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Re: Armenian Georgian Relations
Do you guys think Russia would peacefully allow for such a thing?
Do you guys think Russia would peacefully allow for such a thing?
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Re: Armenian Georgian Relations
I think Russia has big plans for Georgia.Originally posted by jgk3 View Post
General Antranik (1865-1927): “I am not a nationalist. I recognize only one nation, the nation of the oppressed.”Comment
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Re: Armenian Georgian Relations
Georgia attempts to expel Armenians from Kvemo Kartli region
29.08.2009 13:54 GMT+04:00 Print version Send to mail
/PanARMENIAN.Net/ Following active protests and statements regarding Georgian authorities’ anti-Armenian policy in northern Lori (Kvemo Kartli), particularly waterline cutoff in Armenian village Damya, we observe certain progress, Edward Abramyan, expert at Mitk analytical centre, told a PanARMENIAN.Net reporter. To prevent conflicts between Armenian and Georgians residing in villages, officials from Marneul region are carrying out visits to the region to understand the causes of waterline cutoff.
“Despite such spontaneous interest, Georgia does not pursue positive plans in the long-run. Particularly, under Tbilisi’s direct instruction, several Georgian marionettes with Azerbaijani origins attempt to incite tension between local Armenians and Azeris so as to distract both nations’ attention from Georgia’s on-going anti-Armenian and anti-Azerbaijani policy. In that regard, we attach more importance not only to the Armenian public-political organizations’ visits to inhabited areas but also the voiced questions regarding Armenian frontier villages of Kvemo Kartli. In the meantime, we add that some Azeri marionettes like Abiala Askerov, leader of Azeris’ Popular Movement in Georgia, has already flooded Azerbaijani press with anti-Armenian statements,” expert stressed.
Askerov reported to Azerbaijan’s Trend News agency that several water reservoirs were constructed by the assistance of donor organizations. “On behalf the region’s Armenian population, I’d like to ask Mr. Askerov’s where those facilities are. Besides, I don’t understand why Azeri media have not so far published their corrupt activist’s statement in that regard. Alibalah Askerov is known to have actively supported Georgia in populating Kvemo Kartli with Georgians. In the 1990s, Askerov had relationship ties with Head of National Security Service in Kazakh region, Azerbaijan. He and Askerov were actively engaged in arms trade. They sold arms and armament to Armenians, namely, ‘Armenian National Army’ which used to fight for Karabakh’s freedom and independence. Besides, Askerov has his arms blood-stained up to the elbows. Receiving his Georgian bosses’ approval, he ordered the murder of 6 Armenian activists who were set on fire in a car near the Azerbaijani village of Saral. This was followed by the arrest of Smbat Urumyan, Head of ‘Armenian National Army’s’ regional organization, who wanted to take revenge for such heinous crime. However, considering several factors, organization’s leadership closed eyes to all that. Hence, Alibala Askerov owes much to Armenian side for its tolerance.”
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Re: Armenian Georgian Relations
Ամօթ Հայաստանի կառավարութեան որ ոչ մի բողոք չի ուղղարկում Վրաստանի կառավարութեան. ընդհակարակը շքանշան կու տայ Միխայիլ Սաակաշվիլիին երբ նոյն ժամանակ մեր հայկական եկեղեցիները կամ քանդւում են կամ ել վրացները կը «վրացնեն»։
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Dome of 14th Century Armenian Church in Tbilisi Comes Crashing Down
[ 2009/11/19 | 17:23 ] important diaspora
Kristine Aghalaryan
Today, at approximately 4 am, the cupola of the 14th century Saint Gevork Armenian Church in Tbilisi came crashing down. Saint Gevork was a working church up till the 1930’s and was used as a supply depot for the Georgian National Museum till the early 1990’s. Due to its precarious condition, the church stopped being used for any purpose.
St. Gevork is one of the six Armenian churches in Georgia whose legal title is still in question and has not been returned to the jurisdiction of the Armenian Diocese.
Mikayel Avagyan, Assistant to the Armenian Primate of Georgia, told “Hetq” that church officials have visited the accident site and have informed the Mother See of Etchmiadzin of the situation. Mr. Avagyan said that the large dome came crashing down into the church’s interior section.
