Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[gegev]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

You're right, we should keep our girls dumb so they can be oblivious to the dangers of the world and just worry about being charming.


Come again? I'm sure you'd be more charming if you grew up in the tropics as opposed to post WWII germany.

I really don't know which community you're referring to. Or where you're getting your point of views.

Agree!!!

Your way of thinking is the good Armenian one.

It prevents our girls being affected by the antichrist education and ensures that they keep their promise given to her husband in church at wedding ceremony; to be obedient and clean of all civilized dirt.

Being obedient Armenian women play very important role in the family they are, in fact, the shadow Commander in Chief.

Agree!
Agree!
Agree!

[hrai]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Chère Meline, j'ai essayé 3 fois de répondre à votre message, mais
je ne suis pas habituée à ce forum, ça ne marchait pas. Merci pour votre gentillesse. J'habite 21, rue Milaville à Ars-sur-Moselle, c'est à 11 km de Metz, je serais très heureuse de vous recevoir. Bise.
03 87 60 91 52 Louise Kiffer- Sarian

Kiffer, a beautiful part of the world. For some years I lived in Trier.(Treves)

[hrai]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

... it also comes from your past LIFE and I can prove this!

Saco, I've got to see this!!!!

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

What is Kanada's insight and how is it better than Haykakan's? All I see him do is bicker and pull strings, but I'd like to see how you perceive him.

Do you realize that so far, only you and Haykakan have been agreeing with each other completely?

You're expecting more than I'm wishing for, you're asking parents to make an effort to "teach" their children about sexuality, all I wish for is that they stop repressing the natural inclination/instinct that women have to charm. Also, the entire community takes part of the repression, not only the parents.

Please explain how this works! Describe that repressment, won't you?

I would add that women of different ages agreed that there is a problem.

Yeah, but that doesn't mean our traditional upbringing is wrong or makes us handicapped! Could you tell us the problems they were mentioning?

I think that women are the first victims, what more can they do?

This isn't an Armenian problem alone. It's a natural problem you can find everywhere so let's not talk about this too often because it has nothing to do with "traditional upbringing".

Women cannot do much as long as the community continues to repress what's natural in them.

WHICH community?

You're right, we should keep our girls dumb so they can be oblivious to the dangers of the world and just worry about being charming.

That sounds like the perfect solution

I really don't know which community you're referring to. Or where you're getting your point of views.

She hasn't been telling us since she started this thread so I'm guessing she doesn't even know which community she's referring to. I think she's just met a handful of Armenian women and saw a problem and wants to talk about that. I have no objection but let's not be somehow blaming tradition or something.

It prevents our girls being affected by the antichrist education and ensures that they keep their promise given to her husband in church at wedding ceremony; to be obedient and clean of all civilized dirt.

I agree and I think the problem isn't mostly in the women ... but the men! Your in Yerevan bro, so I don't think I need to explain.

Saco, I've got to see this!!!!

Out of ALL I said, this is all you could find? lol. you asked for it.

I don't want to go very deep into detail because the point of this thread will be lost in time. One very small example of what I'm saying is a small Armenian boy here in Yerevan that won a talent contest on TV. He could name you every single part of the world (showing it on a map), talk about history, and let you know things you probably don't know and wouldn't know, lol. He was 5 if I'm not mistaken and he won the contest and is now in Disney World with his family (that was his prize)!

Another example is Cole Marcus, a four year old that could beat the drums better then thousands of drummers that have been playing for years. Most drummers get tired after awhile, naturally, because their hands start to hurt, right? Well this kid was FOUR and played as if he had 20 years of experience. Now, what do you call this...TALENT? Lol, this is way beyond that my friend.

The question I think is ... do you believe in life after death or reincarnation which not only the Hindu culture talks about but also the Bible? If you don't then you'll just say this is talent .... real great talent. It's beyond that, Hrai .... way beyond that. These kids were BORN the way they were. They didn't gather their experience as the years went by.

What is the one thing we can take with us after death, Hrai? All that we've learned. Our EXPERIENCE, knowledge, wisdom. NOTHIN MORE, NOTHING LESS. That's why, don't think everything is based on ones talents because talent itself is based on experience. When your born with a certain "talent", that's because of your past experience. All this has been proven a million times so I'll stop here, yekhpayr.

[hrai]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Out of ALL I said, this is all you could find? lol. you asked for it.

