Armenian-Turkish Relations

[gegev]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

They removed us form the list ....

Turks killed 1,500,000 Armenians to seize their land, home and property. Now ...

... they removed us from their list of state enemies..

they want to hit following two desired goals using the bullet above:

First: posing to the world like a good guy, at no expense to Turkey, as opposed to Armenia.

Secondly: after getting praised for this move by the world/superpowers and later on, by Armenian officials; who in advance had been “slightly urged” by US. Turks would be sure that “friendly" Armenia, doesn’t pose a threat to them, can’t demand retribution of their land, home and property above; because it "violates" Turkey’s “territorial integrity” and it would contradict “good will” act the Armenian side praised, too.

I’m sure, our FM Edvard Nal-bandyan wouldn’t notice/predict and criticize the trap above; to comply with the dictate and praise Turkey.

Turkey can look like a good guy only after accepting AG.
In this case it looks like a cheap guy.

with it's cheap lie.

[londontsi]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkey is saying Armenia is not a threat to us.

What they are not saying, we are not a threat to Armenia.


.

[gegev]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Turkey is saying Armenia is not a threat to us.
What they are not saying, we are not a threat to Armenia.
.

Removing us from the list; Turkey says: Armenians are not intended (or don't dare) to take back their 1,500,000 brothers/sisters land/home/property, that we killed. If so ... Armenia is not a threat to Turkey.

[ninetoyadome]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Vakıflı: the sole Armenian village outside of Armenia
28 November 2010, Sunday / SEVİM ŞENTÜRK , Antakya Today’s Zaman


The city of Antakya, where for thousands of years Sunnis, Alevis, Arabs, Orthodox Christians, xxxs and Turks lived in peace, also boasts another group of people: Armenians.

In fact, the Armenians here even have their own village, which lies under shadows cast by trees hundreds of years old and was founded on the slopes of Musa Mountain. It is a tiny, clean and neat village. The village is called Vakıflı, and it is one of 35 villages connected to the district of Samandağ in Hatay province.

The history of this village stretches far back. According to sources, it has a history of around 1,800-1,900 years. The architecture of Vakıflı reflects the culture and the beliefs of those who have lived here for so long. For example, there is the Vakıflı village church, left over from the 19th century and restored in 1997. The cemetery that sits at one end of the village is where Armenians have been buried for hundreds of years. We head into the garden behind the church to relax as we are walking around the village, and we encounter villager Kuhar Hanım, who says to us, “Let us ask you before you can ask us, ‘In coming to this village, where did you come from?’” In asking this, she underscores that she has lived in Vakıflı since birth and has never lived anywhere else. We are accompanied on our tour of this village by headman Berç Kartun, who tells us a bit about the population of Vakıflı.

In the 1940s, the village of Vakıflı had the largest population in the region. But along with the rush to emigrate to Europe that began in the 1960s, the population of the little village dropped sharply. And then, of course, there were all those who went off in search of an education in Turkey’s larger cities. The population of Vakıflı had dropped to around 300 by 1964, and nowadays it is much lower even, at around 70-80. Most of those left living in Vakıflı are over the age of 60. There are around 17-18 children who live here. Interestingly, the total number of people who are officially registered as coming from Vakıflı -- including those who live in Europe, or in İstanbul -- is 2,000. Those who now live far from Vakıflı make it a point to visit their home village, especially during holidays. For example, there is the Feast of the Assumption, which takes place on the second Sunday of every August, and this brings back Vakıflı villagers from all over the place. On days like the Feast of the Assumption, the population of Vakıflı swells to 1,000. Also, there are the Vakıflı Armenians who return to their home village for their annual vacations. One of these is Ohannes Silahlı, who lives right across from the church. He himself is a financial consultant and works in İskenderun. He comes to Vakıflı every two weeks to visit his mother and sometimes chooses to spend his weekends here. Another example of this sort of arrangement is retired teacher Canik Çapar, who along with his family was forced to emigrate to Germany but still returns every spring with his family to vacation here.



Vakıflı does not have many people. Most of its original residents moved to big cities, some in search of jobs, other pursuing an education. Those who remain in Vakıflı work in organic agriculture.

Vakıflı: the last Armenian village

The true significance of Vakıflı lies neither in its original architectural nor in its history, but in the fact that it is the only Armenian village that exists outside of Armenia. This is the only village left that has been inhabited from the very beginning by Armenians and where the order of life has not really changed all that much since. Actually, until 1938, there were six Armenian villages that were strung around Musa Mountain in this region, keeping Vakıflı company. However, turmoil in the years following the end of World War I, as well as the turning over of Hatay (which had been under French occupation) to the Turkish Republic, prompted many of the local Armenians to leave. In the end, most of the people living in the other five Armenian villages near Vakıflı decided to move to Syria, where they began new lives.

