Are Armenians white????

[bakothegreat]

Re: Are Armenians white????

You are starting to make a bit more sense now, but again, Wikipedia isn't very credible, but I won't judge your sources for the sake of conversation.

Here you present your understanding....which I already cited is most likely not true, which was the point of my response to your claim. I am stating that your opinion, regardless how full of content it is or calibrated it may seem, does not hold much value, to me that is. If others choose to believe you, that is their personal choice.

It's my understanding that the Hurrians (influenced the Hittites) had a Indo-European elite and that Urartian predated the entry of Indo-European (Armenian) into the region. Many indigenous European elements in the Balkans where Indo-Europeanised and this region links to Anatolia.

[Nare]

Re: Are Armenians white????

Now Anatolia is modern-day Iran, Iraq and Syria? And Greeks are not white either? lol

Anatolia is a part of Armenian Highland and if any nation comes from that region it means they come from Armenia.

If you are Armenian use the right term for the region...

3. The Armenian origin of the Etruscans – Google Books
Armenian Origin Of The Etruscans
by Robert Ellis



Stephen Oppenheimer, a medical geneticist at the University of Oxford, published a new book “The Origins of the British: A Genetic Detective Story” ( http://www. amazon. com/Origins-British-Genetic-Detective-Story/sim/0786718900/1?ie=UTF8&pf=book ).
He claims that the historians are wrong in almost every aspect. In Dr. Oppenheimer’s restoration of events based on Y-chromosome and mtDNA analysis, three-quarters of the ancestors of the modern british arrived on what became the British Isles between 15,000 and 7,500 years ago, at the end of the last ice age, when Britain was still attached to the mainland of Europe. They shared a genetic heritage with the Basques and spoke a language related to Basque language. The British Isles were unpopulated then, the new arrivals in the British Isles found an empty territory. Thus both Britain and Ireland have been inhabited for thousands of years by a single people that have remained in the majority, with only minor additions from later invaders like Celts, Romans, Angles, Saxons, Vikings and Normans. But these incursions had little effect on the basic Basque genetic heritage. That heritage is strongest in Ireland, where only 12 percent of the population descends from migrants who came after the Basques. In southern and eastern England, nearer the Continent, the figure is about one third. The Anglo ¬ Saxons and the Celts were small immigrant groups. “Neither group had much more impact on the British Isles gene pool than the Vikings, the Normans or, indeed, immigrants of the past 50 years,” he writes.
“…So the question comes where Basques originated from? The Basques are unique ethnic group, that inhabit parts of northwestern Spain and southwestern France. There have been several hypothesis regarding origin of those people. But lets refer to the founders of Basque national historiography Esteban de Garibay, Andres de Posa and Baltasar de Echave. All of them considered Armenia as homeland of Basques. Esteban de Garibay thought that Iberia was populated by descendants of Tubal, Noah’s grandson, who went to Iberia thirty-five years after the Flood subsided.
Garibay observed that Basque place-names bore a resemblance to those in ARMENIA ( http://www. gipuzkoakultura. net/ediciones/versus/estevez-es. htm ).
Baltasar de Echave writes: “the first settlers arrived to Iberia after the Universal deluge with the children of Noah from “ours loved mother country ARMENIA” (http://www. ingeba. euskalnet. net/lurralde/lurranet/lur22/ore22/22ore. htm ).
Interestingly legendary ancestor of the Basques had a name Aitor, which in Armenian means Grandson of Armenian. The Armenian origin of Basques was strongly supported by several prominent researchers, such as Gaspar Eskolano, Edward Spencer Johnson, Joseph Karst, Bernardo Estornes Lasa, Nikolay Marr.
In conclusion, there was a genetic study done in different regions of Armenia, that detected that the characteristic genetic code prevalent in Welsh, Basques and Irish, called the Atlantic Modal Haplotype, is also present in Armenian population of Syunik and Karabakh. These are two Armenian provinces predominantly isolated in the mountains, which precluded genetic admixture with neighboring ethnic groups and nations”.
The Armenian modal haplotype is also the modal R1b3 haplotype.
The web page also mentions Basque sub-groups R1b3 and has a link for that item.

[retro]

Re: Are Armenians white????

Oppenheimers theories are overly simplistic, Pseudohistory.

The Basques language and culture is extremely ancient and predates anything else in Western Eursian.

