Armenian-Turkish Relations

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations



"I regret to say that the process of normalizing Turkish-Armenian relations is not without preconditions at all. Two of Turkey's three well-known preconditions are directly stated in the protocols, while the third one is indirectly stated," deputy of the NA "Heritage" faction, politician Stepan Safaryan told "A1+" today.

By saying two preconditions, Safaryan means the process that Turkey began in 1991 to recognizing the current borders with Armenia based on the Kars Treaty and obligating Armenia to discuss the issue of Armenian Genocide. Turkey's third precondition refers to the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict.

"According to one of the protocols, the sides condemn terrorism, violence and all extremist acts regardless of their motives. This means that regardless of the fact that the people of Nagorno-Karabakh have legal and substantiated reasons that led to attacks, Turkey and Armenia will work together against the Nagorno-Karabakh people's struggle for the law. This is an evident push for changing Armenia's positions on the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. It is simply the end," says Safaryan.

The politician finds that the National Assembly is also getting involved in the game and it is being held responsible for ratifiying the anti-Armenian protocols. "If Serzh Sargsyan is truly interested in going to Turkey and the majority supporting him are sincere, what the Turkish side is saying is to ratify the protocols before Serzh Sargsyan's visit to Turkey. The Turkish parliament also faces this issue. The global community tells both sides to prove that they are interested in improvement of Turkish-Armenian relations. "Heritage" will do everything it can to defend the interests of the Armenian side in the negotiations," Stepan Safaryan promised "A1+".

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations




"If Armenia accepts the proposed protocols, Turkey will receive all it wanted. I mourn for you, Armenia. The "Protocol on Establishment of Diplomatic Relations between the Republic of Armenia and the Republic of Turkey" lays down three preconditions for the Republic of Armenia," says head of the "Modus Vivendi" center, Turkish Studies expert Ara Papyan who is currently conducting research on Turkish-Armenian relations in Canada.

"Today we can register that the reality is more horrible than the worst predictions. The protocols propose the Armenian authorities to accept all three precondtions laid down by Turkey," Ara Papyan told "A1+" today.

The diplomat also touched upon the three preconditions:

"Turkey's first precondition is the denial of our rights and our territorial claims from Turkey, that is, recognition of borders. The second precondition is to leave Nagorno-Karabakh within Azerbaijan; in other words, the only resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh is based on the principle of territorial integrity. The third precondition is to stop the process of international recognition of the Armenian Genocide and this one has been met. The sub-committee involved in historical issues is among the sub-committees to be created.

According to Papyan, the most important issue stated in the protocol is the issue concerning the Armenian Genocide. "It is evident that if Armenia accepts the proposed protocols, Turkey will get all it wanted. What will we get out of it? Are we that short-sighted to legalize the seizure of Armenian territories and the our property by the Republic of Turkey and lay the future of our people on the line?"

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations



"The current authorities want to "throw" the burden off their shoulders and that is why they say that the protocols must be ratified by the parliament," former NA chairman Babken Ararktsyan told "A1+".

"The Constitution separates the responsibilities of the National Assembly, the President and the Government. There must be political will and determination instead of throwing the burden on other people's shoulders," says Ararktsyan

Ararktsyan has generally been in favor of normalization of Turkish-Armenian relations since the 1990s."But we must understand what price we are paying for that. Once, for the first time, chairman of the USSR Committee of Ministers Kosigin announced that the Soviet Union has no territorial claims from Turkey and that caused a heated reaction not only in Armenia, but in the Diaspora as well. Then Robert Kocharyan made a similar announcement, but they were just oral. Now the borders will be set on paper; in other words, this is between two states," says Babken Ararktsyan.

Ararktsyan is also concerned about the timeline for discussions and consultations.

"The issue had to be solved through serious, detailed discussions and not through a six-week discussion. Leading this most significant and fatal issue based on some football game timeline is an immoral attitude toward the issue concerning Armenians everywhere."

Ararktsyan views the recent dangers of war in the context of the propaganda.

"They are presenting the danger of war to our people so that they can justify that there would be a war otherwise."

Babken Ararksyan also knows that the protocols are directly tied to the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict resolution. "I think that all possible and impossible concessions were made before the Turkish side agreed to this kind of protocol."

