Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[Haykakan]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

First of all, really happy for your sister. Bravo!
Second, don't you think that she managed to go that far, exactly because of those things like perseverence, hard work and determination, that usually form part of that traditional upbringing we Armenian girls undergo?!

But you just said it was not the upbringing in your earlier post.I guess you changed your mind.Yes like i said it has everything to do with her upbringing the problem is this was not the upbringing "most armenian girls undergo" because thats not what most armenian girls did.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

But you just said it was not the upbringing in your earlier post.I guess you changed your mind.Yes like i said it has everything to do with her upbringing the problem is this was not the upbringing "most armenian girls undergo" because thats not what most armenian girls did.

Haykakan, as far as those of us in the Armenian communities and its inner circles, we all know the "typical Armenian upbringing". We also know that we are exposed to our surrounding environment, where ever we might be whether it's the US, Canada, France, Turkey, UK, Australia, Armenia, Lebanon, Iran, etc. You can tell that certain Armenians have picked up some of the good and bad habits from other cultures in addition to their Armenian culture. Some countries tend to assimilate culture more than others. Most Armenians struggle with their Armenian identity while trying to fit into their social circles in school and their new society in general. The situation you described was more of the influence of American culture than "Armenian upbringing" because I know exactly what you're talking about and let's face it, as hard as we try to maintain our culture and identity, we'll win some, and we'll lose some.

[Haykakan]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Haykakan, as far as those of us in the Armenian communities and its inner circles, we all know the "typical Armenian upbringing". We also know that we are exposed to our surrounding environment, where ever we might be whether it's the US, Canada, France, Turkey, UK, Australia, Armenia, Lebanon, Iran, etc. You can tell that certain Armenians have picked up some of the good and bad habits from other cultures in addition to their Armenian culture. Some countries tend to assimilate culture more than others. Most Armenians struggle with their Armenian identity while trying to fit into their social circles in school and their new society in general. The situation you described was more of the influence of American culture than "Armenian upbringing" because I know exactly what you're talking about and let's face it, as hard as we try to maintain our culture and identity, we'll win some, and we'll lose some.

You raise some very good points there and we as Armenians have plenty to be proud of like our culture, history, beutifull languadge and the fact that we are still here! I think by sticking to our humanity we can mitigate much of the negative effects other cultures/environments have on us.Many Armenians from the middle east are more arab then armenian and they have embraced the money loving culture of that area, some russian armenians living in russia feel too ashamed to be labeled "chorni"(dark skinned) by the racist russian society and will do anything to hide their armenian side.There are many examples but the answer to all of these situations is the same "just be yourself".Be the natural human being you were meant to be and these other factors will have minimal effect on you.it is not always a good idea to "fit in" especially when in your gutt you feel that something is wrong with the society.The best way to maintain your Armenian heritage is to go to armenia and establish ties there and absorb the nature and feel of whats left of our homeland. Armenia itself is changing and unfortunatly becoming more like what they consider "western" countries, but still it is the best thing we got going.I am so sick of listening to all these people who claim to be true patriots in their later years yet they have never been to Armenia, give me a break if you are so damn armenian then howcome you couldn't muster enoughf of your armenian spirit to go see your homeland even once in your whole "patriotic life", its only a couple hour flight from most middle eastern countries which are full of these "patriotic" armenians.

[Barshimnia]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I'm not familiar with the culture of this forum, but I have noticed that issues of importance to Armenian women are seldom discussed.

I think that Armenian women are "handicapped" when compared to women of other cultures, not all cultures. For instance, Armenian women are forced to kill the little charmer in them and end up unlearning how to seduce and/or feel guilty about it. A form of excision? Sadly, some compensate for the loss use their body and/or a behavior with sexual connotations to charm and seduce, as I see it charm has nothing to do with body or sex. Others become easy victims of the first boy who does the clown and promises them the moon.

There's also domestic violence and/or its milder form i.e. "silencing" in one way or another those who dare to stand up for themselves.

The worse part is that I don't think that the situation changed much, and many young girls are still victim of the same oppressive values.
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Hi Kattie
I am very new to this forum, well I have been reading for a while but this is my first post. I have been reading the thread that you have started and I believe that everyone is correct somewhat. We are ants attempting to describe an elephant, therefore we all see only tiny aspects of this grand topic.