However that study done by Balaresque et al.(2009) had many biases and more recent studies have proven that Subclades of R1b1b2 might have originated on Western Europe during the Holocene before the Neolithic Expansion. According to Myres et al.(2010): "The coalescent estimate for the Y-STR network tree of 245 M269*+L23(xM412) chromosomes is 10 270±1680 years Before Present (BP)" Clearly predating the Neolithic Expansion from Anatolia. Another study done by Cruciani et al. (2010) has also confirmed that there is a clear dichotomy between the Western-Eastern branches of R1b1b2, and many scientist now consider that R1b1b2 might have in fact originated in southeastern Europe in the Upper Paleolithic time, expanding from there to Western Europe and Anatolia. According to Cruciani et al. (2010):

The overall frequency pattern of theR1b1b2 sub-haplogroups here analyzed is compatible with several scenarios, including mutation surfing on the wave of advance of an expanding population and/or local bottlenecks and re-expansion from refuge areas. Preliminary time expansion estimates for haplogroups R1b1b2g (8.3ky; 95%CIs 5.8–10.9ky) and R1b1b2h (7.4ky; 95%CIs 5.3–10.2ky), based on 7STRs analyzed on 24 and 27 males respectively, are compatible with both Neolithic and post-glacial expansion/s within Europe. The majority (58.7%) of R1b1b2 chromosomes from Europe were found to be ancestral for both U106 and U152 (paragroup R1b1b2*) and showed a frequency cline from western to eastern Europe. Further studies are needed to refine the R1b1b2 phylogeny and fully disclose the micro-evolutionary events underlying the present frequency distribution of R1b1b2 sub-haplogroups.

In regards to the presence of R1b1b2(R-M269) in Basque and other Western Europeans a more recent study states:

A recent network analysis of the R-M269 Y chromosome lineage has purportedly corroborated Neolithic expansion from Anatolia, the site of diffusion of agriculture. However, the data are still controversial and the analyses so far performed are prone to a number of biases. In the present study we show that the addition of a single marker, DYSA7.2, dramatically changes the shape of the R-M269 network into a topology showing a clear Western-Eastern dichotomy not consistent with a radial diffusion of people from the Middle East. We have also assessed other Y-chromosome haplogroups proposed to be markers of the Neolithic diffusion of farmers and compared their intra-lineage variation — defined by short tandem repeats (STRs) — in Anatolia and in Sardinia, the only Western population where these lineages are present at appreciable frequencies and where there is substantial archaeological and genetic evidence of pre-Neolithic human occupation. The data indicate that Sardinia does not contain a subset of the variability present in Anatolia and that the shared variability between these populations is best explained by an earlier, pre-Neolithic dispersal of haplogroups from a common ancestral gene pool. Overall, these results are consistent with the cultural diffusion and do not support the demic model of agriculture diffusion.

Autosomal genetic studies confirm that Basques have a very close relationship with other Europeans, especially with Spaniards, who have a common genetic identity of over 70% with Basques.

In fact, according to a Europe-wide study, the main components in the European genomes appear to derive from ancestors whose features were similar to those of modern Basques and Near Easterners, with average values greater than 35% for both these parental populations, regardless of whether or not molecular information is taken into account. The lowest degree of both Basque and Near Eastern admixture is found in Finland, whereas the highest values are, respectively, 70% "Basque" in Spain and more than 60% "Near Eastern" in the Balkans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people#Genetics

According to Schmidt both proto-Celtic and Armenian share certain Eastern Indo-Iranic characteristic.

Armenian and Celtic - Towards a New Classification of Early Indo-European

http://www.science.org.ge/2007-vol1/199-202.pdf

Whilst Armenian do seemingly have obscure, cultural links to Western Europeans. Armenian R1b only accounts around a third of the Armenian male population.

If anything the women in the Caucasus, who are closer to the Europeans (as is the case with the Kurds), since the regions male lineage is far more diverse.

"Y chromosome haplogroup diversity in the Caucasus was almost as high as in Central Asia and the Near East, and significantly higher than in Europe."

"Overall, the Caucasus groups showed greater similarity with West Asian than with European groups for both genetic systems, although this similarity was much more pronounced for the Y chromosome than for mtDNA, suggesting that male-mediated migrations from West Asia have influenced the genetic structure of Caucasus populations."

"However, the Y-chromosome results differed from the mtDNA results in that they indicated a much closer relationship of Caucasus groups to West Asian groups, whereas mtDNA indicated a closer relationship of Caucasus groups to Europe than to West Asia."

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/caucasus.pdf

Celtic-Armenian style Altar in Marmashen, North-West Armenia.

[jgk3]

Re: Are Armenians white????