During these turbulent times, most of the people of Vakıflı decided to become citizens of the Turkish Republic. There were, of course, those who left Turkey, too. In fact, every family connected to the village has at least one relative or friend who left Turkey. The ones who stayed in Vakıflı were the ones who could not bear to leave the lands where they had lived for so long. One of these people is 78-year-old Aracsi Teyze, to whose home we were invited for evening tea. She was separated from her mother and father when she was just 6 years old, as she did not want to leave the village with them, despite her very young age. Her mother and father wound up leaving her under the care of an uncle who had no children of his own. For years and years, Aracsi never saw her mother or father.

We ask one of the oldest residents of Vakıflı, Avadis Demirci, what reasons the villagers who stayed had for not leaving, as so many other Armenians in the region did.

Demirci was born in 1914 and is the father of five. Despite his age, he is dynamic both in his attentiveness and his responses to our questions. “Atatürk was a real man. He said ‘Peace at home, peace in the world.’ We believed these words, and believed that we could live happily and peacefully in Turkey. … And, thus, we decided not to leave the land of our forefathers,” he says. Interestingly, he notes that those who wound up going are now regretting the decisions they made at that time. “Those who left these lands come back now and look around. And I say to them: ‘What, you think your house would be left? You should have taken your homes with you when you departed’.”

Of course, a certain level of trust in the state was not the only reason the villagers of Vakıflı decided to stay. They are tied to this land. They love it dearly and cannot imagine living anywhere else. As mother of three, Kuhar (whom we mentioned at the start of this article) puts it: “We do what we can to see that our children stay here because there is nowhere else in the world like here.” So saying, she summarizes the real reasons for local residents not wanting to leave Vakıflı.

This being the sole and last Armenian village in Turkey, it is impossible to avoid discussing some of the problems faced by Armenians in Turkey. The first Vakıflı resident we talked with about this topic with was Ohannes Silahlı. Ohannes attended the Armenian School in İstanbul during his high school years and studied alongside Hrant Dink. After high school, he moved from İstanbul back to the Hatay area and then moved to İskenderun, where he began working. We ask him whether he had any problems finding a job. He says: “On the contrary, my being Armenian actually made finding a job easier. People have the preconception that Armenians are dependable and honest people. So for this reason, wherever I went, I was able to get what I wanted done.” Of course, there are some examples that counter this. For example, Canik experienced many difficulties obtaining a job due to being Armenian. In fact, as a result of some of his experiences, he decided to renounce his citizenship, becoming German instead. Now he lives with his wife in Germany. As for the village elder Avadis, he asserts that the problems faced by ethnic minorities never come from everyday citizens of the nation but rather from the leaders. He says: “We live all together in Antakya, whether Alevi, Sunni or Arab. We know each others’ languages, respect each others’ religions and celebrate each others’ holidays all together.”

Village marriages

The people of Vakıflı have always married within the village. Here is how Ohannes described the situation: “In the Armenian community, marriages need to be normally between two people who are at least seven degrees removed in relation from one another. But we have broken this rule a bit. In fact, we have always decided to ‘give away our girls’ within the village itself, so that we have fewer problems and misunderstandings.” We ask whether it was always like that, inquiring whether they never married outside the village in Vakıflı. He responds: “Of course. In fact, Kuhar Hanım’s sister-in-law is a Muslim Alevi named Ayşe. And there is a man named Agop related to the village headman whose wife is Turkish. And then there is uncle Avadis, whose son, painter Artin Demirci, is married to a Muslim. These people all love this village, and all return here.” As for Avadis Bey, he sums it up by saying, “Once someone loves someone else, there’s no way you can stop them.”

Organic agriculture

In touching on the general atmosphere of Vakıflı, you can’t skip over another factor that generally distinguishes this village: It is Turkey’s only village officially certified to do organic farming. Vakıflı boasts citrus fields where no chemicals are used to grow the crops. It seems there is no one in the village not engaged in some form of organic farming. Everywhere you look, you see oranges, mandarin oranges and different kinds of citrus fruit. Every home we visit wants to share some of their fruit with us. In fact, the village of Vakıflı has won prizes from both the Turkish National Olympiad Committee (TMOK) and the Turkish Exporters Assembly (TİM) on this matter. A total of 650 acres of village land are used for organic farming. In 2004, the village earned 1 million euros in export profits. But now, business is not as good as it used to be since they are having some troubles finding middlemen to sell their goods. When they do find sellers, the prices are too low.