The way I see this is rather simple. Be it American, Armenian, Arab, Russian or anyone else for that matter if one is a traditional person with strong traditional values then you are correct and the pay back will most likely be that one will remain in a long term relationship and put up with domestic violence or "silencing" or any other treatment that may come their way, on a long term basis. However if one is not a traditional person and finds the strength to walk away from such a relationship then that person will need to seek therapy otherwise the pay back will simply be that instead of experiencing domestic violence or "silencing" in one relationship they will experience it in several.

I personally strongly disagree with you and do not believe that all Armenian women are handicapped or that our girls are victims of oppressive values and etc.

Kattie, I am also really intrested as to know the origin of your name, as Kattie is truly not an Armenian name nor an Armenian choice. I would greatly appreciate if you were to share that with me.

[Haykakan]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Hi Kattie
I am very new to this forum, well I have been reading for a while but this is my first post. I have been reading the thread that you have started and I believe that everyone is correct somewhat. We are ants attempting to describe an elephant, therefore we all see only tiny aspects of this grand topic.

The way I see this is rather simple. Be it American, Armenian, Arab, Russian or anyone else for that matter if one is a traditional person with strong traditional values then you are correct and the pay back will most likely be that one will remain in a long term relationship and put up with domestic violence or "silencing" or any other treatment that may come their way, on a long term basis. However if one is not a traditional person and finds the strength to walk away from such a relationship then that person will need to seek therapy otherwise the pay back will simply be that instead of experiencing domestic violence or "silencing" in one relationship they will experience it in several.

I personally strongly disagree with you and do not believe that all Armenian women are handicapped or that our girls are victims of oppressive values and etc.

Kattie, I am also really intrested as to know the origin of your name, as Kattie is truly not an Armenian name nor an Armenian choice. I would greatly appreciate if you were to share that with me.

Welcome to the forum, i hope your participation will be a regular occurance. I don't think Kattie meant that "ALL" armenian women are handicapped in this manner but she obviously knows some who are and i know of many myself. The idea that walking away from a abusive relationship dooms you to another round of the same thing in the next relationship seems without merit.If you are in a truely abusive relationship then you really should get out even if there are childeren involved.Not all men and not all women are the same.If you are being abused(this does not mean he called you a bad word once or even smacked you once, this applies to a constant pattern of abuse) you need to leave otherwise you are putting yourself in physical and psychological risk by staying.If such abuse continues from one relationship to the next then you may want to revise the criteria you use in determining a future partner.

[Barshimnia]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Welcome to the forum, i hope your participation will be a regular occurance. I don't think Kattie meant that "ALL" armenian women are handicapped in this manner but she obviously knows some who are and i know of many myself. The idea that walking away from a abusive relationship dooms you to another round of the same thing in the next relationship seems without merit.If you are in a truely abusive relationship then you really should get out even if there are childeren involved.Not all men and not all women are the same.If you are being abused(this does not mean he called you a bad word once or even smacked you once, this applies to a constant pattern of abuse) you need to leave otherwise you are putting yourself in physical and psychological risk by staying.If such abuse continues from one relationship to the next then you may want to revise the criteria you use in determining a future partner.

Thanks for the welcome and you are absolutely correct dear, but simply walking away is not enough if one desires to end an abusive cycle, one needs to realise why they are in it in the first place and a lot more and I also was trying to make a point that this topic is not a uniquely Armenian trait rather a human trait.

[iFemale]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I also was trying to make a point that this topic is not a uniquely Armenian trait rather a human trait.

Indeed.

Welcome to the forum.

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Sasco jan du migitch shat aghjkeki vor mtar.

Du chugites inch es asum! I just showed and continue to show them the respect they deserve … something some of you are finding hard to do. I asked you a few questions and neither you nor Kattie answered them.

No one is saying Armenian women are incapable of these things but obviously the fact that this thread exists and was started by a woman indicates that there is a issue to discuss. No one here is making up issues or problems that don't exist and it is good that we discuss them.

