Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

[axel]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

Siamanto:
If I try to recap some of your assumptions & arguments (as I understood them)

1. Lucin and Armenian are members of the ARF
2. the ARF associates with "fascists" (the "right" in your understanding) or with socialists ("the left") as it sees fit. This demonstrates its complete lack of intellectual integrity and its inherently opportunistic nature.
3. It so happens that the ARF did not express support for Nicolas Sarkozy. But ideologically speaking, it should have because it is in reality a reactionary / conservative movement (again in your view)
4. Lucin's stance in this thread is thus of partisan nature. If the ARF had ("logically") express support for Nicolas Sarkozy, she would have kept silent and not taken every single opportunity to blast Sarkozy.
From there, you infer that Lucin is a hypocrite (and quite possibly a "hooligan")
5. Lucin is not "perceptive", her thinking is binary (not to mention Reichsführer Armenian)




Whereas there could be validity to some of these points if Lucin was the average (bark-on-demand) french militant of the ARF, these appear to be utterly wrong.

my take on the above points.

1. Not obvious at first glance though Armenian seems kind of close to the "movement".

2. Contradicting currents (my previous point). Major cultural differences across countries (assimilation...)

3. In France, the ARF stands close to the socialist party (this is a fact) whereas the Ramgavar party is close to the UMP. The french ARF cannot by any standard be considered as a conservative movement (in any acceptation of the word). Neither Armenian nor Lucin (as I understand their worldview) may possibly associate with it as it is.

4. The pseudo-"right"/"left" cleavage seems to be your primary angle of analysis (in addition to your focalizing on the ARF). It is not relevant in the context of this discussion (neither is the ARF). As I see it, the cleavage here rather stands between partisans and opponents to the (US-led) unipolar world order.

It is crystal-clear to anyone who has read just a few posts by Armenian, skhara or even Lucin, that their political/geopolitical views are essentially shaped by hostility towards the "new world order" (this having little to do with the ARF, if at all).

5. This is a gratuitous statement as far as Lucin is concerned and, if true, would almost stand in contradiction with her being a "hypocrite".

As to Armenian... well, he seems to master the edit/delete function on this board. Already a good point. The rewrite of one of his not-so-well-inspired post in the Russia thread was quite in order. In addition, I must say his almost glorifying Tavarich Stalin (not sure this stands in line with the ARF's discourse btw) and illustrating Volodia's policies with soviet-era posters is not quite "perceptive". "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" seems to summarize his line of thinking on global/historical matters to such an extent that the propaganda of the "enemy" might very well determine his allegiances. On the other hand, he seems quite capable of critical thinking. So it's just a question of him not defining himself and his positions dialectically, in the terms set by the "enemy".


This discussion with you is closed as far as I am concerned.

[axel]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

One last thing...
The friend/foe distinction.
This is in line with the schmittian conception of politics, the ultimate enemy being that who threatens one's very form of existence.
It can be argued the western world order threatens armenian identity and is in contradiction with our ideals.
The criterion is thus not totally irrelevant.

[ARK]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

jurks are watching you. Shame on you all...

[Armenian]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

jurks are watching you. Shame on you all...

You are right. But tell me this: Was starting this topic a shame, or what some wanted to do with this topic? And no Turk or Jurk consideration is going to compete with the massive egos of some individuals around here.

[axel]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

what some wanted to do with this topic

allowing Ara Baliozian's writings to sound relevant (among other things)...

[Lucin]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

I may have...

"Maintenant, puisque l'infini seul n'est pas un mensonge, enlevons-nous, oublieux des autres paroles humaines, en notre même Infini..." ?

(Strategically speaking, I must say this was not a very wise move on your part, Lucin, I mean, in the context of this discussion, given the "reactionary" reputation associated with the author. No doubt our progressist friend Siamanto will take advantage of this in order to denounce the collusion of the "reactionaries" )

Oh, yeah... But I'm sure axel that, she would have said 'that' in a different thread as well...

jurks are watching you. Shame on you all...

This is really what I don't like... but who turned the thread which was
about Sarko into this mess?
Her obsession is just bordering on medical...

[Armenian]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

allowing Ara Baliozian's writings to sound relevant (among other things)...

Valid point, but I do so with the intent of showing the unsuspecting viewer who happens to come along that our resident poet/intellectual is a joke. Some people come here and see an Armenian "poet's/ intellectual's" writings, do you think they won't form opinion? You must realize that Ara posts his garbage in Jooish and Turkish boards, and most probably they take him seriously.

[Siamanto]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

Valid point, but I do so with the intent of showing the unsuspecting viewer who happens to come along that our resident poet/intellectual is a joke. Some people come here and see an Armenian "poet's/ intellectual's" writings, do you think they won't form opinion? You must realize that Ara posts his garbage in Jooish and Turkish boards, and most probably they take him seriously.