According to Ararktsyan, the Turkish side tried to present the issue of the Turkish-Armenian commission in secret, but it is clear that it is stated in the document and thus, the genocide issue is not only excluded from the agenda of the international community, but it is also out of the relations between Turkey and Armenia.

Serzh Sargsyan has clarified that there will be a sub-committee of the intergovernmental commission. In response to that, Ararktsyan said: "That is another god-for-saken slyness. It just has to be translated into normal words and everything will be clear."

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Muk would rather fight to the death against the turcks that way he would not have to see his people get slaughtered because he would now be dead and whatever happens to them won't matter anymore. Unfortunately many others especially in the dashnak party live under the dillusion that by being brave and stubborn they will get turckey to do what they want despite all the evidence to the contrary. The biggest problem i have is that these people undermine the security and the interests of the very thing they claim to be fighting for. So lets see now, you want turckey to give us our lands, pay us compensation, admit the genocide, not to interfere with kharabagh or else you and your huge and powerfull but immaginery army will kill every turck. I think it is great that the dashnaks fight for our causes but they have time and again made huge blunders which have cost our nation lives and lands and i hope people are smart enough to figure this much out. The dashnak party needs cool headed-intelligent leaders and members. It has too many hot blooded crazys who see the world in only the most simplistic form and have no consept of the consequences their actions bring. Why is it do you think that dashnaks cant win politicaly in Armenia, it is because the people do not trust them to represent their best interests. Armenians in Armenia already went through a war plus a earthquake plus a economic collapse... they do not want more war yet war is all dashnaks like mukuch preach, and not just war but a unwinnable one at that. Sure russia makes many of the decisions for armenia and these decisions are more inline with russian interests then armenias but the fact is that it is thanks to these interests that we have a armenia worth talking about today. If it was not for russia armenia simply would not be there atall despite any wetdream scenerios some of these crazys would dream up. Armenia has less real choices then most people here seem to realize and the people who rule armenia need to make her more prosperous for their own good if nothing else. War is not in our interest, we should never forget our past nor what was taken from us but commiting suicide will fix nothing either. I wish Muk and others like him would come back down to earth and join the rest of us in the real world where they would still probably be welcomed despite their past namecallings and offencive behaviors.

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations



Armenia brought the possibility of normalization of Turkish-Armenian relations close," Serzh Sargsyan announced today during a meeting with heads of the central apparatus of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, diplomatic representations and consulates in Armenia.

He also emphasized: "We have tried to normalize relations with our neighboring country with dignity and as it is appropriate in the world of the 21st century. I believe that these protocols provide that opportunity. The drafts released yesterday reflect three truths:

1. As I have said several times, our negotiations with Turkey and the agreements we have reached don't contain any precondition related to the peaceful resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflct or any other issue connected to that.
2. As we claimed, the historical issues facing Turkish-Armenian relations must be discussed not by a commission of historians, but in the format of one of the sub-committees of the intergovernmental commission.
3. For the first time in the history of independent Armenia, following the signing of the international documents will be public forums, which will provide the opportunity to hear all comments and approaches.

Serzh Sargsyan attached importance to the active participation of everyone. "You must play an active role during the public discussions in Armenia and the Diaspora. You must go into detail and explain the propositions of the protocols to be signed with all its positive and, why not, disputable components."

Serzh Sargsyan informed that he foresees active discussions in the Armenian communities of the Diaspora and international centers for investigation as well.

"In that sense, it is also your job to ensure the necessary platforms for the meetings and speeches by the speakers from Armenia."