“Hetq” tried to contact the Mother See for further details but no one answered the phone at the press office.
In a statement issued by the Armenian Diocese of Georgia, responsibility for the accident is laid at the feet of the Georgian Ministry for Culture and Monuments Preservation, arguing that the church fell under its jurisdiction.
“All this leaves the impression that the Primate of Georgia and the Georgian government, not resolving the return of the churches to us and not paying attention to their preservation, have set about to purposefully destroy our important cultural monuments,” reads the statement of the Armenian Diocese.
Last edited by Federate; 11-19-2009, 11:33 AM.Azerbaboon: 9.000 Google hits and counting!Comment
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Re: Armenian Georgian Relations
In light of the utterly chauvinistic policies of Georgians I do see a clash upcoming (sadly) and be sure to see Armenians fight just as hard for defense of Armenians in historic Armenian provinces and elsewhere as we did in Artsakh. I am not advocating war, but I have only seen anti-Armenian hostility on part of the Georgian government.
Georgian "gratitude" (like denying Mesrop Mashtots' role in creation of the alphabet, denying the Armenian roots of the Bagratid family that ruled Georgia for millennium, denying Armenian role in building up Tpghis-Tiflis-Tbilisi, and numerous cultural inputs into development of Georgian culture etc.) is nothing new.Last edited by Catharsis; 11-20-2009, 03:15 AM.Comment
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Re: Armenian Georgian Relations
Well I think we should all hope a conflict doesn't arise. If it does, Azerbaijan will surely take the opprtunity and join in, with Armenia now at war with the nation that once gave it access to the Sea, I really don't see it being able to pull a 1 vs. 2.Originally posted by Catharsis View Post
About the Church, even though it is a historic structure and it's of course always nice to preserve such things, I really don't feel too much about it, what's really annoying is the treatment and obvious message of the Georgians towards Armenians.Last edited by Muhaha; 11-20-2009, 12:18 AM.Comment
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Re: Armenian Georgian Relations
I agree with you Muhaha. We are not looking for a conflict or a 'second front' if you will along with an excuse to label Armenia as an aggressor nation in the region. Having said that we will not sit idly by if discrimination of Armenians turns into open hostilities. In the meanwhile we must raise the issue of Armenian political prisoners in Georgia (like Vahagn Chakhalyan) who have been falsely accused and imprisoned for standing up for Armenian rights in Javakhk and throughout Georgia.Originally posted by Muhaha View Post
By the way, there is no "hatred of Georgia or Georgians" on my part, far from it, we are not the ones who are creating these problems and tensions. However as I noted, we will not permit this awful treatment of Armenian population and Armenian culture to escalate to a level that their very existence will be undermined.Last edited by Catharsis; 11-20-2009, 03:14 AM.Comment
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Re: Armenian Georgian Relations
In case of war I would expect Russia, if not directly then via Abkhazia & S. Ossetia to join in against georgia. If Russia can't control georgia than the second best option is the elimination of georgia from the south caucasus. Also, I am not sure if georgia would be able to overtake Javakhti Armenian forces if the latter was able to establish control over the region, not to mention actual Armenian Army. There is a lot of things that can play out but one thing that seems clear is that the georgian government did not learn its lesson from August 2008. They are just as chauvinistic as ever.For the first time in more than 600 years, Armenia is free and independent, and we are therefore obligated
to place our national interests ahead of our personal gains or aspirations.
http://www.armenianhighland.com/main.htmlComment
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Re: Armenian Georgian Relations
Samvel Karapetyan – “We mourn the fact that the Saint Gevorg of Mughni Church in Tbilisi has collapsed. But what about the fate of St. Nishan’s, just 100 meters way?
[ 2009/11/23 | 18:25 ] Feature Stories interview culture
Sona Avagyan
The Saint Gevorg of Mughni Armenian Church in Tbilisi had a height of some 35 meters and an attractive design, especially on the eastern exterior façade where there were depictions of the benefactors and main altar. There were only two churches with a similar footprint in all of Georgia. The other is St. Mesrop Church in the Shahumyan (formerly Metz Shulaver) settlement in the Marneuli region.
