematic to this day. So, from a 'Caucasian' perspective, yes, Russians and Abkhazians have had good relations and Abkhazians have been for the most part (like you said, especially during the past 10-15 years) very pro-Russian. Not wanting to get into historic details, I simply stated - for effect - that Abkhazians and Ossetians have been very pro-Russian.

OK, dude?

So, stop being a pain...

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

You did not read my post carefully, otherwise you wouldn't say this. I explain once more. Please pay attention:

The Wilson arbitration is final, timeless, irrevocable and incumbent on signatories to enforce it. We cannot change it, Turks cannot change it, no one can, according to INTERNATIONAL LAW.

Sentimental issues are one thing but with an Armenia within the present borders we cannot enlarge our territory according to our liking. If you want Cilicia, you'll have to get the Wilsonian Armenia first, which will bring Turkey one step closer to disintegration, bury pan-Turkism forever and will give Armenia the possibility to grow 1) economically, 2) politically and 3) militarily, the prerequisites to conquering back more lands.


Because we do not have the necessary levers for it. Apart from historic and moral rights which are useless in the real world, these levers come in four categories and there's nothing outside these that will allow us to do it. Please pay attention:

1) Economical

2) Political

3) Military

4) Legal

As long as Armenia exists within the present borders, WE WILL NEVER HAVE THE POSSIBILITY TO DEVELOP 1), 2) and 3). Do you get this? Fortunately we have the 4) legal lever: the Wilson arbitration. If you say fuck off to this, you say bye, bye to Armenia.

If you dismiss the Wilson arbitration, you'll be left with NOTHING to take a single nanometer Armenian territory back from the genocidal Turk, because you will lose the only lever (i.e. the legal one) you got. Turkey will never recognize the AG, so don't place your bets on reparations after recognition. We do not need any recognition to get Wilsonian Armenia back. This is purely a legal matter and has nothing to do with the Armenian Genocide. Capice?

My friend you are still not getting it International law is the biggest joke ever. It has no power at all, who is going to force Turkey to give those lands. No one is ever going to do that. Did the Us care abut law when they invaded Iraq. Does Turkey care? No they don't.

So Hellektor we go to court and when the case who is going to give us the lands. We still have to take it our self and when we are strong enough why stop there and not go to where we want to stop and where it is the best to stop for Armenia.

[Lucin]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

While I disagree with your new stance on the matter following recent developments, I would like to repost this piece of article by you, which is a well-thought, insightful, objective and an astute observation of Turkish-Armenian relations, in my opinion. Regardless of the recent political turmoil, I still firmly believe that our little Armenia may only benefit from open borders in the short run but we will have to pay a much much higher price in the long run for the reasons outlined well in this article.

This very complex topic requires serious debate and analysis. Sadly, overwhelming majority of concerned Armenians have not seriously thought out this matter. Usually the approach is primal/instinctive - sure, open the borders and let Armenia prosper... yeah, open the borders and allow money to pour into Armenia...

Says who?!?!?! When has it been that simple? What are these people basing their convictions on? Has anyone looked at the sociopolitical situation in Georgia? Has anyone looked at the sociopolitical situation in Azerbaijan? Has anyone looked at the sociopolitical situation in eastern Turkey? Based on the logic that open borders will benefit Armenia: Why the heck hasn't eastern Turkey benefited all these years? Why hasn't Georgia benefited? Why hasn't Nakhijevan/Azerbaijan benefited? What are our idiots thinking? Even if billions of USD were simply waiting to pour into Armenia from the Turkish border - does anyone in their right mind think that Ankara will allow it?

Concerning those who ask - "if Armenia faces the risk then why doesn't Turkey simply open the border and undermine the Armenian economy?"

In my opinion, besides the several fundamental reasons that I outlined in my previous post above, one of the most serious risks for Turkey is the risk of Ankara loosing control of the socioeconomic/political situation over the Kurdish populated areas of eastern Turkey. And the other main reason, Ankara is still hoping for the total collapse of the Armenian Republic. They are simply waiting it out. And this is not a far-fetched hope, for if Washington's plans for the region comes to fruition, that is if the Islamic regime in Iran is forcefully overthrown and Russia pushed out of the Caucasus completely, then Armenia will be at the total mercy of Turkey, Georgia and Azerbaijan.