How do you know that all these sources talking about history, culture and language, are plausible, and not just speculation? Just because scholars individual say them, they gain credibility? You should remember that every fragment of "evidence" you post, is subject to debate, and probably has been debated in the scientific community. However, none of these theories you guys are posting are being adequately described in terms of where they stand in such debates.

[levon]

Re: Are Armenians white????

How do you know that all these sources talking about history, culture and language, are plausible, and not just speculation? Just because scholars individual say them, they gain credibility? You should remember that every fragment of "evidence" you post, is subject to debate, and probably has been debated in the scientific community. However, none of these theories you guys are posting are being adequately described in terms of where they stand in such debates.

I think you did the same thing once or twice

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenians white????

How do you know that all these sources talking about history, culture and language, are plausible, and not just speculation? Just because scholars individual say them, they gain credibility? You should remember that every fragment of "evidence" you post, is subject to debate, and probably has been debated in the scientific community. However, none of these theories you guys are posting are being adequately described in terms of where they stand in such debates.

Which judge and jury decides what evidence successfully supports the case?

[retro]

Re: Are Armenians white????

The R1 highest level of diversity of Y-STR haplotype variation is in Western/Central Asia and R1 is associated with early Indo-European Eurasian expansion.

Nomadic Indo-Iranic peoples where the first people to domesticate the horse. Which is how R1a was able to traverse vast distances and expanded, so rapidly throughout Eurasia.

The Basques Rb1 are likely the result of pre-Neolithic, elite replacement. The Celts in the British Isles are mostly from North Western Iberia (Celtiberians) and this is why they are closely related to the Basques.

Whilst R1b is likely paleolithic in origin, it occurs at the highest frequency on the Atlantic fringe. As the result of Westward Indo-European Neolithic migration/expansion. Only Haplogroup I is thought to have emerged and be indigenous to Europe.

Haplogroup I was largely displaced in the Neolithic from Western Europe by R1.

Lichtenstein Cave

The Lichtenstein Cave is an archaeological site near Dorste, Lower Saxony, Germany. The cave is 115 meters long and was discovered in 1972. Finds include the skeletal remains of 21 females and 19 males from the Bronze Age, about 3000 years old. In addition, about 100 bronze objects (ear, arm and finger rings, bracelets) and ceramic parts from the Urnfield Culture were found.

Both mitochondrial DNA and Y-chromosome DNA tests were conducted on the skeletons and published by the University of Göttingen. Mitochondrial haplogroups found included 17 from H, 5 from T2, 9 from U5b and 5 from J*. Out of the 19 males represented in the cave, 15 yielded the full 12 tested STR values, with twelve showing haplotypes related to I2b2 (at least four lineages), two to R1a (probably one lineage), and one to R1b predicted haplogroups.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lichtenstein_Cave

http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers...ysis0804DS.pdf

It's also intresting to note, that whilst Amerindian populations are very far removed from Western Eurasians. The Amerindians Haplogroup Q, like Haplogroup R is descended from Haplogroup P.

Hence Amerindians are in a twist of irony are actually very distantly related to Western Eurasians and these two sibling Eurasian lines have managed to circumnavigate the globe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_P_%28Y-DNA%29

[bakothegreat]

Re: Are Armenians white????

Retro, I am trying to draw conclusions from the information you have presented, most of which can be completely ignored, but lets pretend for a second you were right, I don't understand what you are inferring? I don't think anyone does, you just keep throwing out information. Is it safe to assume that you are implying that Armenians are a Eurasian Blender?

Unfortunately I have absolutely no Asian phenotypes minus one. Black Hair. Which is actually Dark brown when put under a microscope.
All the other Mongoloid Phenotypes I seem to be missing.
Small Penis -Not Present
Flat Face - Not Present
Small Nose with no bridge - Not Present
Virtually Hairless Body - Not Present
Drooping Down Eyes - Not Present
Round head- Not Present

[Mos]

Re: Are Armenians white????

This thread title should really be renamed, or the discussion be continued in a more appropriately titled thread.

[retro]

Re: Are Armenians white????

Retro, I am trying to draw conclusions from the information you have presented, most of which can be completely ignored, but lets pretend for a second you were right, I don't understand what you are inferring? I don't think anyone does, you just keep throwing out information. Is it safe to assume that you are implying that Armenians are a Eurasian Blender?

Western Eurasians caucasoids (i.e. Europeans, Near Easterns and Western Asians) are all closely related. I am not inferring that Armenians are "Mongoloid". The Mongols are ancient Asians. Eurasians (at least paternally) are originally descended from India. Phenotypes, and the genes governing skin tone, eye, hair colour etc. are the result of regional adaptations, not ancestry and such traits are acquired via admixture.