Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

No, thats when giving starts, and through giving comes knowledge.Of course without love and respect its quite useless, knowing what it really takes is after doing not before.

If the "general" population knew what it "really takes", they would be more mature before jumping into relationships and marriage at a young age, don't you think?

Haykakan, I would expect you with your vast knowledge and wisdom to be able to lead the younger Armenian's in this forum in the right direction. You started out by complaining how they got married too young in your school... which I totally agree with, because we are no longer living within our own culture, and have to adapt.

I'm trying to distinguish between what our culture truly is, to what our culture has become, and how its affecting the younger generation. And I think those of us who are out in the world experiencing it for what it has become have a better understanding of the problems our culture faces.

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Natural inclination? Do you think 'charming' or having the 'charm' within is inherent to every single woman's nature? Do all of us possess the 'same' level of charm? And that some are able to express it while others not?

Good question. Something I want all of us to remember is that many people just aren't as charming as others and that ISN'T because they were brought up wrong. All of us are different. This also has A LOT to do with handicaps or whatever we're talking about here. Let's not place everything on traditions. It's just hilarious.

Nice... I'm glad that you did not include physical 'attractiveness' in it. I would also like to add that a woman who is comfortable in her skin, who has some degree of self-acceptance and sometimes tends to lack inhibition can emanate that 'charm' from herself...

Apres. I know a girl who isn't gorgeous but is very charming and makes everyone standing around her smile and laugh. Can we say she's that way mostly because of her "traditional upbringing"? I doubt it. So in the same way, you can't say that our girls are or aren't something because of their "traditional upbringing". That might just be one chapter of the story but not the entire story itself.

BY THE WAY, no one has mentioned a single tradition so far that "spoils" or "handicaps" our girls. I'm still waiting.

"armenian traditional upbringing" is not all that different then many other "traditional upbringings" when it comes to a women's sexuality and critisism regarding the issue is not disrespecting or putting down what it means to be armenian.

The way some talked was disrespectful in some ways so I'm sorry, I can't agree with you. And our traditions my friend ARE different and we owe a lot to them. They are not only very old and good for us in many ways but are also very interesting and special and when someone follows them, that doesn't make him/her "old minded". Let's look at something for a sec. Christianity is an old religion so by being Christians ... are we "old minded"? Of course not so why is someone old minded if he/she follows our Armenian traditions which are, in many respects, older then Christianity? Our history is over 4000 years old and so are many of our traditions. Till the 21st Century, very few had anything bad to say about tradition. Why do you think that is?

Dear Saco do you realize that i have lived in Armenia longer then you have

I wouldn't exactly say that, don't mean to be rude or anything. You said you lived in Armenia until you were nine and way back in the Soviet era. Things have changed considerably. I've lived in Armenia for 6-7 years at different periods and have been able to see the many phases our country has gone through very clearly and in great detail. After you went to the States, you said you visited from time to time and I said that's not enough. I've been here already for three years and have always been with the people and all kinds, not just guys or girls my age. That's where I get the right to talk. That's why I can understand what's going on here and I'm not saying you don't but some of your views are wrong and couldn't come from a person who lived here for a long time, mets yekhpayr.

and that eventhough i spend most of my time here in the states now i still spend time in Armenia as well and most of my friends here are armenian.

Armenians there and here are different, trust me. I'm not dissing anyone, don't get the wrong idea. I'm just saying this because I know. Armenians out there in the world are more openminded then many Armenians here and that is why you can see Armenians in the Diaspora getting more active then Armenians here in Armenia. That's something anyone that's lived here should know from the very beginning.

Experience is something that you cannot replace and when it comes to women our youngsters simply dont have this kind of experience yet ( refering to a long relationship or marriage).

I agree but that doesn't mean we don't have the right to talk. I know people older then you that haven't ever been married, have never slept with a women, but get visited by couples of all ages every single day just to get advice and they all get what they want, believe it or not. Many, many go home very, very happy. Experience doesn't only come from action or even knowledge. It comes from your nature, it comes from your past, it comes from your surroundings, and although I know you won't agree with me ... it also comes from your past LIFE and I can prove this! Don't base experience only on what someone has been through in his/her life or how old he/she is. I'm not saying I have all the experience in the world ...... I still have so much to learn ... I just want you to change your perspective when it comes down to experience. I know a four year old that plays the drums better then drumers ten times his age that have been playing for years and years. I've said this already in one of my posts. Now, explain to me how this kid is so experienced? Even those that have years of experience can't play like this kid.

