Armenian-Turkish Relations

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

How the hell is Serj going to stand up to the whole world?

With winning the hearts, the minds and the solidarity and devotion of the Armenian people worldwide.

Need i remind you that our only gueranteer of our security,Russia, wants him to sign this to?

Yes, because of geopolitical shifts between US and Russia, the former believes this will also be of benefit in terms of energy supplies and routes.

It is pretty funny when you choose to ignore what the turcks are saying on every other occasion yet this one you choose now to display.

I am not quite clear what you mean here? What have I ignored? I have been following this process since at least 2001, when the State Department and CFR put together the 'Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission.' Same brokers back then, however, as former Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian noted, it was flatly rejected by the Armenian government because it was clearly in favor of the Turks. The terms in the protocols that we have now are even worst as they pose a clear and present danger to the very statehood of Armenia.

I dont know about you but i dont need Ara Papian to tell me that western armenia should legally be oursa , i know it should be already and so does everyone else.

Therein lies your ignorance, because 'wishing' is not how international laws, treaties and policies are made. The international system operates by treaties and laws, once again read what the Turks are saying and what they are after through these protocols.

Your crazy if you think a man who put his life on the line during a bloody war is going to sell out that same country for political issues.

He has never been on the frontline and has never fired a single shot. How he ended up in the NKR Defense Committee, you can read in the memoires of many freedom fighters who actually did fight on the frontlines and many giving their lives, including many heroic commanders who were killed as a 'challenge' to this very so-called 'Defense Committee.' I have zero respect for someone who likes to gamble, and no I don't mean his gambling in Monte Carlo, but his gambling with the future of the Armenian people.

Your argument is swiss cheese its choked full of holes. Documents and treaties mean nothing, zero, zilch, nada...without power to back them up.

Incorrect, you need both. We won in Artsakh, but we need a treaty a legal binding international document [like what the Turks are doing now with the protocols] in order to secure and complete that victory on the diplomatic and international arena.

This document is being signed because all parties involved, including Armenia and Russia have much to gain from it.

Russia perhaps (one can argue about this one also in terms of long term). However, Armenia gives up its most vital and important national security asset which believe it or not is the Armenian Cause. Armenians give up the fight by signing a legal, internationally binding document that states that Armenians have no claims towards Republic of Turkey. This includes property and land worth trillions of dollars...not to mention that they are in fact to virtually every single Armenian priceless...since this land is our historic and sacred homeland that contains the relics of our ancestors, even as ruins they are, as I said priceless, like Ararat, Ani or Van.

Non of the other documents you mention can be signed without a successful war against turckey and the world is not willing to go to war with turcks yet. If Armenias leaders thought like you there would not be a Armenia today. Armenia needs to survive and build its strength and who knows one day it may have the oppertunity to get what it deserves in every way.

Turkish leaders like Erdogan and Gul are now openly boasting about bringing back the 'glories' of the Ottoman Empire. They are publishing maps for their school children which does not include even one single square kilometer of Armenia...it is all (including the few percent we have left over of historic Armenia) is Turkey.

http://news.am/en/news/5484.html

Read the statements of the Turkic presidents during the meeting that took place in Nakhichevan, they said that they will do their utmost to have a land link that connects all Turkic nations together.

[Anoush]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Anoush jan, let me ask you a rhetorical question. You have two options and can only pick one. The first is Armenia doesn't sign any documents with turkey and pursues the legal route of getting Western Armenia back. Second is Armenia signs the protocols and pursues the same goal as above, economically. Note that in both cases Armenia is taking a chance, it may or may not work out in Armenia's favor in either case. Now, which option would you pick and why?

OK Armanen, how is it possible by signing the protocols that align itself with the illegal Kars Treaty and signs off any parts or the mere hope of getting Western Armenia back will help us in any shape or form? Do you forget what Baruyr Sevag said in some of his poetry? Mer hoghere, mer sourp hoghere khelets meznits teshnamin. You think economically you'll get ahead with the turkish industries and start making bucks; let's suppose we do much better economically; but you also forget demographically as you also mentioned it before and so have I, that as it stand today we have a small little nation with 3 million population that do not produce more than 1-2 children per family while they may go up to 8 or 9 per family and if they are allowed to come in and overpopulate themselves our little Armenia who for now are 90+% all Armenian, doesn't that scares you? It scares the heck out of me.

I would much prefer not to sign the protocols, keep the status quo, see to it that Artsakh is accepted by world powers and RA by working with the Diasporan Armenians to have more countries accept the Genocide recognition and spread all over the world about the Wilson Arbitration and the legality of it. And you'll continue to have the Diasporan Armenians pouring their monies into RA. If you sign the protocols and turkey will eventually take over, I don't expect any Diasporan Armenian to keep on pouring their monies into a land that it wouldn't be much of Armenian land sooner than you think.

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

You are welcomed Catharsis jan, it's just that it is overwhelmingly sad that the turks' Lausanne Treaty that was not even legit, now thanks to our government in RA, namely Serje he'll be signing away any hope that we could have had of owning again at least parts of Western Armenia. The Wilson Arbitration that was completely legitimate, this guy Serje is forever signing it off and for what? To stay good with the US and Russia. This is a complete historical blunder on our part. I simply cannot believe it.

Indeed Anoush, there is still time, but with all the secrecy and lies when it came to these protocols, once again Sargsyan is being dishonest by saying this is "all" his "idea" and there is "no international pressure..." As I said, a good start is for him to start being honest and straightforward with the Armenian people. However, based on what we know now, I am not optimistic in this regard.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

With winning the hearts, the minds and the solidarity and devotion of the Armenian people worldwide.