On November 19, the dome of St Gevorg’s came crashing down and the church collapsed. Samvel Karapetyan, who heads the Armenian Architectural Research NGO spoke to “Hetq” about the incident and its significance.
Did St. Gevorg’s collapse due to the fact that it was no longer structurally sound?
Yes, the church structure was unsafe. But this was a result of many decades of neglect. It was Georgia that saw to it that the church deteriorated to the point of collapse. That’s to say, the lead up to the collapse was the result of a specific policy.
Normally, if a structure that possesses some historical value is on the verge of collapse, immediate measures are taken to fortify and secure the building. For example take our churches at Ani that aren’t on the verge of collapsing, some that have only one or two loose stones. The Turks have set up support beams and braces. The same should have been done in the case of St. Gevorg in order to fortify the structure, despite being unsound. The Georgian government can now state ‘we don’t have the requisite funds’, but structural fortifications could have been placed at fairly low cost.
Did anyone raise this concern with the Georgian government? That the church was prone to collapse without necessary renovations?
I know that in 1990, at the end of the Soviet regime, Armenia’s Department of Monuments’ Preservation raised the issue, but I have no knowledge if the issue was raised since then, in the past twenty years. I would assume that it wasn’t.
Wasn’t St. Gevorg’s an Armenian church that had been Georgianized?
No, it hadn’t been subjected to this process. The Georgians were well aware of the church’s poor structural condition and that it would eventually collapse in a few years anyway. That’s why they left it alone. Had it been co-opted, the Georgians would need to have spent huge amounts to repair and renovate the church. In addition, St. Gevorg’s of Mughni, is a church that has played a prominent role on the life of the Armenian community of Tbilisi. Had the Georgians sought to co-opt the church, it would have created a great deal of commotion. Thus, they decided that it would be more convenient for them in the long-run to keep the church in a state of disrepair and wait for its eventual collapse.
During the years 1988-1989, the church served as the Folk Arts Museum. There were various exhibits displayed inside. In 1989, the museum moved and so did all the items on display. At the time, the walls were already showing hairline cracks. I had occasion to visit the church last year. The cracks had grown so large that one could pass through the walls and enter the church. In the twenty years since 1989, one can honestly state that the church’s eventual collapse was the result of official design.
In your estimation, does it now even make sense to talk about the rebuilding of St. Gevorg’s?
Believe me, restoration of the church is a moot point. First of all, the church was a brick structure and when such a church collapses all that’s left is a pile of useless rubble. The same fate befell the Shamkoretsots Karmir Avetaran Church in Havlabar (an historic Armenian neighborhood in Tbilisi) that was blown up in April, 1989. It too was beyond rebuilding since it was a brick structure as well and had been transformed to a heap of rubble. I am convinced that we have lost St. Gevorg of Mughni forever. We didn’t raise the issue of the blowing-up of the Karmir Avetaran Church and now, this church, collapsed on its own. Back then, the Armenian community proposed to the government that they be allowed to pay for the renovation of Shamkoretsots. They not only refused the request but blew-up the church as well.
I can’t say if the Armenian community made a similar request to the government regarding St. Gevorg’s. My guess is that they haven’t. Why? Just take a look at the condition of St Nishan’s. We have about 80,000-100,000 Armenians in Tbilisi alone and many more throughout all of Georgia. Several years ago the church was set ablaze. It still stands but after the fire it’s become deserted; a semi-ruined structure that is now used as a public toilet. And this is sacrilege is happening before the eyes of the Armenian community in Tbilisi.
St Gevorg’s and St. Nishan’s are in close proximity to one another; separated by a mere 100 meters or so. One has collapsed due to years of neglect and we have no knowledge of any official petition by the community or the Diocese (yes, we do have an official Church See there) to the Georgian authorities expressing the desire or will to renovate it. This is also true for St. Nishan’s. Today we mourn the loss of St. Gevorg’s but what about the condition of St. Nishan’s, a church that still stands? Does it await the same fate?
Azerbaboon: 9.000 Google hits and counting!Comment
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Re: Armenian Georgian Relations
I have to admit that is pretty sickening, it is likely that all the Armenian churches in Georgia will suffer the same fate, the other Christian faiths stay silent....wonder why? But I would say this is more as a result of the Azeri's taking a dangerous hold over Georgia.Comment
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