[Davo88]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

It is not true that Vakifli is the only Armenian village outside of Armenia... Anjar and Kessab are also Armenian villages in Lebanon and Syria respectively, but I suppose the author would rather ignore their existence. And why isn't the Armenian genocide mentioned in this article, or the battle of Musa Ler, or the fact that there were countless Armenian towns before 1915? A weak article to say the least.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

It is not true that Vakifli is the only Armenian village outside of Armenia... Anjar and Kessab are also Armenian villages in Lebanon and Syria respectively, but I suppose the author would rather ignore their existence. And why isn't the Armenian genocide mentioned in this article, or the battle of Musa Ler, or the fact that there were countless Armenian towns before 1915? A weak article to say the least.

Kessab is now mostly Muslim Arab, and many of its Armenian inhabitants have sold up and left. The cultivated fields are becoming abandoned and left to go to ruin, and in the 1990s much of the forests were deliberately burnt by property developers. A lot of of the problem derives from the fact that Kessab lost most of its best agricultural lands in 1939 (they are now inside Turkey) and much land along the border is unusable because of Turkish aggression.

[Federate]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Aliyev’s true colors

US State Department documents shared with the public by WikiLeaks on Sunday are sure to grab the spotlight for quite some time.


The documents we’ve seen so far are similar to regular gossip news; they’ll create a level of irritation with the addressees alright, but won’t lead to a crisis.

Evaluations on Muammar al-Gaddafi’s girlfriend and Silvio Berlusconi-Vladimir Putin relations won’t lead to any trouble. However, the US State Department’s request that US diplomats gather the credit card numbers and even DNA of political leaders whose countries they are in will cause a great deal of problems -- first and foremost regarding the status of the diplomats.

This information begs the justified question of whether these individuals are actually conducting diplomatic relations or spying. This is the reason behind the rushed US statement on Sunday night, noting that their diplomats conduct work in their own fields and do not go outside of this realm. The correspondence in question is of the kind that will put the diplomats in troubled situations in the countries where they are stationed. In this case, politicians will have to be very mindful of every step they take: drinking water, using the washroom and throwing paper napkins they use into trash bins. The US administration will have to exert a great deal of effort to overcome this crisis. Another topic that is sure to be a source of trouble is North Korea, which has been cast into the international agenda with winds of war. The documents are enough to instill fear in both North Korea and China because they only confirm North Korea’s fear of being annihilated. And it gives China the options of either a united Korea or US bases on Chinese land.

As for Turkey…

Ankara’s real disappointment must not be evaluations of Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu or the prime minister’s advisors, but the stance of Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev.

Aliyev’s stance on Turkey is taken from actual discussions that were held with him directly. Aliyev notes that he dislikes Erdoğan and the Justice and Development Party (AK Party) government. This is his most natural right. But he later notes that they are opposed to Turkey being an energy center; meaning, they don’t want Turkey to gain power. This Turkey they speak of closed its doors to Armenia without any expectations in return. A recent historic opportunity for peace with Armenia came and was in line with Turkey’s “zero problem with neighbors” policy. Turkey, once again, took a step back for Azerbaijan’s sake and did not fulfill its promise to Armenia, citing a series of weak excuses.

When this agreement was in the spotlight, it was Aliyev who had the biggest problem with it. So much so that he had a group of deputies sent to Turkey in order to spread anti-government propaganda.

And Erdoğan, going to Baku for energy-related reasons, had promised that until the Nagorno-Karabakh problem is solved, the border would not be opened.

It has now become apparent that regardless of what Turkey does, the Azerbaijani administration will be an opposition on the matter of energy.

This would also be the case if Ankara were not to recognize Armenia’s existence. So why is Ankara maintaining this attitude, which places itself in a troubled spot on the international platform, for a dictator who has swindled it, forcing a people to live under difficult circumstances?

Aliyev has clearly stated to the US administration that he is opposed to the role Turkey has taken on in the region.

This is not an attitude befitting a brother and friend of a country. It’s a hypocritical stance, to say the least.

Turkey’s hand certainly does not deserve to be in such a helpless state against Azerbaijan.

The WikiLeaks documents have become documents that will ease Turkey’s stance where the Armenian issue is concerned.

Ankara must use this card well.

http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist-228270-aliyevs-true-colors.html

[Joseph]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Aliyev’s true colors

US State Department documents shared with the public by WikiLeaks on Sunday are sure to grab the spotlight for quite some time.


