Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

You're quite right on this point, but lets think for a moment... in whose favor will such protocols be interpreted? In the favor of the weaker or stronger state? Obviously the stronger. So by Armenia signing the document, it is already an admission that these things will be judged in Turkey's favor. They will set up a commission to decide whether or not there was a genocide, and if Armenia refuses Turkey will use it as bait to tell the world, "look, Armenia was willing to open a commission, and now they're backing out, so they are backing out of the protocols and we cannot establish diplomatic relations".

So what would you recommend? Agreeing to a "historical commission"? Lets see the possible pros and cons of this:

1. In the best-case scenario, the historical commission will take us back to zero, in other words, it will say there was an Armenian Genocide. Great, we are back to square one, waiting for Turkey to accept it. Nowhere in the protocol does it say Turkey has to accept the decision of the commission, and if they did, there is no way in hell they would sign the document unless they knew 100% that the commission was paid off in their favor.

2. More likely, the commission will either reject that it was a genocide, or it will reach a stalemate. Both cases are detrimental to us, because Turkey can say "the commission could not prove it was genocide", and use that as propaganda for many years to come.

I know that Armenia is doing this for Russia's economic benefit. So why do they need to set up a commission of historians? Why do they need to make Armenia recognize Turkey's fake borders, and give up our legal claim to western Armenia? Is this really in Russia's interest? No. We can open borders without touching any of these issues, but Turkey and the US insist that they include these provisions. We should talk to Russia and say look, we are ready to open the border if you get these issues off the agenda. If they say sorry we can't do that, then say sorry we can't accept these proposals. If need be, we should drag Russia into this issue, whether they like it or not, because this is all their idea in the first place.


As to accepting the fake borders... once we give up our legal claim to western Armenia, our country will forever imprison itself as a landlocked, resourceless, tiny republic, doomed to an eternity of weakness. They are asking Armenia to agree to tie a noose around its own neck, so that Turkey can kick the box from under our legs in a few decades.

I think you forget just how pointless legal claims are in reality. This world has always been and always will be dominated by the strong and no legal claim or document will change this. I cannot believe you guys still bicker about past treaties when it is obvious they are meaningless and the law is made by the powerfull nations of the day. I keep saying this but it just does not seem to sink home for some reason with many people, there is one and only one way to go here and that is to make our little Armenia into a bigger stronger one without killing it along the way. The xxxs got what they wanted by dominating, manipulating, decieving the most powerfull country on earth and they will not let anyone else do the same because they own the usa and do not want to share. Armenia has no choice, it must align its interests with russias even when they are not the same so that it can continue to exist. We are very lucky that Russia sees panturckism as a threat to its national security and uses us to prevent it or else there would not be a Armenia to speak of today. Bottom line-russia guerentees our security and we pay for it by giving up much of our sovreignty. Good or bad thats how it is and it is not going to change anytime soon and if it does change we are in deep xxxx. Be carefull what the Mukuch types wish for because if they get it, if russia really says to hell with you armenians then we are truelly screwed. During soviet times Armenia was one of the best places to live in the whole union and the people were educated, healthy and polite. Here we are 20 years later and Armenia still has not reached its soviet days standard of living. Add to this war, earthquake,blockade.. and you start to wonder why there are still people living there at all. You cannot keep jeapordise what little there is left of our homeland by saying lets keep fighting and not nagotiate because even the strongest of fighters are bound to lose if they keep fighting, and armenia is not that strong to begin with.We won kharabagh fair and square and we need to consolidate this gain even if it means giving up some other things we consider important. We can grow Armenia into a stronger country but we need to do it slowly, a step at a time so that the big powers hardly notice us growing because if they do notice then they will make us shrink again.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

armenia needs a revolution, and an establishment of a nationalist dictatorship. Full stop.

I am in total agreement with you!!!

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

LoL Anoush do u live in armenia and u want Dictatorship?or u just make fun of the guy?

Cause its ultra foolish to say that...u wish misery for people that live in Armenia and u stay in ur well paid job and nice house somewhere in USA.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

LoL Anoush do u live in armenia and u want Dictatorship?or u just make fun of the guy?

Cause its ultra foolish to say that...u wish misery for people that live in Armenia and u stay in ur well paid job and nice house somewhere in USA.

Dictatorship isn't misery... it's one SMART person taking control of all the resources of the land and efficiently distributing it to the people so they can quickly build and strengthen the country instead of spending time pissing in the wind trying to figure out how to survive day to day.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

LoL Anoush do u live in armenia and u want Dictatorship?or u just make fun of the guy?

Cause its ultra foolish to say that...u wish misery for people that live in Armenia and u stay in ur well paid job and nice house somewhere in USA.

Although i am not against a effective dictatorship i will say i agree with your point that most diaspora armenians talk big because they know it is not going to effect them directly. If they lived in Armenia they would be singing a entirely different tune.

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Dictatorship isn't misery... it's one SMART person taking control of all the resources of the land and efficiently distributing it to the people so they can quickly build and strengthen the country instead of spending time pissing in the wind trying to figure out how to survive day to day.

kAnaDaHye u most stop bumping in treads and start support randomly the most unproductive and stupid post in the forum just for fun.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkish Armenian Protocol welcomed by France and US

A protocol agreed between Turkey and Armenia on Monday under Swiss mediation declaring that the two countries will conduct internal political consultations to be concluded within six weeks has been welcomed by the US and France.

- France and the US are the co-chairs with Russia of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe's (OSCE) Minsk Group, which has been mediating for one-and-a-half decades to resolve the Nagorno-Karabakh dispute.

Read the rest here
http://www.todayszaman.com/tz-web/ne...ce-and-us.html

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

kAnaDaHye u most stop bumping in treads and start support randomly the most unproductive and stupid post in the forum just for fun.

I was being serious... if you think people in the U.S.A. all live in big houses and have happy lives, you have to stop watching T.V.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I disagree with you Haykakan. If that's what Russia wants then the hell with them too. Mukuch is absolutely right. If at all Armenia agrees to these bloody protocols then we are doomed. It is disgustingly demeaning for our cause to go any further with these bloody turks and opening the borders the hell with them. There must be a revolution within the people and the people must know what their president is signing.

To give away the recognition of the Genocide and with it any repremends from Turkey ever! Neither land nor money;

Already the government in the US in California are controlling three judges to Not give any money to the Genocide survivors; they are extending laws to reprimend the Jews but no not the Armenians.

To make the Armenia's president sign the illegal Kars Treaty that Armenia was never part of it and Attaturk signed it when it was illegal as he was not in legality to sign it as the head of the country at that time.

By signing the illegal Kars Treaty; Armenia will forever remain as tiny and as small as she is until her demease to be walked all over by turkey and "azerbaijan".

Turkey will finally get rid of Artsakh lands belonging to Armenians. Because they still want Pan-Turkism and with the help of US and Israel; they will get rid of us.

Armenia must revolutianize and put a statesman and a President who has the guts to back-off from turkey, their lies lies lies lies and lies.

Armenia needs a revolution and a statesman who will not give away their sovereignty and which will happen in less than ten years; the way it is going.

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

A then im sorry its just to hard for me to understand why a man that supposedly is in a bastion of democracy and freedom (note,war in Iraq,Afganistan) have so much willingness to give up his wrights to some dictator to fix the wrong of his country and then i guess expect from him to f u ck off when the job is done,so then u image yourself as a true Democrat.