..........

[Siamanto]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

Siamanto:
If I try to recap some of your assumptions & arguments (as I understood them)

I think that instead of "recap," you should have said "distort and confuse the situation" - even if done unintentionally.

In any case, I think that it would have been far more honest and productive of you to simply answer the specific and straightforward questions that I have asked; instead of confusing the situation with distortions of what I have allegedly said.
Furthermore, mostly and conventiently, foucusing on issues that we - i.e. you and I - were not debating. Why?

Maybe, the distortions/confusion can be explained by the fact that you have little time to properly focus on the details; in that case, you should have stayed out and should stop adding more confusion with half baked and gratuitous statements.
Not only you are adding more confusion, you're also making us waste our time - at least, mine.

1. Lucin and Armenian are members of the ARF
.....
my take ...
1. Not obvious at first glance though Armenian seems kind of close to the "movement".

Wrong. At no point, I made such an assumption or statement; in fact, I even said:

Who cares whether you are member, a sympathizer or...all matters is that you are assuming the role of watchdogs of the Armenian Reactionary Forces; watchdogs who "bark loud but can't bite."

I don't know how you have concluded the above; but, I suggest that you first take the time to read the thread and, only later, "recap?" what I said.

2. the ARF associates with "fascists" (the "right" in your understanding) or with socialists ("the left") as it sees fit. This demonstrates its complete lack of intellectual integrity and its inherently opportunistic nature.
...
my take ...
2. Contradicting currents (my previous point). Major cultural differences across countries (assimilation...)

The "right" in my understanding? What a poorly crafted distortion - or should I say "recap."
In fact, I have provided you, twice,
1. A URL where The Phalange Party is labeled as Fascist
2. A URL that links the SAVAK to the ARF and, though I did not label it as such, the Shah of Iran's regime is often labeled as Fascist.
How could you have missed the links that I have provided? Let's try again:

3. How do you explain that in one country the Armenian Reactionary Forces support a Fascist party - that you mildly call "nationalist" - and in another a Socialist party??? Can it be a sign of Intellectual Integrity and Honesty or the lack of it?
Also, how do you explain the fact that the ARF was financed by the SAVAK of Iran's Shah? Would you consider the Shah as Socialist minded?

Did I label the UMP, UDF or others as Fascist? Confused or confusing the issues?
Can we be a bit fair and honest? Thanks!


As for your "take" on it, I have also previously said - a bon entendeur salut!

The above is true of other Armenian organizations; however, only the ARF is known for
1. Political opportunism and flip-flopping
2. Physical aggression and harassment - including assassination - of members of the community

Most of all, by trying to explain the reasons of the ARF's political opportunism, you are admitting it.

3. It so happens that the ARF did not express support for Nicolas Sarkozy. But ideologically speaking, it should have because it is in reality a reactionary / conservative movement (again in your view)
.....
my take ...
3. In France, the ARF stands close to the socialist party (this is a fact) whereas the Ramgavar party is close to the UMP. The french ARF cannot by any standard be considered as a conservative movement (in any acceptation of the word). Neither Armenian nor Lucin (as I understand their worldview) may possibly associate with it as it is.

1. Wrong. I have never said that "ideologically speaking, it should have because it is in reality a reactionary / conservative movement."
Please stop distorting and limit yourself to the text of what I have said and be courteous enough to quote a text where I suggested the above. Thanks.

2. I have asked many questions that you have conveniently eluded that suggest how (far from) LOL "close" the ARF is/was to the Socialist party. [I still love the "always." ]
Also, I have provided enough examples that suggests that, even in France, the Armenian Reactionary Forces is a conservative movement.

If you were honest, you would have answered the my previous questions; eluding them is indicative enough.

4. Lucin's stance in this thread is thus of partisan nature. If the ARF had ("logically") express support for Nicolas Sarkozy, she would have kept silent and not taken every single opportunity to blast Sarkozy.
From there, you infer that Lucin is a hypocrite (and quite possibly a "hooligan")

1. The above assumes that 3 is true - and in a weaker way, 1; considering that both 3 and 1 are false, your reasoning is baseless. I don't even want to consider the details of it.

2. As for the use of the word "hypocrite," you seem to have completely missed it: in fact, one can "blast Sarkozy" regardless of his/her political orientations and party affiliations; "hypocrite" may characterize how it is done by the person. Too subtle???

3. (Somehow joking) I think that you should control your imagination because, LOL you should not be jumping from "hypocrite" to "hooligan" only because both start with an 'h.' Maybe, you're getting tired???

5. Lucin is not "perceptive", her thinking is binary (not to mention Reichsführer Armenian)
my take ...
...
5. This is a gratuitous statement as far as Lucin is concerned and, if true, would almost stand in contradiction with her being a "hypocrite".

