Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[Anoush]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Thanks Anoush jan!

Vochinch Saco jan!

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I am an old woman, born in France in1925, from armenian parents. We lived in a house of refugees
60 families, all survivors of genocide. All Armenians. When we were children we used to play together,
boys and girls, in the garden behind the house, we were not allowed to go in the street.
But when I was 12, my mother said to me : now you cannot play with boys.
I went to French school. I worked very well at school. As my father died young , I was the eldest and had to work. My aunt did not want her daughters work outside, they had to work at home. I found jobs in offices.
All the Armenian young men of the house married French girls, because they thought we were old minded.
We were half old minded, and half influenced by our French education at school.
One of my French colleague’s was delighted to meet me, as I was serious.
His parents first were disappointed, as they wanted a French daughter –in-law from their town. But they changed quickly their mind when they knew me and my family. My husband always loved me.

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."

Though it used to be that the past was 50 years ago. Now the past becomes "foreign" in less that 20 years.

[meline]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I am an old woman, born in France in1925, from armenian parents. We lived in a house of refugees
60 families, all survivors of genocide. All Armenians. When we were children we used to play together,
boys and girls, in the garden behind the house, we were not allowed to go in the street.
But when I was 12, my mother said to me : now you cannot play with boys.
I went to French school. I worked very well at school. As my father died young , I was the eldest and had to work. My aunt did not want her daughters work outside, they had to work at home. I found jobs in offices.
All the Armenian young men of the house married French girls, because they thought we were old minded.
We were half old minded, and half influenced by our French education at school.
One of my French colleague’s was delighted to meet me, as I was serious.
His parents first were disappointed, as they wanted a French daughter –in-law from their town. But they changed quickly their mind when they knew me and my family. My husband always loved me.

I guess you are the same Kiffer I know from the French forums, so chapeau!!! (bows) !!! And thanks for the post! Like everything else you have written it's clear, unambiguous and sincere! Really happy that you are here!

[Sako]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

For example, I live in Southern California and I have seen first hand the "sameness effect" among all stripes of women from all ethnic backgrounds. By the "sameness effect" I mean that all women, more or less, have resorted to the same cheap vulgarity of trying to seduce a man, not by their gracefulness or femininity, but by how much they can cheapen themselves in the process. The one common bond all these women have is the same xxxxty, materialistic obsession with vanity and self as the only way to seduce and charm.

I agree ... but I don't think most Armenian girls fall under this category! Or do you think differently, Anon?

Oh, and something else, was Kattie talking about Armenian girls just in Glendale or Armenian girls all over the world?

[Gavur]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."

If its not tooo much bother , source for the quotation please?

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

If I may chime in my 24 cents: I don't see why everyone got hostile with Kattie.

Because they like being hostile and suspicious.

I don't disagree with this assessment per se. My quibble is that you somehow try to pigeonhole this phenomenon as only among Armenians. In fact, I would go further than you and state that femininity is the lost art of modernity which has been confused and replaced with vulgarity, almost akin to a false idol. In fact, I would say that most women in America (of whatever ethnic origin) and probably Europe, have lost the ability to discern how to woo a man using their gracefulness and serenity, and resort to vulgarity instead.

For example, I live in Southern California and I have seen first hand the "sameness effect" among all stripes of women from all ethnic backgrounds. By the "sameness effect" I mean that all women, more or less, have resorted to the same cheap vulgarity of trying to seduce a man, not by their gracefulness or femininity, but by how much they can cheapen themselves in the process. The one common bond all these women have is the same slutty, materialistic obsession with vanity and self as the only way to seduce and charm.

This phenomenon with which you are concerned is the result of a collision of old and new world values and this is why I have seen many different ethnic girls - whether they from Latin America, from East Asia, Southeast Asia, etc. - resort to the phenomenon you are describing. In essence, by a drastic exposure to such liberalism as it pertains to gender, sexuality and identity, most people do not have the capacity to "weather the storm" so to speak and thereby process this in a gradual progression. Instead, they are almost immediately imbued with these things, soak it in, and proceed in strides of leaps and bounds. Add to the fact that sexuality is bombarded on them, from every orifice of communication, since birth, then you have what have.

You seem to be saying that the main purpose of a woman is to woo a man (or be wooed by one), and the only thing wrong with that is that they are doing it nowadays in a graceless and overly sexualised way? Maybe Kattie should have been a bit more descriptive in what she meant by "handicapped because of their upbringing" - I thought she meant something broader than just relationships with the opposite sex.

[Kattie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I have never seen this docileness that Kattie claims, granted I have never met many Armenians in real life, but from those I know, none of them seem to be timid or scared litle things

Isn't it funny when an Armenian woman is being told how Armenian women are by someone who has "never met many Armenians in real life"?

If she thinks for one moment Armenian women are docile, she has not encountered iFemale and alot of the girls here, they don't take crap from anyone, especially Mindfreak
The charmer in her definitely is not gone and she most of the girls here wont stand for any silencing on charms (whether they be inner charm or Lucky Charms tm)

Charms and docility do not always go together, there are non-docile females who are masculine and lack charms, and there are outspoken, independent minded females with plenty of charms.

But this is generalization, you cannot base an entire opinion of an ethnicity on one or two people, in addition I know Kattie says she is Armenian, but what she must remember is that in very religious (traditionally) societies, patriarchy is often at the forefront of the day, I can compare Arabs, Japanese, hell even us as many men subscribe to the machismo bs, I know a dude who is Mexican himself and he refuses to let his wife work, as it will "femize" him, he is against abortion, hell even masturbation, in traditionally strictly religious cultures and even in non strictly religious ones, there will always be socially conservative people

I said "not all cultures". I don't consider Arabs as a reference when it come to charms and open mindedness, but I can appreciate the refinements and role of geishas in traditional Japanese culture.