And I don't have to explain the rest...

Nevertheless, seriously analysis of the geopolitical situation of the region will help one realize that opening borders with Turkey will not have significant longterm benefits for the Armenian Republic. On the contrary, opening of borders and normalization of relations will place the Armenian Republic under longterm geostrategic risks. At the same time, let's pray Russia continues its comeback and Iran maintains its sovereignty.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

My friend you are still not getting it International law is the biggest joke ever. It has no power at all, who is going to force Turkey to give those lands.

Hellektor again needs to be reminded about paper documents...

Hellektor, I know you have read Khrimian Hayrik's "Paper Ladle" speech, I suggest you read it again.

The Paper Ladle

Blessed and beloved Armenians: Now, you have all perked up your ears, impatiently and anxiously waiting to hear what sort of news Khirimian Hayrig has brought us from the Berlin Congress, and what will he say about Article 61 which the powerful governments of the world have bestowed upon the Armenian provinces. Listen carefully to what I am about to say. Grasp the profound meaning of my words and then go and contemplate on my message.

As you know, upon the decision of Patriarch Nersess and the National Assembly, we went to Berlin to present the Armenian Case to the great powers of the Congress. We had great hopes that the Congress would bring peace to the world and liberation to the small and oppressed nations, among which we count ourselves. The Congress convened, the statesmen of the great powers of the world gathered around diplomatic tables covered with green cloth. And we, the small and suppressed nations waited outside the Congress. In the middle of the Congress, upon a table covered with green cloth was placed a large bowl of heriseh (a thick and pasty stew-like meal) from which large and small nations and governments would draw their portion.

Some of the participants pulled to the East, some pulled to the West, and after long debates, in order, one by one, they called the representatives of the small nations [into the meeting]. The Bulgarian entered first, then Serbian and the Gharadaghian. The rattling of the swords hanging from their sides attracted the attention of the assembly. After speaking for some while, these three, pulled out their swords, as if ladles made of iron, and dipped into the bowl, took their portion of heriseh and proudly and boldly departed.

It was now the turn of the Armenian delegate. I drew near with the paper petition from the National Assembly, presented it and asked that they fill my plate too with heriseh. Then, the officials standing before the bowl asked me, "Where is your iron ladle? It is true that we are serving heriseh here, but he who does not have an iron ladle cannot draw from it. Listen up. In the future, if this heriseh is distributed, do not come without a ladle or you will return empty handed.

Dear Armenian people. Could I have dipped my paper ladle in the heriseh? It would have become wet and stayed there. There, where guns talk and swords make noise, what significance do appeals and petitions have? And I saw next to the Gharadaghian, the Bulgarian and other delegates, several brave [men], blood dripping from the swords hanging at their sides. I then turned my head, as if I was looking for the brave men from Zeitoon, Sasoon, Shadakh and other mountainous areas. But where were they? People of Armenia, tell me, where were those brave souls?

Should not one or two of them have been next to me, so that showing their bloody swords to the members of Congress I could have exclaimed, "Look, HERE ARE MY IRON LADLES! They are here, ready!" But alas, all I had was a paper petition, which got wet in the heriseh and we returned empty handed. Truly, had they compared me with the delegates of the Congress, I was taller, my facial features were more attractive. But to what avail? In my hand was placed a piece of paper and not a sword. For this reason we were deprived of the heriseh. In spite of all, in view of the future, going to the Congress of Berlin was not useless.

People of Armenia, of course you understand well what the gun could have done and can do. And so, dear and blessed Armenians, when you return to the Fatherland, to your relatives and friends, take weapons, take weapons and again weapons. People, above all, place the hope of your liberation on yourself. Use your brain and your fist! Man must work for himself in order to be saved.

Source: http://armenianhouse.org/khrimyan-ha...ng-father.html

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Hellektor again needs to be reminded about paper documents...

Hellektor, I know you have read Khrimian Hayrik's "Paper Ladle" speech, I suggest you read it again.

The Paper Ladle

Blessed and beloved Armenians: Now, you have all perked up your ears, impatiently and anxiously waiting to hear what sort of news Khirimian Hayrig has brought us from the Berlin Congress, and what will he say about Article 61 which the powerful governments of the world have bestowed upon the Armenian provinces. Listen carefully to what I am about to say. Grasp the profound meaning of my words and then go and contemplate on my message.