Finally, we agree on something: je persiste et signe.
Yes, I said it and I repeat it. I assure you that I had enough time to come to that conclusion and , contrary to what you may think, I'm being polite. The examples are abundant.

As for your "take," it is nonsensical and beyond funny: how "not being perceptive" is in (almost???) contradiction with being "hypocrite?" That's the dumbest thing I've heard for a while. Also, what is an "almost contradiction?" Thanks.
There are millions of hypocrite individuals who are not perceptive.

Whereas there could be validity to some of these points if Lucin was the average (bark-on-demand) french militant of the ARF, these appear to be utterly wrong.

What are you talking about and with whom? Can you please get a hold of your wandering imagination and focus on you're told??? Thanks! You are totally confused and lost in a Web of false assumptions and distortions.
Is Lucin the issue here? What are you discussing? Why are you confusing all issues???

By the way, wouldn't it be more productive if you simply answered my questions instead of conveniently hiding behind other issues?

4. The pseudo-"right"/"left" cleavage seems to be your primary angle of analysis (in addition to your focalizing on the ARF).

[I did not put the above with your "assumption/distortion 4;" because, though somehow related, I thought that it would be less confusing if addressed independently.]

Now, you're being funny, because

1. The right/left were mentioned because we were discussing your utterly untenable statements where you associated the ARF, the Socialist Party, the Armenian Community of France and the left :
" The ARF in France has always had close ties with the socialist party" and
" Generally speaking, Armenians in France have traditionally associated with the left."
Did you lose track???

2. Armenian brought in "Lenin" that he later changed to "Bolshevik" after, in my reply, I questioned his choice of Lenin - LOL as if it made any difference, as for my reply, but that's his naive understanding of political movements.
Did you follow the thread???

3. Less importantly, in your last post you said:
"PPS: I don't understand why you are so adamant to support the newly elected (thanks to massive spin) american puppet and how you can possibly label Lucin a hypocrite (?!)."
Now, you're accusing of me of being confined to the "pseudo-'right'/'left' cleavage."
Can you make up your mind???

I suggest that you read the thread in order to understand the when, who and how. Again, either you're either confusing yourself or try to confuse the reader.

It is not relevant in the context of this discussion (neither is the ARF). As I see it, the cleavage here rather stands between partisans and opponents to the (US-led) unipolar world order.

It is crystal-clear to anyone who has read just a few posts by Armenian, skhara or even Lucin, that their political/geopolitical views are essentially shaped by hostility towards the "new world order" (this having little to do with the ARF, if at all).

Yes, the ARF is not relevant in the discussion that involves Sarkozy's policies; that is exactly why
1. I told Կարմիր Բ

I did not want to go there and I don't want to base the discussion on what is said below; but, since you asked:

2. I did not base my argumentation when discussing Sarkozy's policies on anything related to the ARF. Please take the time to read the thread. Thanks!

However, later, the ARF became a subject of discussion, a different discussion, and that's when you made a "spectacular and poetic" entrance with utterly ridiculous statements about the ARF, the Socialist Party and the Armenian Community of France and the left - obviously, before taking the time to read the thread.

You really need to make some effort to get your facts straight; otherwise, you will continue to confuse yourself and the forum. Thanks!

As to Armenian... well, he seems to master the edit/delete function on this board. Already a good point. The rewrite of one of his not-so-well-inspired post in the Russia thread was quite in order. In addition, I must say his almost glorifying Tavarich Stalin (not sure this stands in line with the ARF's discourse btw) and illustrating Volodia's policies with soviet-era posters is not quite "perceptive". "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" seems to summarize his line of thinking on global/historical matters to such an extent that the propaganda of the "enemy" might very well determine his allegiances. On the other hand, he seems quite capable of critical thinking. So it's just a question of him not defining himself and his positions dialectically, in the terms set by the "enemy".

I don't read that often those threads because there's seldom anything "new" i.e. that I did not hear somewhere else or did not know or....So, I can't comment further. Sorry!
As for his comments, I find them inarticulate, rudimentary, embryonic and of little insight. As I have said earlier, Sarkozy is a more literate and politically subtle/refined version of him.
As for the person, I honestly believe that he's psychotic - in it's clinical meaning - and he's a bully, just like Sarkozy.

This discussion with you is closed as far as I am concerned.

As I have said last time, I can understand that - to use your own words - you "are not willing to engage in a sterile debate;" but, in that case you should not have opened, and with such confidence, Pandora's Box with utterly untenable statements.
To make the situation worse, you have chosen to conveniently eluded very specific and straightforward questions; instead, you are running away. With all due respect, I find it a bit irresponsible.

[Armenian]

Re: Sarkozy - Friend or Foe?

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