I don't want to go very deep into detail because the point of this thread will be lost in time. One very small example of what I'm saying is a small Armenian boy here in Yerevan that won a talent contest on TV. He could name you every single part of the world (showing it on a map), talk about history, and let you know things you probably don't know and wouldn't know, lol. He was 5 if I'm not mistaken and he won the contest and is now in Disney World with his family (that was his prize)!

Another example is Cole Marcus, a four year old that could beat the drums better then thousands of drummers that have been playing for years. Most drummers get tired after awhile, naturally, because their hands start to hurt, right? Well this kid was FOUR and played as if he had 20 years of experience. Now, what do you call this...TALENT? Lol, this is way beyond that my friend.

The question I think is ... do you believe in life after death or reincarnation which not only the Hindu culture talks about but also the Bible? If you don't then you'll just say this is talent .... real great talent. It's beyond that, Hrai .... way beyond that. These kids were BORN the way they were. They didn't gather their experience as the years went by.

What is the one thing we can take with us after death, Hrai? All that we've learned. Our EXPERIENCE, knowledge, wisdom. NOTHIN MORE, NOTHING LESS. That's why, don't think everything is based on ones talents because talent itself is based on experience. When your born with a certain "talent", that's because of your past experience. All this has been proven a million times so I'll stop here, yekhpayr.

Out of all that previous post, yes.
I'm slightly disappointed as I thought you were going to talk about your reincarnation.
These children you mention....I probably agree with you, only probably because I'm still unsure about reincarnation. An afterlife? I'm a very open book on that, I have a sister who "gets messages" or at least she believes she does. The only way we'll find out is when it's too late!

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I'm slightly disappointed as I thought you were going to talk about your reincarnation.

MY reincarnation? What's there to talk about, yekhpayr? What do you want to specifically know?

What I'm trying to say is that experience is what differentiates people from one another and that what we've learned from the past and not just in this lifetime forms who we are. Our experience not only forms who we are but also decides in what family we are born in our next life, in many respects. Even in the case of marriage, sex, etc. some have more experience then others and they haven't been through it all a hundred times. So if they haven't gone through it all in THIS lifetime, then where does their experience come from? Wisdom and maturity all come from experience so Haykakan is more or less wrong when he says that me and Kanada aren't married and for that reason lack experience and can't know better. I'm not saying we know everything ... we still have so much to learn, the learning never ends ... but that doesn't mean we necessarily lack experience and even if we do, there are many, many people that have that experience and we shouldn't claim that they know what they know only because/if they've physically gone through this or that. That's all I'm saying.

These children you mention....I probably agree with you, only probably because I'm still unsure about reincarnation.

I see. It's pretty obvious though, Hrai, even if you don't know a thing about reincarnation. I would just like to quote something that Cole Marcus said when they asked him how long he's been playing the drums. He said "20 years" without even thinking about it. The kids only four but he says he's been playing for twenty years. What makes you feel awkward though is that he really seemed to have twenty (if not more) years of experience! Now explain that if you can in ANY OTHER WAY other then mine.

An afterlife? I'm a very open book on that, I have a sister who "gets messages" or at least she believes she does. The only way we'll find out is when it's too late!

There are ways to find out before it's "too late" . . . It's never too late, Hrai, even in the case of death which everyone is sooo afraid of. Why? Because it isn't the end. On the contrary, it's simply the beginning of something else!

By the way, I don't mean to barge in or anything, this might sound strange, but could you tell me what messages or kinds of messages your sister gets, what time she gets them, from who (male/female), what language are they, etc. I might be able to help you if you give me the right answers and no this isn't a joke!

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Wisdom and maturity all come from experience so Haykakan is more or less wrong when he says that me and Kanada aren't married and for that reason lack experience and can't know better. I'm not saying we know everything ... we still have so much to learn, the learning never ends ... but that doesn't mean we necessarily lack experience and even if we do, there are many, many people that have that experience and we shouldn't claim that they know what they know only because/if they've physically gone through this or that. That's all I'm saying.

Haykakan isn't completely wrong, sometimes people don't really understand why their parents did what they did until they have children of their own. But that doesn't mean that they have to be your own children, sometimes just having cousins, nieces or nephews around the house will change your own outlook on life in general. I think this is something that is lacking in our generation where the traditional family has been focused on the idea of a couple and not an entire family. So I agree with Kattie's assessment but while she is trying to say that the new world way is the correct way, I'm claiming that the traditional Armenian way is the correct way.

As Anonymouse was pointing out, not only have some women lost the ability to charm men, but they have also lost the ability to be charming in general, handicapping their ability to be a good mother.

So are we inclined to say that every marriage is the same? And it has nothing to do with circumstances like poverty/wealth, lifestyle/choices, surrounding environment? Or can you charm yourself out of every problem?