As you know, upon the decision of Patriarch Nersess and the National Assembly, we went to Berlin to present the Armenian Case to the great powers of the Congress. We had great hopes that the Congress would bring peace to the world and liberation to the small and oppressed nations, among which we count ourselves. The Congress convened, the statesmen of the great powers of the world gathered around diplomatic tables covered with green cloth. And we, the small and suppressed nations waited outside the Congress. In the middle of the Congress, upon a table covered with green cloth was placed a large bowl of heriseh (a thick and pasty stew-like meal) from which large and small nations and governments would draw their portion.

Some of the participants pulled to the East, some pulled to the West, and after long debates, in order, one by one, they called the representatives of the small nations [into the meeting]. The Bulgarian entered first, then Serbian and the Gharadaghian. The rattling of the swords hanging from their sides attracted the attention of the assembly. After speaking for some while, these three, pulled out their swords, as if ladles made of iron, and dipped into the bowl, took their portion of heriseh and proudly and boldly departed.

It was now the turn of the Armenian delegate. I drew near with the paper petition from the National Assembly, presented it and asked that they fill my plate too with heriseh. Then, the officials standing before the bowl asked me, "Where is your iron ladle? It is true that we are serving heriseh here, but he who does not have an iron ladle cannot draw from it. Listen up. In the future, if this heriseh is distributed, do not come without a ladle or you will return empty handed.

Dear Armenian people. Could I have dipped my paper ladle in the heriseh? It would have become wet and stayed there. There, where guns talk and swords make noise, what significance do appeals and petitions have? And I saw next to the Gharadaghian, the Bulgarian and other delegates, several brave [men], blood dripping from the swords hanging at their sides. I then turned my head, as if I was looking for the brave men from Zeitoon, Sasoon, Shadakh and other mountainous areas. But where were they? People of Armenia, tell me, where were those brave souls?

Should not one or two of them have been next to me, so that showing their bloody swords to the members of Congress I could have exclaimed, "Look, HERE ARE MY IRON LADLES! They are here, ready!" But alas, all I had was a paper petition, which got wet in the heriseh and we returned empty handed. Truly, had they compared me with the delegates of the Congress, I was taller, my facial features were more attractive. But to what avail? In my hand was placed a piece of paper and not a sword. For this reason we were deprived of the heriseh. In spite of all, in view of the future, going to the Congress of Berlin was not useless.

People of Armenia, of course you understand well what the gun could have done and can do. And so, dear and blessed Armenians, when you return to the Fatherland, to your relatives and friends, take weapons, take weapons and again weapons. People, above all, place the hope of your liberation on yourself. Use your brain and your fist! Man must work for himself in order to be saved.

Source: http://armenianhouse.org/khrimyan-ha...ng-father.html

Armenian after reading that article I had to think about something I heard in a vartan pedrosyan show. Well he was talking about the genocide and holocaust and killing of Stalin how non of the took up arms exxcept in Van, zeytun, musa ler etc. took up arms and defended them self. But laid down their weapons on the request of Europe and to make a long story short they got screwed because they trusted on outside forces. he's a very wise man and I think we should listen what he has to say.

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

While I disagree with your new stance on the matter following recent developments, I would like to repost this piece of article by you, which is a well-thought, insightful, objective and an astute observation of Turkish-Armenian relations, in my opinion. Regardless of the recent political turmoil, I still firmly believe that our little Armenia may only benefit from open borders in the short run but we will have to pay a much much higher price in the long run for the reasons outlined well in this article.