I think Saco you are pretty mature for your age but i am not putting you down by saying you are inexperienced and that you need experience to undestand this particular thing.If i were you i would not take comfort in agreeing with Kanadahye's statements "I agree.", eventhough he is making progress he still has a long ways to go in presenting a rational argument without offending people on a consistent bases.

Perhaps, but he's said a lot and you haven't replied properly. You have to reply, Haykakan.

Maturity does not replace actual experience, you can be very mature but if you havent given birth you still don't know what it's like to do so.

But you don't need that experience to know much more!!! I don't know what it feels like to fall off a mountain but does that stop me from becoming or being a AAA mountain climber? You say we aren't married or haven't had children yet. What does that have to do with us having knowledge about our girls or women in general? I have personally lived in so many different countries, within many families, starting from the poor to the rich, have met girls from almost every nation and of all ages, have seen things most don't and never will, and I've experienced a lot of different things .... things many people, including you, might never experience in their entire life time ... and that's what I'm basing my views on. Only what I've experienced. I never speculate. There are a lot of things that YOU ALL have experienced naturally that I may never experience, as well, I'm not trying to brag here, we all have to learn from each other, so let's stop the "my horse is bigger then your horse" competition Haykakan because I've experienced a lot and so have you. You should be paying more attention to what I'm saying instead of testing my limits because I could surprise you, have no doubts, and I have no doubt that there is lot's I can learn from all here, especially you. I'm paying very close attention to what your saying and I'd appreciate it if you did as well instead of trying to make everyone look at my age. Many have tried in the past and have very soon realized that that method doesn't work when it comes to me. I'd like us to get more serious, if you don't mind.

The reason i don't respond to every statement you and kanadahye make is because some of them either have already been responded to,are redundent and make no sence or are hostile and unwarrented comments.

I have said so many things, have personally given many questions, have challenged your views professionally in many cases, and I don't like how your bringing up excuses. If you don't have time ... that's something else ... but don't try to cover up the fact that you haven't answered posts that challenged you and your views more then probably any other post in this entire thread! The one thing I can't stand is excuses.

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I'm trying to distinguish between what our culture truly is, to what our culture has become, and how its affecting the younger generation. And I think those of us who are out in the world experiencing it for what it has become have a better understanding of the problems our culture faces.

Just what I wanted to say. You reading my mind, K ?

What he's trying to say Haykakan is that the new generation knows more about the new generation then the older generation. It's natural but still, we should learn from the older generation as much as we can. I've come this far because I've done that my whole life. I owe so much of my experience to my elders and especially my parents.

[Haykakan]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

"Haykakan, I would expect you with your vast knowledge and wisdom to be able to lead the younger Armenian's in this forum in the right direction"
Yeh thats partly what i am trying to do but i guess you are somehow implying that i am not?While on this subject i would like to point out that since you started arguing with me in these forums you have become more comprehendable and less hostile although you still have some ways to go.I am also happy that you agree getting married too young is probably not a good idea especially when its to a much older bald dude with a gutt.
Our culture like everyone elses changes and perhaps more so then others because we are forced to live in other lands and end up absorbing some of their culture into ours.Our culture is rich with literature,song,dance... along with our long and partly sad history.We are all experiencing what our culture has become and it is something a bit different in one part of the world and a bit different again in another but we all are part of a basic Armenian culture and history which is truely amazing and that is what makes us all Armenian.Having said all this there is no reason to not criticise even the most amazing of things if you see things that need criticising.Nothing is perfect or untouchable and there is always room for improvement.

[Kattie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Sorry for the incorrect sentence should of edited it.What I meant was "Mixed (charm) with healthy dose of self-esteem.
I'll elaborate further.Self esteem comes from being loved, and not all girls have been loved as much as boys in our history, because of that sometimes you'll find overcompensation by certain members of the family which makes it evev worse .Parents love and encouragement goes a long way in producing a person that feels secure enough to love, and give.

Thanks for elaborating. Yes, I agree that it can have a negative impact on a woman's self-esteem.

BTW- I think less the degree in psychology, Kanada Still has a better insight to this issue then Haykakan.

What is Kanada's insight and how is it better than Haykakan's? All I see him do is bicker and pull strings, but I'd like to see how you perceive him.

I think this is a great topic and i applaud Kattie for bringing this subject up.

Thank you!
I think that we agree on the reality of the issue and it's importance, but our explanation of the situation do not totally overlap. That is a good thing because it gives the reader different perspectives. I will focus on our differences because that's the nature of a discussion.

A women's charm is a part of her sexuality and it is very much oppressed by most Armenian parents. Instead of discussing sexuality many parents will just say you should't act like that. By no means is this true for all Armenian women but generally speaking charming, flirting or anything sexual in nature is discouraged in most Armenian girls by their parents. This is by no means a Armenian problem and exists in many other cultures.