The documents we’ve seen so far are similar to regular gossip news; they’ll create a level of irritation with the addressees alright, but won’t lead to a crisis.

Evaluations on Muammar al-Gaddafi’s girlfriend and Silvio Berlusconi-Vladimir Putin relations won’t lead to any trouble. However, the US State Department’s request that US diplomats gather the credit card numbers and even DNA of political leaders whose countries they are in will cause a great deal of problems -- first and foremost regarding the status of the diplomats.

This information begs the justified question of whether these individuals are actually conducting diplomatic relations or spying. This is the reason behind the rushed US statement on Sunday night, noting that their diplomats conduct work in their own fields and do not go outside of this realm. The correspondence in question is of the kind that will put the diplomats in troubled situations in the countries where they are stationed. In this case, politicians will have to be very mindful of every step they take: drinking water, using the washroom and throwing paper napkins they use into trash bins. The US administration will have to exert a great deal of effort to overcome this crisis. Another topic that is sure to be a source of trouble is North Korea, which has been cast into the international agenda with winds of war. The documents are enough to instill fear in both North Korea and China because they only confirm North Korea’s fear of being annihilated. And it gives China the options of either a united Korea or US bases on Chinese land.

As for Turkey…

Ankara’s real disappointment must not be evaluations of Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoğlu or the prime minister’s advisors, but the stance of Azerbaijani President Ilham Aliyev.

Aliyev’s stance on Turkey is taken from actual discussions that were held with him directly. Aliyev notes that he dislikes Erdoğan and the Justice and Development Party (AK Party) government. This is his most natural right. But he later notes that they are opposed to Turkey being an energy center; meaning, they don’t want Turkey to gain power. This Turkey they speak of closed its doors to Armenia without any expectations in return. A recent historic opportunity for peace with Armenia came and was in line with Turkey’s “zero problem with neighbors” policy. Turkey, once again, took a step back for Azerbaijan’s sake and did not fulfill its promise to Armenia, citing a series of weak excuses.

When this agreement was in the spotlight, it was Aliyev who had the biggest problem with it. So much so that he had a group of deputies sent to Turkey in order to spread anti-government propaganda.

And Erdoğan, going to Baku for energy-related reasons, had promised that until the Nagorno-Karabakh problem is solved, the border would not be opened.

It has now become apparent that regardless of what Turkey does, the Azerbaijani administration will be an opposition on the matter of energy.

This would also be the case if Ankara were not to recognize Armenia’s existence. So why is Ankara maintaining this attitude, which places itself in a troubled spot on the international platform, for a dictator who has swindled it, forcing a people to live under difficult circumstances?

Aliyev has clearly stated to the US administration that he is opposed to the role Turkey has taken on in the region.

This is not an attitude befitting a brother and friend of a country. It’s a hypocritical stance, to say the least.

Turkey’s hand certainly does not deserve to be in such a helpless state against Azerbaijan.

The WikiLeaks documents have become documents that will ease Turkey’s stance where the Armenian issue is concerned.

Ankara must use this card well.

http://www.todayszaman.com/columnist...ue-colors.html

Let the Turkish reactions to Aliyev begin!

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

Armenia experiences difficulties with defective democracy, Davutoglu says




December 27, 2010 | 00:31
Turkish Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu presented the reporters the most significant foreign policy results during 2010. In this regard, he also recalled the Armenia-Turkey accords on normalization of relations, signed on October 10, Zurich.

According to him, Turkey’s relations with Armenia will not return to the initial point, which was before the documents’ signing, Zaman daily reports.

The main thing is not to open the border but be able to keep it open. This is possible only if the tension between Armenia and Azerbaijan eases. We face difficulties with democratization, whereas Armenia experiences difficulties with defective democracy, Davutoglu said. He expressed confidence Armenia stepped back from the documents.


News from Armenia - NEWS.am


Armenian foreign minister has to answer him and show to the world what kind of hypocrite Davutoglu is .

[gegev]

Re: Armenian-Turkish Relations

A typical dialouge a typicalArmenian will have with a typical Turk:

A Turk is going to start by asking: What is the problem with your people regarding us Turks?

An Armenian is going to say: Turks persecuted their loyal Armenian subjects to the point of extinction within Anatolia.

The Turk is going to reply: No way, your people had a great life living under the progressive Ottoman Turks.

The Armenian is going to respond: There was a systematic genocide of the Armenian population within Anatolia and Cilicia by the Turkish authorities during the First World War.

The Turk is going to reply: There was a major war at the time and many people died on both sides. Turks suffered just as much as Armenians. So please, let's all move ahead in our lives. Besides which, that was so long ago...