Lucin jan. Personally, I would 'still' want our border with Turkey to remain closed and I 'still' want us to psychologically and physically remain prepared to reclaim western Armenia. But due to the current geopolitical climate in the region I am no longer afraid of having open borders with Turkey. Armenia today is militarily and politically more stable than is has ever been in modern history, although that's not saying much. However, we need to 'evolve' with the current geopolitical climate and adapt to the major changes. Politics, international relations, diplomacy, foreign policy, etc., can't be written in stone, we are not a third world country nor are we a fundamentalist religious state. Armenia's health and nature is directly dependent upon the health and nature of the Caucasus region. If Turkey is afraid of Russia and now wants to talk to us and make offers, why not listen to them and consider their offers. Our Hai Dat is not going anywhere, Artsakh is not going anywhere, what are you so afraid of? My biggest concern about open borders is Turkey controlling Armenia's economy in the longterm. So, I 'still' believe that there could be longterm risks associated with open borders. However, I no longer believe that these risk's are inevitable. In my opinion, it all depends on how the borders are opened, under what terms, and, more importantly, how close we remain to Moscow. So, it no longer is a black and white issue for me. Incidentally, Armen Ayvazian 'not' against having open borders with Turkey under any and all circumstances. Based on what I have seen and heard from him, this is more-or-less his take on the matter: He is mainly and fundamentally afraid of "how" the borders are opened. Since he does not trust the 'live for today' mentality we Armenians have, since he thinks we are a politically immaturity nation, he would rather have the borders remain closed - to be on the safe side. I agree with him. Anyway, this matter should be seriously discussed and debated by all segments of Armenian society.

[Armanen]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Anyway, this matter should be seriously discussed and debated by all segments of Armenian society.

I agree, and here is an article from the Armenian Reporter. It's not much but they asked some residents of Yerevan and Gyumri what they think about the so called "soccer diplomacy" and possible opening of borders with turkey, while we can't expect much from the common person in terms of deep political/economic analysis, none the less there are some pearls of "folk wisdom" if you will.




Armenians speak out about soccer diplomacy
While Armenians would welcome a lifting of the blockade, recognition of the Armenian Genocide is not negotiable


prepared by Armen Hakobyan


YEREVAN and GYUMRI – At Serge Sargsian’s invitation, Turkey’s President Abdullah Gül visited Armenia to watch the World Cup qualifying match between the Armenian and Turkish national soccer teams. Many analysts and political scientists have already evaluated this historic, groundbreaking and extremely important visit, providing the public their take on the future of Armenia-Turkey relations.

There will undoubtedly be much more analysis and discussion about this topic. But what does the average Armenian think about all of this? What is their evaluation? What do they hope for and how do they view the future?

The Armenian Reporter asked citizens in Yerevan and Gyumri to express their opinion. In general people were optimistic, even those who were not in favor of inviting Abdullah Gül to Armenia.


Yerevan

Ashot Kharatyan (economist)
Initially, the roads in the region must be open and people should have contact and then in the future solve all the other issues which concern us. The recognition of the Genocide must be on the table. That might happen 20–30 years later. In the near future only the start of negotiations can begin and the borders can be opened.

Karine Baghdasaryan (accountant)
“I believe that we will not remain eternal enemies with Turkey. Sooner or later, and I am not saying that we will be friendly countries, but it is natural for this conflict to end. It’s true, we are unhappy that they came, that they had the audacity to come, but on the other hand, isn’t it true that many of our compatriots are going there? A lot of them are even living there. It is always possible to communicate with your neighbor.

I expect that we will move forward with insight. Of course, forgetting the past is not an option but there must be some progress in relations.

Susanna Aslanyan (co-op president)
It’s as if the past is being forgotten. But in reality, the Genocide is that issue which can never be forgiven. Perhaps I am wrong, but it is not possible to put on the kind of display that was put on for this visit. As to what my expectations are, because I consider politics to be immoral, although some minimal things might change in Armenia-Turkish relations, however in reality, fundamentally, nothing will change.

Artur Shahinian (musician)
I, for one, have no expectations from Gül’s visit and his meeting with our president, but I have many wishes, which are not tied to or with tomorrow. For example, I hope that the borders are opened, that Turkey recognizes the Genocide, that diplomatic relations are established. But I don’t believe that these will become a reality tomorrow or the next day because the prerequisites for those things do not exist. The fact that a neighboring country’s president is invited, comes, and goes is normal. At any rate, being hospitable is simply courteous. Company must always be welcomed.

Setrak Koloyan (grocer)
I have to say that I completely agree with the Dashnaktsutiun’s (Armenian Revolutionary Federation) protests and demonstrations. I am in favor of them. I understand that we are a hospitable nation, but we didn’t have to welcome them with open arms. I expect that the roads might be opened, there is hope for that. That, in my opinion, is not enough. There are more serious issues, the most serious of which is the recognition of the Genocide. In order for there to be real Armenian-Turkish relations, Turkey must repent for the Genocide and recognize what happened.