I promise you, got to a Anglo Saxon baptist meeting, a strictly Protestant black family, a strictly Irish Catholic family or a traditional Japanese family and you will see all the same things, domestic abuse and silencing happens in every race and culture

The point is to be aware of it, even in liberal trendy bohemian society, there is abuse I can promise you that, do a scan and see for yourself

First of all, all is relative. Second of all, I said "not all cultures". Most of all, does domestic violence in other cultures justify the situation?

I think it's time I step in. Listen Kattie, first off, I'm a pure Armenian brother born here in Armenia. I've lived in India for ten years, in America for five, and another five here in Armenia so I've met almost every type of person in my life and I understand your confusion and/or way of thinking. I've answered these types of questions on more occasions then I can remember but I'll try to keep this short.

I don't know where you get your views from but their wrong mostly. In certain respects, your right, Armenian women aren't American girls (thank God) but they aren't what you think they are either.

Don't we all love a modest Armo paternalizing us and showing us the right direction? Thank you for "keeping in short".

They aren't oppressed. They simply have boundaries.

So you think that women with charms have no boundaries? You have a real distorted and sad perception of certain aspects of life.

They don't get down with every guy around the block, they don't have hundreds of "boyfriends", they don't dis their families, etc. In America, girls go with the "I'm free, I can do whatever the xxxx I want" way of life and that's why, you can see ten year olds having sex around the corner and then going to school and letting their classmates know how "cool" it felt. Armenian girls have standards. Armenian girls have boundaries. That doesn't make them oppressed. That makes them more appealing, more respectful, and more of a women then a xxxxx. I'm not saying all our girls are perfect, there are women that feel down and are disrespected or don't act right at times but you can see this in every country.

First of all, charming has nothing to do with "getting down with every guy around the block". Second of all, you're understanding of what I've meant is not even close enough.

In general though, Armenian girls are very serious, study very hard (something American girls need to learn how to do), go to parties, and do stuff girls normally do. They don't live in the dark ages. People from abroad come to Yerevan, get married, and leave for crying out loud. Why? Because Hay akhchiku ... AKHCHIKA ... vochte kats.

Many go to Armenia to find a bride with the hope of finding a more obedient woman, not for their charms.

And regarding whether or not Armenian girls are attractive or not. Haha, honey, let me put it this way. Armenian girls were PRIZED in the past and are still very respected (and still prized, believe it or not). They can make any man turn around with one look and I wouldn't trade them for any lass in the world. They are hard working, have great taste when it comes to fashion, keep a family together, set an example for their children, are simply gorgeous, are very loving and emotional, and have very high standards. What's missing??? I can keep goin on and on. Western girls are just ... CHICK's ... compared to our girls.

A woman can be attractive, have a good taste, be well behaved yet lack charms. I'll tell more in my reply to Lucin.

Would you go to a virulent pro-Islamic forum and expect to get a realistic reply about the position of women in Islamic society. Probably not. So be equally realistic about the chances of getting a realistic reply here.

Some are being open minded, but it is true that some have reacted as if I was vilifying Armenian women, when my intent is to remind that Armenian women are being the victims

Within families, sections of diaspora societies tend to be even stricter in their social taboos than in their homelands - some people seem to get more fanatical the more distant they are from the source of their fanaticism - whereas other sections of the very same diaspora will tend to go out of their way to loose the more negative aspects of their culture, while still retaining and cherishing the best bits. In this forum, it is mostly the former type.

I agree. I would simply add that many Armenians have stopped the clock in 1915 as if Armenian values and traditions wouldn't have changed and evolved if the genocide did not happen. Did we lose the right to be part of history because of the genocide?

Nor are there many Armenians from Armenia here, and I don't recall ever seeing any female Armenians from ROA on this forum. But there is plenty of data online about the oppressed status of many women in Armenia (along with plenty about the oppressed status of many Armenians in ROA regardless of their sex).

I have read read several articles that cover the issue.

BTW, I think it was this forum, but I remember one Armenian male poster who got really rabidly angry when he found out that his (Armenian) girlfriend was also posting in the same forum. She was told by her boyfrend not to post any more, and left a message to that effect (or he left it). Anyone remember that incident?

That's sad and I know that it may happen.

[Kattie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Wow I am not sure if I should even start to respond to one of these thread topics again...remembers last year and the muffin postings...BUT man do I want to.

You probably know that this thread is also about the little voice in your head that says: "Soos"

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

First of all, charming has nothing to do with "getting down with every guy around the block". Second of all, you're understanding of what I've meant is not even close enough.

I think Saco is aged 20, btw.

[bell-the-cat]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I agree. I would simply add that many Armenians have stopped the clock in 1915 as if Armenian values and traditions wouldn't have changed and evolved if the genocide did not happen. Did we lose the right to be part of history because of the genocide?

Maybe that is another inevitable effect of the Genocide, and its unresolved (i.e. denied) status.

That phrase Kiffer used, "old minded", is interesting. Though she is using it in a immediate post WW2 context. I remember someone writing something about that, but for the 1930s period, using Michael Arlen's books and life as an example of some Armenian men conciously rejecting the past by refusing to marry Armenian women.