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Muk would rather fight to the death against the turcks that way he would not have to see his people get slaughtered because he would now be dead and whatever happens to them won't matter anymore. Unfortunately many others especially in the dashnak party live under the dillusion that by being brave and stubborn they will get turckey to do what they want despite all the evidence to the contrary. The biggest problem i have is that these people undermine the security and the interests of the very thing they claim to be fighting for. So lets see now, you want turckey to give us our lands, pay us compensation, admit the genocide, not to interfere with kharabagh or else you and your huge and powerfull but immaginery army will kill every turck. I think it is great that the dashnaks fight for our causes but they have time and again made huge blunders which have cost our nation lives and lands and i hope people are smart enough to figure this much out. The dashnak party needs cool headed-intelligent leaders and members. It has too many hot blooded crazys who see the world in only the most simplistic form and have no consept of the consequences their actions bring. Why is it do you think that dashnaks cant win politicaly in Armenia, it is because the people do not trust them to represent their best interests. Armenians in Armenia already went through a war plus a earthquake plus a economic collapse... they do not want more war yet war is all dashnaks like mukuch preach, and not just war but a unwinnable one at that. Sure russia makes many of the decisions for armenia and these decisions are more inline with russian interests then armenias but the fact is that it is thanks to these interests that we have a armenia worth talking about today. If it was not for russia armenia simply would not be there atall despite any wetdream scenerios some of these crazys would dream up. Armenia has less real choices then most people here seem to realize and the people who rule armenia need to make her more prosperous for their own good if nothing else. War is not in our interest, we should never forget our past nor what was taken from us but commiting suicide will fix nothing either. I wish Muk and others like him would come back down to earth and join the rest of us in the real world where they would still probably be welcomed despite their past namecallings and offencive behaviors.

Committing suicide is more honorable than selling out your people. The Armenian government does have leverage if it chose to use its current position and the diaspora to push its agenda through the churches and armenian communities around the world. Instead they'd rather just give in to higher powers, accept some money from Swiss bank accounts, sign some documents and call it a day.

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations




Turkish studies expert Ruben Safrastyan welcomed the protocol on development of relations between Turkey and Armenia. He qualified the protocol and the significance of the Turkish-Armenian roadmap as important and a landmark for Armenia.

"We must take these two documents very seriously. The diplomats have done a huge amount of work and the signing of these documents could be qualified as the success of the diplomacy that began a year ago," said Ruben Safrastyan. According to him, the protocol goes to show that Turkey has refused its preconditions.

"There is nothing mentioned about tying Turkish-Armenian relations with the resolution of the Nagorno-Karabakh conflict. It is also not mentioned that Armenia must refuse its policy on genocide recognition," said Ruben Safrastyan. According to him, the protocol was also a possible reaction to Serzh Sargsyan's announcement to not visit Turkey.

Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmed Davudoghli announced that the Turkish-Armenian border will not be opened in this stage and that Ankara will take Azerbaijan's interests in each stage of normalization of relations. In response to this, the diplomat said:

"True, the border will not be opened immediately and our diplomats must try to continue their steps. The problem is that the Turkish Foreign Ministry is making that announcement, while the Armenian Foreign Ministry keeps silent. But I must also say that while the Turkish Foreign Ministry's website features the announcement by Davudoghlu, the texts of the protocol and the roadmap are not on the website. Meanwhile, the Armenian ministry did that last night. This is a certain working style that we must get used to," said Ruben Safrastyan.

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

BBC: Mr. Serzh Sargsyan will you attend the return match in Turkey?

Serzh Sargsyan: The question has two answers. The fist answer is as follows. It's not important whether I'll visit Turkey or not. I'd like to say that my visit to Turley should not be linked to the relations between the two countries. Do you understand me? Imagine at least two options. Let's assume that Armenia freezes the negotiation process with Turkey and I leave for that country to watch the football match. The second option is as follows: the two countries continue negotiating, but I don't attend the match. Which is more important? This is my answer if you ask the question in the context of our talks with Turkey.

BBC: What signals is Armenia expecting from Turkey in order to defreeze the talks?

Serzh Sargsyan: I have already announced and say once again that I shall leave for Turkey only in case of opening of the border or at the threshold of the event. We have an agreement with Turkey. I think it's normal and correct for the parties to commit to the agreement reached earlier. Unfortunately, so far I have not seen a great desire and aspiration to implement those agreements. Our wish remains the same - to establish relations without preconditions

BBC: Is Armenia ready to make concessions as regards the events of 1915 and do you believe Turkey will call them genocide?

Serzh Sargsyan: "Of course, it's very important for our people, for Turkey and the whole world. It's important that historical justice be restored. It's important for our nations to be able to establish normal relations. At last, it's important that it never reoccurs in the future. But we do not see the recognition of genocide as a precondition for the establishment of relations.

BBC: Do you mean to say that there is an opportunity of compromise?