Yes, because of geopolitical shifts between US and Russia, the former believes this will also be of benefit in terms of energy supplies and routes.



I am not quite clear what you mean here? What have I ignored? I have been following this process since at least 2001, when the State Department and CFR put together the 'Turkish-Armenian Reconciliation Commission.' Same brokers back then, however, as former Foreign Minister Vartan Oskanian noted, it was flatly rejected by the Armenian government because it was clearly in favor of the Turks. The terms in the protocols that we have now are even worst as they pose a clear and present danger to the very statehood of Armenia.



Therein lies your ignorance, because 'wishing' is not how international laws, treaties and policies are made. The international system operates by treaties and laws, once again read what the Turks are saying and what they are after through these protocols.



He has never been on the frontline and has never fired a single shot. How he ended up in the NKR Defense Committee, you can read in the memoires of many freedom fighters who actually did fight on the frontlines and many giving their lives, including many heroic commanders who were killed as a 'challenge' to this very so-called 'Defense Committee.' I have zero respect for someone who likes to gamble, and no I don't mean his gambling in Monte Carlo, but his gambling with the future of the Armenian people.




Incorrect, you need both. We won in Artsakh, but we need a treaty a legal binding international document [like what the Turks are doing now with the protocols] in order to secure and complete that victory on the diplomatic and international arena.



Russia perhaps (one can argue about this one also in terms of long term). However, Armenia gives up its most vital and important national security asset which believe it or not is the Armenian Cause. Armenians give up the fight by signing a legal, internationally binding document that states that Armenians have no claims towards Republic of Turkey. This includes property and land worth trillions of dollars...not to mention that they are in fact to virtually every single Armenian priceless...since this land is our historic and sacred homeland that contains the relics of our ancestors, even as ruins they are, as I said priceless, like Ararat, Ani or Van.



Turkish leaders like Erdogan and Gul are now openly boasting about bringing back the 'glories' of the Ottoman Empire. They are publishing maps for their school children which does not include even one single square kilometer of Armenia...it is all (including the few percent we have left over of historic Armenia) is Turkey.

http://news.am/en/news/5484.html

Read the statements of the Turkic presidents during the meeting that took place in Nakhichevan, they said that they will do their utmost to have a land link that connects all Turkic nations together.

I have been arguing with your types all week and all the answers to your questions and responces to your posts are in my previous posts, if you want go look at them, if you dont then i could'tcare less. There is nothing in your posts that are new or provide a new percpective so the answers already posted will suffice.

[Catharsis]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I have been arguing with your types all week and all the answers to your questions and responces to your posts are in my previous posts, if you want go look at them, if you dont then i could'tcare less. There is nothing in your posts that are new or provide a new percpective so the answers already posted will suffice.

Likewise the above posts are for those who are not familiar with what is going on. I have not followed what you have argued and hence similarly, as I said, my posts are not for "your types" as you put it, but for those Armenians who want to better understand for themselves what is taking place at this historic juncture in Armenian history.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

ANKARA (Hurriyet)—The Armenia-Turkey protocols will reaffirm Turkey’s borders with Armenia as outlined by the Lausanne Treaty of 1923, said Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu during a press conference Thursday.

Turkish politicians like to talk a lot of sh*t. Even if we reaffirm Lausanne, so what? Nowhere in the Treaty of Lausanne does it define the Turkish-Armenian border. Its a worthless treaty in regards to western Armenia. All it does is recognize Turkey as a sovereign nation.

Signing Kars might be a different story.

[Haykakan]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Likewise the above posts are for those who are not familiar with what is going on. I have not followed what you have argued and hence similarly, as I said, my posts are not for "your types" as you put it, but for those Armenians who want to better understand for themselves what is taking place at this historic juncture in Armenian history.

O there is something taking place alright but it is exactly the opposit of what you think it is. See your thinking Serj and the hayastantsis are selling out our ancestral rights but in reality Armenia is being forced into a agreement it cannot refuse and one that is not all bad for it either. The realy bad part is that this is going to cause a rift between the diaspora and Armenia all because the diasporans want to live in their virtual world of 100 yearold dead documents instead of participating in the only nation which is our only hope for a national future. You refuse to give up what was lost long ago at the expence of what could be and that is just god dam stupid!

[Gavur]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

O there is something taking place alright but it is exactly the opposit of what you think it is. See your thinking Serj and the hayastantsis are selling out our ancestral rights but in reality Armenia is being forced into a agreement it cannot refuse and one that is not all bad for it either. The realy bad part is that this is going to cause a rift between the diaspora and Armenia all because the diasporans want to live in their virtual world of 100 yearold dead documents instead of participating in the only nation which is our only hope for a national future. You refuse to give up what was lost long ago at the expence of what could be and that is just god dam stupid!

Hayk, but you realize you are parroting exactly what the Turks have been saying for the past 3 years.If this is what Sarkissian agrees with , maybe we're not being forced by the Russians only the bribing Turks.

[Davo88]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

See your thinking Serj and the hayastantsis

It's not Serge and the hayastantsis, it's Serge and his government. Hayastantsis aren't all supportive of the protocols, thankfully...

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

I do not see why Turkey would emphasise this much on accepting its territorial integrity through past treaties if our case for lost lands was as hopeless as some people claim they are. The Turk is not stupid, it has engaged in clever diplomacy for 600 years while we have succumbed time and time again to various empires.