The Armenian is going to respond: No. No. No. You are not being fair nor honest, a lot more Armenians died. What happened to Armenians back then was absolutely horrible, my grandparents still talk about it to this day.

The Turk is going to reply: Well, if Turks overreacted at the time, it's only because you Armenians were helping the Russians and stabbing us, benevolent Turks, in the back.

The Armenian is going to respond: Not all Armenians were helping the Russians, only a few nationalist revolutionaries who were seeking independence. Why did Turks kill or deport the entire Armenian population of Anatolia and Cilicia?

The Turk is going to reply: Well, you know what, I was not there. I don’t know what exactly happened. In any case, please allow me to say - I am very sorry all that stuff happened to your people. I am really-really sorry, but we Turks are different now, times are different now, let's move ahead in our lives, it will benefit us all.

The Armenian is going to respond: Yes, let's move ahead, but, it is essential that your government officially apologizes and begins to implement friendly policies toward the Armenian nation. Also, why is your government openly helping the Azeris against us? That problem in Nagorno Karabagh should have nothing to do with Armenia's relations with Turkey.

The Turk is going to reply: As far as the Nagorno Karabagh issue is concerned, we support the territorial integrity of all nations, including that of our cousins, the Azeris. Clearly, you Armenians are the aggressors there. However, I do not want to talk about that problem right now. Let's get back to 'our' issue. Turks will not officially apologize because they are afraid of land and money compensations. You have to understand that Turkey is not a rich nation and we are not about to butcher up our lands.

At this point, there are some Armenian low-lives who would reply: Very well, but please, even if it's some kind of a token recognition and compensation, it needs to be made in order to appease the masses who are still suffering from a post-traumatic conditions brought upon by the genocide.

And at this point, the Turk will get encouraged by the Armenian response and say: My government has similar problem with the Kurds and the Greek, thus, no such compensation can be acceptable for us Turks. Please people, accept our sincere apologies and lets move a head in life, we don't have another choice.

The same Armenian low-lives will respond: Well, ok, as long as we can be "good neighbors" and have no more problems, we will accept your apology and we'll live happily ever after.

And at this point, Armenian nationalists will tell Turks: Go to hell, you and your Azeri cousins, we will not rest until your nation is destroyed. After what happened between our nations, Turks and Armenians can never again live side-by-side. What's more, as long as the Turkish government holds our sacred lands, as long as the Turkish government supports our enemies, as long as the blood of our ancestors are not avenged somehow - there cannot even be any discussions regarding 'coexistence' between Turks and Armenians.

The point is, discussions about the Armenian Genocide with Turks are senseless exercises in futility. Such debates, more often than not, degenerate to the point that it only serves to undermine the national ideology and cohesiveness of us Armenians. Nevertheless, the fundamental answer of all self-respecting Armenians to every single Turkic inquiry regarding Turko-Armenian relations is a simple one: There was a historic crime perpetrated by Turks against the Armenian people that yet needs to be punished.

All crimes, regardless of severity, needs to get punished accordingly. That is how the universal order works, that is how rational works, that is how human behavior works. Through my experiences, I have noticed that there are two fundamental types of Turks regarding their ideological approach to the Armenian Genocide. The first type (most probably the majority): Is very satisfied with what happened to the Armenians during the First World War and, moreover, would not hesitate one bit at attempting it again (as we have seen on countless occasions during the past fifteen years). The other type (who is essentially subservient to the first type): Just wants to "whitewash" and make "excuses" for what happened back then and wants us to move "forward."

I far as I am concerned, its simple folks: We move forward by punishing, sooner or later, the guilty nation that committed the barbaric crime - and this cannot happen by trying to "reconcile" with those who still wish us dead. Speak to me about "reconciliation" with Turks when the Turkish state is reduced to rubble - then and only then will I even consider reconciliation with a Turk.

As I keep repeating: "well meaning" Turks need to preach to their primitive brethren - NOT US. I, personally, do not want engage in futile practices such as "explaining" and "convincing" anything to any moron that does not know the obvious. The bottom line is: just a few decades ago there was a large Armenian population living within its native lands and, today - there are none. Its that simple. Therefore, I do not want to engage in verbal gymnastics by discussing "why did it happen," "how did it happen," "what was the exact number of dead," "who was responsible," "how do we move forward..."

You are absolutely right!
Nobody knows any criminal that killed people to occupy/own their home, land and other property and who confessed the crime, was willing to return it, and ready to be sentenced.

This case can be solved only by an international court. That kind of criminal - Turkey is; would never confess.