Armenian Georgian Relations

[Mos]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Most of the lands that we have a claim to are in Eastern Turkey, only a very small portion is in Georgia. Plus, why the hell would anyone want to make Georgia an enemy? We don't have enough enemies in the region? You just want to totally block Armenia from the rest of the world?

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Looks like a coastline to me...

Ok and now tell me how are we ever going to get that? No one is going to give us that, it's time for people to realise if we want something we have to grab it.

Most of the lands that we have a claim to are in Eastern Turkey, only a very small portion is in Georgia. Plus, why the hell would anyone want to make Georgia an enemy? We don't have enough enemies in the region? You just want to totally block Armenia from the rest of the world?

Everyone is our enemy, Georgia is in bed with our enemies. They are screwing with the Armenians living there. How long till there are no Armenians living there? Maybe in 5 years they will decide to go the same way the Azeris went in the end of the 80's and get rid of the Armenians.

Tell me from all our neighboring countries who isn't our enemy, please tell me? Because I can think of one that isn't. And haven't you realized that the world love the strong and hate the weak. Look at Israel it can do what ever it wants and no one dares to touch them, even without US support I wouldn't see any power going against Israel.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Ok and now tell me how are we ever going to get that? No one is going to give us that, it's time for people to realise if we want something we have to grab it.

Everyone is our enemy, Georgia is in bed with our enemies. They are screwing with the Armenians living there. How long till there are no Armenians living there? Maybe in 5 years they will decide to go the same way the Azeris went in the end of the 80's and get rid of the Armenians.

Tell me from all our neighboring countries who isn't our enemy, please tell me? Because I can think of one that isn't. And haven't you realized that the world love the strong and hate the weak. Look at Israel it can do what ever it wants and no one dares to touch them, even without US support I wouldn't see any power going against Israel.

If the U.S. (rather the Israeli lobby that has lived in the U.S. for hundreds of years), U.K. and France didn't support Israel, they wouldn't have a chance in hell to survive in the Middle East.

As U.S.'s power diminishes you will see more revolutions like the one that's going on in Tunisia and Egypt. The people of these countries are tired of living under dictatorships imposed on them by western governments and I think there are also backdoor contracts that we never hear of that are coming to an end. These also happen to be lands formerly ruled by the Ottomans. Turkey would not be able to protect all the land it has if it wasn't for military support from the west. If a legal peace treaty like Sevres can't be held up by the powers that drew it up, it is up to Armenians to point out their hypocrisy and use it as leverage.

I can also guarantee you that Georgia has elements that are working for the interest of Israel.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

If the U.S. (rather the Israeli lobby that has lived in the U.S. for hundreds of years), U.K. and France didn't support Israel, they wouldn't have a chance in hell to survive in the Middle East.

As U.S.'s power diminishes you will see more revolutions like the one that's going on in Tunisia and Egypt. The people of these countries are tired of living under dictatorships imposed on them by western governments and I think there are also backdoor contracts that we never hear of that are coming to an end. These also happen to be lands formerly ruled by the Ottomans. Turkey would not be able to protect all the land it has if it wasn't for military support from the west. If a legal peace treaty like Sevres can't be held up by the powers that drew it up, it is up to Armenians to point out their hypocrisy and use it as leverage.

I can also guarantee you that Georgia has elements that are working for the interest of Israel.

I'm talking about today, Israel can survive without US support because non of it's neighbors have the power needed to attack them and destroy them. At the Levant they are the ones that have the power, if they want they can do whatever they want. Now the question is, why is the West supporting them? Because it would be foolish not to support them.

Now as Armenians we must make the world support us because doing so will gain them much more than not doing so.

And for the time being the US is still the major power and will be that for the first part of the century after that it could be that China, Indai or Russia takes it's place or we get a world like in the 19th century with many major powers, but for the time being US has still more power than every other nation.

I'm not waiting for the powers of the world to return us our lands, neither should any other Armenian. We should work towards that goal on our own and use any means necessary.
Right now I'm reading the Armenian Golgotha, the memories of Grigoris Balakian, there you see majority of Armenians till the end having faith in the Ottoman government to stop it and save them. You read how rich and powerful Armenians being naive and believing that Talat, friend of Armenians (words from the book) would save them and stop the bloodshed.
I for one am sick of having trust in any government or institution to help us. Its time that we as a people help our selves.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Right now I'm reading the Armenian Golgotha, the memories of Grigoris Balakian, there you see majority of Armenians till the end having faith in the Ottoman government to stop it and save them. You read how rich and powerful Armenians being naive and believing that Talat, friend of Armenians (words from the book) would save them and stop the bloodshed.
I for one am sick of having trust in any government or institution to help us. Its time that we as a people help our selves.

I bought that book a while ago, haven't read it yet. I also believe that the rich and powerful Armenians were involved in selling us out but that's an entirely different topic. I agree that we have to help ourselves but it's also easier to use others to do your dirty work than doing it yourself. For example, Syria was supposed to have been given Sanjak province which is now Hatay in modern day Turkey. There are also the Kurds which are a huge rebel force inside Turkey. Creating more friction between these age old grievances is what politics is all about. Dividing and conquering is easier than conquering by force.

Georgia really can't do much for Armenia, it's best to just remain neutral and pretend to be friends.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

Ok and now tell me how are we ever going to get that? No one is going to give us that, it's time for people to realise if we want something we have to grab it.

Everyone is our enemy, Georgia is in bed with our enemies. They are screwing with the Armenians living there. How long till there are no Armenians living there? Maybe in 5 years they will decide to go the same way the Azeris went in the end of the 80's and get rid of the Armenians.