As far as being born with talent, somethings just come natural... there are things that just can't be explained. Like this 23 month old playing billiards. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xm4EjErEKE Cute

And if you want to talk about "being silenced" here is a newsflash, it's not only the Armenian women who were silenced growing up. Children in general weren't allowed to have a say in matters or "do as they please" or "talk back to their elders". These were all, in my mind excellent parenting skills. Who are you at such a young age to claim you have a voice over the only people that truly love you in this world?

[VartanK]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I think this is a great topic and i applaud Kattie for bringing this subject up.

I agree. I've seen it happen with my nieces who went from lively and playful to extremely serious and almost dull because their parents kept repressing what you call a woman's "natural inclination to charm". It was sad to watch it happen.

In fact, I would go further than you and state that femininity is the lost art of modernity which has been confused and replaced with vulgarity, almost akin to a false idol. In fact, I would say that most women in America (of whatever ethnic origin) and probably Europe, have lost the ability to discern how to woo a man using their gracefulness and serenity, and resort to vulgarity instead.

For example, I live in Southern California and I have seen first hand the "sameness effect" among all stripes of women from all ethnic backgrounds. By the "sameness effect" I mean that all women, more or less, have resorted to the same cheap vulgarity of trying to seduce a man, not by their gracefulness or femininity, but by how much they can cheapen themselves in the process. The one common bond all these women have is the same slutty, materialistic obsession with vanity and self as the only way to seduce and charm.

This phenomenon with which you are concerned is the result of a collision of old and new world values and this is why I have seen many different ethnic girls - whether they're from Latin America, from East Asia, Southeast Asia, etc. - resort to the phenomenon you are describing. In essence, by a drastic exposure to such liberalism as it pertains to gender, sexuality and identity, most people do not have the capacity to "weather the storm" so to speak and thereby process this in a gradual progression. Instead, they are almost immediately imbued with these things, soak it in, and proceed in strides of leaps and bounds. Add to the fact that sexuality is bombarded on them, from every orifice of communication, since birth, then you have what have.

ROFLMAO!
Who would confuse the perceived decay of human values with the oppression of a gender? How sharp is that? Can't you see that Kattie is also talking about you i.e. how you threaten, manipulate, vilify, accuse and silence others when you're out of arguments, and because you have an urge to control?
The funny part is that you presented the obvious confusion with pretense and pomp just like in other threads.

I don't intend to discuss the issue that you've raised, and though I can understand and respect the anachronism in your views and values, I can't understand and respect your "despise" of women. I'm also taking in consideration your post about "sl.uts".

Considering how he feels about women, is it anachronism or obscurantism?

By the way, I prefer hrai's description, because it's more articulate, to the point, gender neutral, complete yet concise. Also, it is void of the "despise" that I see in your post.

I agree

Its true that , understanding and knowing are separated by doing.

True. I would that add one wouldn't be able to assess the huge distance that separates the two until the end of the journey, a journey that takes as much courage to start than to finish.

Because they like being hostile and suspicious.

I have noticed that. But why?

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I agree. I've seen it happen with my nieces who went from lively and playful to extremely serious and almost dull because their parents kept repressing what you call a woman's "natural inclination to charm". It was sad to watch it happen.

And you don't think this has anything to do with the fact that they became TEENAGERS

Maturity has nothing to do with age, wisdom does.

Not necessarily, there are differences between biological maturity and psychological maturity. Some people might be mature with one and not the other and vice versa.

ROFLMAO!
Who would confuse the perceived decay of human values with the oppression of a gender? How sharp is that? Can't you see that Kattie is also talking about you i.e. how you threaten, manipulate, vilify, accuse and silence others when you're out of arguments, and because you have an urge to control?

VartanK, would you like to expand on what it is your sister/brother is doing wrong with their parenting that causes your nieces to to transform from being lively and playful to being serious and dull.

Oppression is generally caused by feeling burdened, additional anxiety from adverse conditions. Just like when you get a new job or you have exams at school, etc. As Armenians we all naturally struggle with racism and trying to fit in and adapt to other cultures. Naturally when children see other children whose parents don't care or are living in single parent homes do things that their own parents wouldn't approve of, they have a sense of not fitting in or feeling different which can cause anxiety.

[Kiffer]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Hrair, I do not travel anymore. If you are still in Trier and come
by Metz I shall be glad to receive you too. I have much to say in
this interesting forum,but I do not speak English as fluently as all of you here. So there are many misunderstanding.
L Kiffer