Serzh Sargsyan: "It cannot be called compromise. This is not the case to speak about compromises. We say, yes, there was genocide, and irrespective of the fact whether Turkey recognizes it or not, there is a fact established by all genocide scholars in the world and recognized by many countries of the world. However, today we do not view it as a precondition for normalization of relations.

BBC: Anyway, that problem is an obstacle to regulate ties with Turkey. A man, with whom I have had a talk earlier in Yerevan, recommended another solution: when you drive you should follow your back side and look at the mirror showing the back of you but the important thing is the way in front you. How well does this example describe the current situation?

Serzh Sargsyan - Right, I can see quite well what the man wanted to say. He wants to say that we should look into future, but we do not have the right to forget the past.

[Mukuch]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Parev,

Exactly why are US policy-makers pressuring Armenia to accept a "historical commission"?

You deserve an honest answer:

http://www.capwiz.com/anca/issues/alert/?alertid=13982691&type=CO

Here's the suggested text on the ANCA website of a letter to your members of Congress. It would take about 120 seconds to send.

===========================

Dear Senator/Representative:

I am writing to you, as my voice in the U.S. Congress, with a formal request that you investigate and share with me your findings on a foreign policy matter that holds great moral, political, and historical meaning.

My appeal to you is to make formal inquiries of the State Department regarding the Administration’s morally indefensible pressure on Armenia to accept Turkey’s proposal to establish a Turkish-Armenian “historical commission.”

In recent days, Armenia, blockaded by Turkey, the successor state to the Ottoman Empire that launched the Armenian Genocide, and under intense economic and diplomatic pressure, was forced to sign a set of deeply flawed and dangerous protocols that called for, in the words of The New York Times (9/1/09), “the formation of an international history commission to study the Armenian genocide, the central dispute between the countries.” This proposal is as patently offensive as an official state-sponsored commission that would bring together historians and deniers of the Holocaust. It, tragically, represents a victory for Turkey’s campaign of denial, which has long sought international legitimacy for its shameless efforts to cast doubt on the settled history of this crime against humanity.

I am outraged that my government would support, in any way, the creation of this commission or any other measure intended to question the Armenian Genocide. U.S. backing is both morally wrong and diplomatically counter-productive. The fact remains: There can be no enduring relationship between Armenia and Turkey that is not built upon the foundation of Turkey’s acceptance of a true and just resolution of this crime.

Turkey’s true intentions in seeking to create such an artificial commission is clearly illustrated by the fact that, even as its seeks, in the international arena, to garner credit by appearing open to dialogue, it is, back at home, criminalizing even the mere mention of the Armenian Genocide through statutes such as Article 301, which sets jail terms of up to 2 years for “insulting the Turkish nation.”

I urge you to write to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, firstly, to register your opposition to any U.S. monetary, political, or other support for a “historical commission” or any other initiative that questions the veracity of the Armenian Genocide, and secondly, to request a full accounting of any activities on the part of the U.S. government in connection to the “historical commission” and other related undertakings.

Denial is the last stage of past genocides, and, tragically, the first stage of the next genocide. Our government, unlike Armenia – which is under tremendous duress – is in a powerful position to reject both Turkey’s heavy-handed denial tactics and its profoundly offensive efforts to enlist the American people in its campaign of lies and cover-ups.

I would very much appreciate learning of the results of your inquiries with the Department of State, and thank you in advance for your assistance in this regard.

Sincerely,

===========================

Thanks,

Aram Hamparian

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I urge you to write to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, firstly, to register your opposition to any U.S. monetary, political, or other support for a “historical commission” or any other initiative that questions the veracity of the Armenian Genocide, and secondly, to request a full accounting of any activities on the part of the U.S. government in connection to the “historical commission” and other related undertakings.

Denial is the last stage of past genocides, and, tragically, the first stage of the next genocide. Our government, unlike Armenia – which is under tremendous duress – is in a powerful position to reject both Turkey’s heavy-handed denial tactics and its profoundly offensive efforts to enlist the American people in its campaign of lies and cover-ups.

I would very much appreciate learning of the results of your inquiries with the Department of State, and thank you in advance for your assistance in this regard.

Sincerely,

===========================

Thanks,

Aram Hamparian

Since when did this guy develop a back bone?