Definitely, but this thread was a bit confusing from the beginning. Before we can have such a discussion, we must first and foremost decide who we’re talking about … the majority of Armenian girls or just girls living in the US, Armenia, Europe, or somewhere else. Plus, I think we should be talking about the guys, not the girls. Why? Because they are the ones that misuse them! Our girls are raised properly, I have no doubts there, and I can prove my point so let's start talking about the REAL problem, shall we?

I’ll give you an example of « old mind ». When my father arrived alone in France, he was 22 years old. Soon later, he wrote a letter to his mother who was still in Constantinople, that he had met a French woman and wanted to marry her. I found the reply of her mother, written in armenian. She wrote « I don’t want you to marry a French woman, you must marry an Armenian, from Adabazar.
I have a school friend who lives in Marsilia, she has a daughter 21 years old, you go and ask her parents to marry her ». So, my father who was working in Paris, went to Marseille, found the family
Yeramian at the address that his mother had written to him, he told his story, and asked to see their
daughter. She was at work. Her brother brought her at home. She knew Hrant,they had been at the
same nursery school, but she told her father she did not want to marry, she wanted to be a nun. Her father said : you are our only girl, you have to get married. Then they spent the day telling their exile story, he played violin, and both accepted to be nchanvadz. Next day he returned to Paris,
to his work. Two months later, my grand-mother Aroussiag came to Paris to bring her daughter.
They get married in the Apostolic church, my father had a friend Azad Tarpinian who became their
‘gnkahayr’. Then my mother had to work, because they need money, they had nothing. Later, my grandmother and grand father and uncle, came live to Paris too. When I was born, my mother did not work any more outside. My father was very authoritarian, he demanded his children to speak only Armenian at home, he forbid my mother to speak one turkish word. I learnt French at school. We were not allowed to talk French at home.

Why do you think he did? I understand what you mean by “Old Minded” but I don’t consider this exactly wrong. Let’s look at American society, shall we? Many, many Armenians there don’t know a thing about Armenia. On April 24th, they go down to Disney World to “celebrat” lol, for crying out loud. This is just one example out of hundreds and all this happens because the parents of this new generation didn’t have any rules at home. They don’t know a thing because they weren’t raised in an Armenian family. Their parents didn’t make them learn.

Madam, I am a 19 year old pure Armenian born in Armenia on the 21st of September and have a younger sister (Lilit, 16) and brother (Narek, 11) who I set an example for every day. I have been to many, many countries in my life and have seen all kinds of people and my Mother thought us Armenian in the US … AT HOME … everyday after school (I thank her everyday for everything she’s done) explaining to us how important it is to remember who we are. We knew so many languages OTHER then our own mother tongue and at first, it was hard sitting and learning but after that, I began to love my language and my people more then anyone else. Very, very soon I understand what a hellish place America is and my ENTIRE family came back to Armenia and we’ve been here for a few years now and don’t want to leave. We've settled down.

I don’t consider this “old minded”. The reason any Armenian parent would make his/her children speak Armenian at home is so that the family stays an Armenian family. In the US, people forget who they are very easily (automatically) and that’s why the country is screwed up. People have no idea who they are at all. Our values, traditions, language, morals, and way of life are what make us Armenian ... not our Armenian T-Shirts!

Back then, after the Genocide, Armenians were staying close together and trying to keep their nation alive … that is why no one wanted an Armenian to marry a girl/boy from another nation. They wanted their people to stay together. Plus, the modern world was changing drastically. PEOPLE were changing, becoming more spoiled, and our forefathers and mothers didn’t want us to marry the wrong people (which I’m sure we would want as well). We can see this today as well and I completely support these views. I know so many Indians, Armenians, etc. that married people from the US, etc. and became completely different people. You have to be careful who you marry because their way of living soon becomes your way of living or you have to be powerful and smart enough to make YOUR way of living THEIR way of living. To do that though, you have to have great knowledge about your country, your values, your traditions, and so much more. That’s why those who don’t know much easily jump to conclusions and think their people are “old minded”. What they don’t know is that they, themselves, are dead minded. Many times, individuals know that and don’t want to admit it. They just want to live the easy, MODERN, life because our way of life isn't "cool enough" for them!

Anyways, there are a lot of reasons why our parents or grandparents do what they do or did and I don’t think AT ALL that all this stems from “old mindedness”. And even if it does, I don’t want that to change. We should move on with the modern world but not allow it to move US. The modern world shouldn’t change us. We should change the world.