Arsen Avakian
I have absolutely no expectations. I don’t see hope for any serious progress until existing issues such as the recognition of the Genocide, the Artsakh conflict, etc., are resolved. It is probable that a few tentative steps be taken, like tourism, opening the borders for trade. Trade and tourism are already taking place through the territory of Georgia. Only when the big issues are resolved can we expect serious progress.

Shoghik Poghosian (economist)
Perhaps it is possible for relations to somewhat develop, for example through contacts between average people. But there is no hope nor any expectation regarding an outcome in our favor regarding the Genocide issue. It’s true, our youth are more concerned now than before, but I don’t believe, I am almost certain, that not one thing will change in Armenian-Turkish relations. By serious change I mean not only the recognition of the Genocide, but that level of reparations that Germany gave to the xxxs. However, I repeat, I have no hope that big changes will occur.

Gyumri

Karush (unemployed locksmith, currently a street vendor)
What can I say, brother? It is desirable that we make up, that the borders are opened. Maybe it will be. It is no longer the days when animosity should remain among peoples. Nothing will change in my life with the border opening of course. For something to change in my life there has to be job openings.

Leonid Melikian (retired mechanical engineer)
Usually when two people have been estranged for a long time, one of the two has to take the high road and initiate the first step to move forward. This is how I see Serge Sargsian’s invitation. I think that this is the beginning so that everything will be better in the future. By better, I mean, that when there is communication, the two sides will find a way out. When there is no communication, there is no way out. And the way out is for the border to be opened, with nominal trade taking place initially. And of course it is the wish of our entire people that the Genocide be recognized.

Hasmik Khachatryan (teacher)
We simply have to be extremely cautious, because our own history and life have shown that the Turks are better diplomats. . . . Yes, it is good to hope, but to believe in Turkish diplomacy, I think, is not possible. We have to be able to train young professionals who can compete with Turkish diplomacy.

About this last visit, there is no value in believing all the smiles. But we can’t leave the situation as it is, something must be started. Finally, we have to work on ourselves, on our people because there is a segment in our society that doesn’t understand that even under the most severe economic and social conditions, you cannot go and work [in Turkey].

Anahid Adamyan (linguist)
I am one of those people who have the most interest in the normalization of Armenian-Turkish relations because we have property there. I have property there. Actually my grandfather has property there and I have the paperwork that has survived to prove it. But I don’t expect anything to happen in the near future. This visit doesn’t mean anything and nothing will change immediately. I think that the Turks and perhaps even we, don’t have the conscious level required to expect serious changes.

Artyom Balyan (sound engineer)
The reality of the Armenian Genocide is rooted in all of us. That is why most Armenians are wary of the Turks and some even hate them. But I, for example, don’t hate the Turks. They are our neighbors and it might be valuable to have good neighborly relations if you forget for one minute the Genocide – but in the next instant you can’t forget it when you go through the pages of history. By going through the pages of history, I mean it is necessary for the Turks to do that.

As for my expectations, I suppose it is obvious to everyone that Turkish diplomacy is one of the best, they know how to take political advantage of any situation, in other words be good neighbors with us but ensuring that it all works in their favor. I have hope that we will be good neighbors. But I don’t believe that our relations will be normalized soon.

Gayane
We have hope that justice will be restored. But let me say, that if Armenian diplomats work like Armenian soccer players competed with the Turks, we will be embarrassed.

Karnig Khachatryan (physician)
Of course, there are expectations. It would be very good if in the first instance the recognition of the Armenian Genocide was resolved. In my opinion however, there is some small progress. In other words, the fact that they, the Turks have started talking about these issues signifies that there are positive changes. In any case, I have some hope. With regard to opening the border, if it is approached intelligently, then it can provide good economic possibilities not only for Gyumri but for Armenia.

Marineh
God willing there will be some development, but whether or not it will happen, I cannot say. At any rate, I hope that Armenian-Turkish relations improve, but we shouldn’t forget the Genocide.