I agree that charm has a role in a woman's sexuality, but I'm not sure if our understanding of charm agree on all points. Earlier in this thread, I have tried to define "charm", what is your definition and how does it agree/disagree with mine?
I think that the main difference in our views is that you put more emphasis on sexuality while I put an emphasis on charm that I would like to distinguish from sexuality.

Discussing sexuality at the appropriate time with your child is the safest and healthiest way to raise a sexually enabled women and keeping her safe from the possible negative implications of sex (ie. unwanted pregnancy,std....). Sex,charm, flirting... are not bad things and it should not be a taboo to discuss them especially with your children.

These attributes (charm,sexuality..) are not automatically handed down like genes, they are learned through observation. Parents hide much of the sencual side of their relationship from their childeren and are always worried about the child having sex and getting into trouble. Openly discussing these issues allowes the child to have a healther perspective on the subject and not be as vulnerable to myths and misconseptions regarding it.

You're expecting more than I'm wishing for, you're asking parents to make an effort to "teach" their children about sexuality, all I wish for is that they stop repressing the natural inclination/instinct that women have to charm. Also, the entire community takes part of the repression, not only the parents.

The question is: does sexual education make a more charmful woman? I know Armenian girls with adequate sexual education, yet unable to charm beyond the initial magic.
Also, I don't find german women more sensual and charmful than polynesian women. Do you?

No one is saying Armenian women are incapable of these things but obviously the fact that this thread exists and was started by a woman indicates that there is a issue to discuss.No one here is making up issues or problems that don't exist and it is good that we discuss them.

I would add that women of different ages agreed that there is a problem.

In long term relationships or marriages women need to actually work on charming their partner, and i say work because it really is work for the women since she does not feel the same need and is doing it for her partner.

Women cannot do much as long as the community continues to repress what's natural in them. I think that women are the first victims, what more can they do?

Many times women will have sex not because they feel like it but because their partner does and they want to keep him happy.You can consider this right or wrong it is up to you but the fact is men need sex more often then women, it is in our biology.

It's not always about sex, in once case the man was not willing to have physical contact. Reason: lack of charm.

I hope this helps and i am happy you asked. As for your other question about communication, i think maybe being less reserved about what you want to say may help. If something is bothering you just tell him and then you can gage from his reaction how he feels about it.Communication is usefull but there is also such a thing as too much of it and again you can tell when that level is reached by observing his reaction.If you don't feel comfortable speaking to him then maybe he is not the one for you.

For the record, it is not about me and my goal is to raise and discuss an issue that I consider of importance.
By the way, I have tried to discuss the issue with an Armenian woman and all I got is "I agree so I can't add anything" as if she was avoiding the subject.

[Kiffer]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Chère Meline, j'ai essayé 3 fois de répondre à votre message, mais
je ne suis pas habituée à ce forum, ça ne marchait pas. Merci pour votre gentillesse. J'habite 21, rue Milaville à Ars-sur-Moselle, c'est à 11 km de Metz, je serais très heureuse de vous recevoir. Bise.
03 87 60 91 52 Louise Kiffer- Sarian

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

The question is: does sexual education make a more charmful woman? I know Armenian girls with adequate sexual education, yet unable to charm beyond the initial magic."

You're right, we should keep our girls dumb so they can be oblivious to the dangers of the world and just worry about being charming.

Also, I don't find german women more sensual and charmful than polynesian women. Do you?

Come again? I'm sure you'd be more charming if you grew up in the tropics as opposed to post WWII germany.

Women cannot do much as long as the community continues to repress what's natural in them. I think that women are the first victims, what more can they do?

I really don't know which community you're referring to. Or where you're getting your point of views.

[Gavur]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

If the "general" population knew what it "really takes", they would be more mature before jumping into relationships and marriage at a young age, don't you think?

Maturity has nothing to do with age, wisdom does.

[Gavur]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Thanks for elaborating. Yes, I agree that it can have a negative impact on a woman's self-esteem.


What is Kanada's insight and how is it better than Haykakan's? All I see him do is bicker and pull strings, but I'd like to see how you perceive him.

I thought Haykakan was laying it on a little too authoritative and wrong about the Freudian angle.I thought that Kanada was trying to probe the issue more, trying to understand the topic you were trying to display.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I thought Haykakan was laying it on a little too authoritative and wrong about the Freudian angle.I thought that Kanada was trying to probe the issue more, trying to understand the topic you were trying to display.

I think we're all still trying to probe the issue...

Not sure about you but I think what's natural in me is constantly being repressed

TGIF... lol.