Tell me from all our neighboring countries who isn't our enemy, please tell me? Because I can think of one that isn't. And haven't you realized that the world love the strong and hate the weak. Look at Israel it can do what ever it wants and no one dares to touch them, even without US support I wouldn't see any power going against Israel.

You really have to get over the notion that in this world there are true "friends" between countries. The only thing that is close to a friendship is ethnic ties like between Turkey and Azerbaijan or Cyprus and Greece. Countries only care about their self-interests, you must understand that, and for their own gain they will do anything let it be supporting dictatorships or giving weapons to gain economically and politically. When it comes to things to offer, Armenia has very little. No ocean, no oil, few natural resources, so naturally not many countries are going to care about us. Azeris have oil, and for that they will be very popular, and Georgia has access to Black Sea and is a ideal transit country for gas piplelines to West.

Why is Russia good with us? It's not because they like us, or they like our culture, that is BS, it is because they can use us a strategic base militarily, and we are located in a crucial crossroad. If they can gain more by being good with our enemies they will sell us in a heartbeat, along with any alliance we ever be in.

So don't fall into the trap that countries have true "friends" or "allies", it's all an illusion, every country is just focused on its self gain and will ally itself with whatever country to get ahead, it's as simple as that. Alliances are also dynamic, long time allies can turn into staunch foes in a heartbeat.

[levon]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

What you are talking about will put limitation on us, that is something we don't need. We will take what ever we want and what ever our power can give us.
Like for example we want a coast line we will take it and not care if it belonged to us or not. That is Armenian imperialism.

Word up!

[levon]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

For example, Syria was supposed to have been given Sanjak province which is now Hatay in modern day Turkey. There are also the Kurds which are a huge rebel force inside Turkey. Creating more friction between these age old grievances is what politics is all about. Dividing and conquering is easier than conquering by force.

I think there are already many outside forces that wish for more tensions to originate from the Kurds. If in addition to that, we aid in the introduction of liberal values that will destroy Turkish identity and wussify the average Turk, our troubles will ease. I think that's already on the way as well.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

I bought that book a while ago, haven't read it yet. I also believe that the rich and powerful Armenians were involved in selling us out but that's an entirely different topic. I agree that we have to help ourselves but it's also easier to use others to do your dirty work than doing it yourself. For example, Syria was supposed to have been given Sanjak province which is now Hatay in modern day Turkey. There are also the Kurds which are a huge rebel force inside Turkey. Creating more friction between these age old grievances is what politics is all about. Dividing and conquering is easier than conquering by force.

Georgia really can't do much for Armenia, it's best to just remain neutral and pretend to be friends.

You should read it, the book gives an insight to what happened from the position of one of the leaders of the Armenian nation. About Armenians being involved in the genocide I got one thing to say, the 250 people that were arrested on 24th of April the list with their names was made by an Armenian.

Yes that is also a part of what I'm saying, using other to do what you want, is also a part of imperialism. But when you say stop at some border, that is the point I say go to where ever we want once Armenia stretched all the way to Egyptian border so why not in 200 years?

You really have to get over the notion that in this world there are true "friends" between countries. The only thing that is close to a friendship is ethnic ties like between Turkey and Azerbaijan or Cyprus and Greece. Countries only care about their self-interests, you must understand that, and for their own gain they will do anything let it be supporting dictatorships or giving weapons to gain economically and politically. When it comes to things to offer, Armenia has very little. No ocean, no oil, few natural resources, so naturally not many countries are going to care about us. Azeris have oil, and for that they will be very popular, and Georgia has access to Black Sea and is a ideal transit country for gas piplelines to West.

Why is Russia good with us? It's not because they like us, or they like our culture, that is BS, it is because they can use us a strategic base militarily, and we are located in a crucial crossroad. If they can gain more by being good with our enemies they will sell us in a heartbeat, along with any alliance we ever be in.

So don't fall into the trap that countries have true "friends" or "allies", it's all an illusion, every country is just focused on its self gain and will ally itself with whatever country to get ahead, it's as simple as that. Alliances are also dynamic, long time allies can turn into staunch foes in a heartbeat.

I never thought there is friendship between two nations not even between Cyprus and Greece or Turkey and Azerbaijan, when time comes they will fight each other like every other nation.
That is what i've been saying all along that we should forget the notion of Georgians being our allies or anything else they are our next enemy. After the Artsakh war is finished our next war will be in Javakh.

[Mos]

Re: Armenian Georgian Relations

I never thought there is friendship between two nations not even between Cyprus and Greece or Turkey and Azerbaijan, when time comes they will fight each other like every other nation.
That is what i've been saying all along that we should forget the notion of Georgians being our allies or anything else they are our next enemy. After the Artsakh war is finished our next war will be in Javakh.

Starting another war? You don't understand how much Armenia needs stability right now, a war with Georgia would devastate us, and would devastate our infrastructure, economy, and in the end the people. We've barely gotten on our feet after the 90s, why the hell plunge Armenia into a repetition of dark years? Plus attacking Georgia will mean that we will be blocked on 3 fronts, so I have no idea how Armenia will survive like that, and who knows maybe Iran one day chooses to join their Muslim compatriots. This would be the worst thing for Armenia I don't understand how you can support creating a new conflict like that, after Karabakh is solved, let us improve our country, get rid of corruption, improve education, infrastructure. Let us make a better country and for once have some stability in this chaotic region.