My father also required we speak only armenian at home. As my sister and i grew older he relaxed that rule.

Because your language and country became a part of who you are Haykakan. I speak three languages and a little bit Turkish and Russian and I communicate with all kinds of people from so many countries on a DAILY basis. Does this change anything? No. Why? Because my parents never allowed me to forget who I am when I was growing up. Now, when I’m nineteen, they don’t mind if I speak any language in the house or visit any country I like because they have prepared me in every way and I couldn't be more proud for having parents like them. We all speak English, Armenian, and whatever we like, WHENEVER we like. Why? Because we will never be able to forget who we are anymore no matter WHERE WE ARE. That’s why your father relaxed the rule when you grew up and not because Armenian or Armenia wasn’t important anymore…

My older sister is about 23 years old (she’s my Uncles daughter) and has a great job. She didn’t get married with an Armenia. She got married with a really nice guy from Greece. Now they are there and I’ll probably be there with my family to celebrate their wedding very soon. They have everything they need and the Greek loves our culture, our traditions, and everything … most importantly, my sister. He shows great respect and so do we. Everything is fantastic and no one has forgotten anything. My sis knows many languages, is a great translator, and has just settled down. She hasn’t dated hundreds of guys. She’s focused all her life and she got what she deserved. She is a great example of an Armenian women and I’m proud of her.

Did you guys find anything “old minded” in what I said? My Uncle and Aunt raised a sister I’ll always be proud to have. They raised an Armenian girl and prepared her for the world and this is what MANY families do, have no doubts whatsoever.

Why do they like being hostile? How charming.

That cat you’re talking to is more hostile in these forums then any one of us so I suggest you look at the bigger picture. No one is trying to attack you here.

I will not discuss the details, but I've seen cases where the man was eager to be with an Armenian woman, but ended up with a non-Armenian because of those handicaps, I will mention only two: Once the magic of the "first months" faded away, the men complained that the women were either unwilling or "unable" to charm, as if something was holding them back, or as if they were not even aware that it's part of the game or...By the way, the women did not want to break up and were apparently satisfied with the relationship.

And so you think the majority of Armenian girls are this way?

The second handicap is the fact that they are not allowed to freely communicate with the men.

You mean like in the modern world where girls can switch boyfriends whenever they like and flirt whenever they feel like it?

But you just said it was not the upbringing in your earlier post.I guess you changed your mind.Yes like i said it has everything to do with her upbringing the problem is this was not the upbringing "most armenian girls undergo" because thats not what most armenian girls did.

Most Armenian girls living WHERE? That’s what Meline is trying to say, dude. “WHERE” REALLY MATTERS!

There are many examples but the answer to all of these situations is the same "just be yourself".

Easier said then done! Where did you grow up Haykakan, if you don’t mind me asking?

I also was trying to make a point that this topic is not a uniquely Armenian trait rather a human trait.

…Something we’ve been trying to say for a long ass time!!!

Welcome aboard, Barshimnia, good to have you with us !

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Thanks for the welcome and you are absolutely correct dear, but simply walking away is not enough if one desires to end an abusive cycle, one needs to realise why they are in it in the first place and a lot more and I also was trying to make a point that this topic is not a uniquely Armenian trait rather a human trait.

Thats probably because the topic came from a Feminism class so it applies to women in general. Armenian women are "raised improperly", lol. Please, tell me another bedtime story. Like Saco said, the problem is with the men who mistreat them.

[Haykakan]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Saco you seem like a good Armenian young man but you are not grasping the problems these women are talking about. Perhaps you are too young and lack the experience of a long term relationship or maybe another reason i won't venture and guess. The point is that atleast some of the women feel that there is a issue with the way they were brought up and its consequences on their sexuality. I know this issue because i have witnessed it first hand many times.This problem is evident in many different places and is not localised to one area. It is not only effecting Armenians but many others who are subject to their own"traditional upbringing". I agree that being youself is easier said then done but it really is the best way to make peace with yourself and you need to do this before you can undestand things from other peoples perspective.Once you understand yourself you can start seeing the world for what it really is and not what other people tell you it is.I was born in Yerevan and lived there till i was 9, my family immigrated in 1981 and i have lived in the Detroit area since then.