Anna Mazmanian (homemaker)
The roads will be opened, diplomatic relations will be established. And the Genocide issue will always remain. At any rate, establishing relations is always the right thing to do, there is nothing wrong in that, especially that through contact can these issues be raised.

http://www.reporter.am/pages/2008-09-13/gul-gyumri.html

And here is a link to what Glendale Armenians had to say.

http://www.reporter.am/pages/2008-09-13/gul-glendale.html

[Armenian]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I have some information that will interest many of you:

As some of you may recall, I had revealed from Yerevan on August 12 that one or two days prior to that date a successful military operation was carried out by Armenian forces against a strategic Azeri position in the Martakert region of Nagorno Karabagh. Here is the post: http://forum.armenianclub.com/showpo...postcount=2231

As you also know, for some reason, the military operation in question was not reported on by any of the news agencies.

Well, I met with a friend today that just came back from Armenia. While we were talking about the current political climate in the Caucasus he said to me that during the first few days of the Russian-Georgian war Armenian military units attacked Azeri positions in the northern Martakert region killing dozens of Azeri soldiers and taking approximately 20,000 hectars of land. I had not told him that I already knew of the military operation he was referring to, although I had no idea that 20,000 hectars of land was liberated (note: I knew about the military operation in question through the mother of a young soldier involved in the operation). I said to him - this was not reported in the news, how do you know this information? He said he was made aware of this information through a high ranking military officer that he knows through his wife in Yerevan. I asked him why did Yerevan/Stepanakert take this risk and why was it not reported by any of the news agencies.

He said, the military operation brought Armenian forces within easy striking distance of the BTC pipeline in Azerbaijan. He also said, the military operation was most likely carried out in tandem with Russian military officials. According to the military officer my friend had spoken to, this move was done to convince Baku and Ankara that the situation on the ground in the Caucasus had been drastically altered and serious political changes would have to be made as a result. One of the changes, according to him, will be the expulsion of the US/EU from the Caucasus and the other, opening of borders between Armenia and Turkey. According to the military officer, most probably Baku did not reveal this event in any press releases because of the high geopolitical sensitivity of the situation and because they knew Moscow was behind it.

What's more, the military official claimed that Turkish/Azeri press releases regarding Artsakh and the Armenian Genocide were for domestic consumption, and not much else. What's more, he claimed that not a single meter of Artsakh are in discussion. As a matter of fact, according to this information, Artsakh has grown by '20,000' hectars. Apparently, as many of us have been suspecting, Moscow has been fully behind this entire ordeal, even months before the war in Georgia. Moscow has forced Sargsyan to open the borders, Moscow has forced Ankara to talk to Yerevan. According to my friend, Moscow seems to be devising a major economic plan for the region and Armenia seems to be the key to realizing their plans.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Good stuff. So if the operation took place in the occupied portion of Mardakert (north-east) and that we liberated 20 000 hectares (200 km square) then this means the remaining portion of Mardakert that was under Azerbaboon occupation remains no longer in their control, right?

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I have some information that will interest many of you:
Well, I met with a friend today that just came back from Armenia. While we were talking about the current political climate in the Caucasus he said to me that during the first few days of the Russian-Georgia war Armenian military units attacked Azeri positions in the northern Martakert region killing dozens of Azeri soldiers and taking approximately 20,000 hectars of land. I had not told him that I already knew of the military operation he was referring to, although I had no idea that 20,000 hectars of land was liberated.

What's more, the military official claimed that Turkish/Azeri press releases regarding Artsakh and the Armenian Genocide were for domestic consumption, and not much else. What's more, he claimed that not a single meter of Artsakh are in discussion. As a matter of fact, according to this information, Artsakh has grown by '20,000' hectars.Apparently, as many of us have been suspecting, Moscow has been fully behind this entire ordeal, even months before the war in Georgia. Moscow has forced Sargsyan to open the borders, Moscow has forced Ankara to talk to Yerevan. According to my friend, Moscow seems to be devising a major economic plan for the region and Armenia seems to be the key to realizing their plans.

Well Armenian paregam, you have fully made my evening!!!!! I am now going to open up a good bottle of wine and drink it with great happiness!!! And especially in view of the fact that the azeri infested soldiers demolished our 2,500 'Xachkars' on broad daylight, if one of these days we can also liberate our Naxichevan, I'll be first to get up and dance with a great happiness in my heart!!!!! Hoorray for this news!!!!!