Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

[VartanK]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Oh I see... when somebody gives your closed mind a different point of view or disagrees with you it's called "bickering" and "pulling strings" .... my bad....

No, as I've said when someone does not present alternatives and has no clear train of thought. Let me quote Lucin: "Seriously, can you read? "

a conversation involves a panel of people... not just one person talking to him/herself.

Yes, and that's what some of us are doing.
I see that you're learning from Anonymouse the art of manipulation and accusing others of what YOU do and what YOU don't understand.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

What? Can you explain how it is psychological yet it's neither hormonal nor cultural? What do you understand by hormonal, cultural and psychological?
This is a funny forum.

You can pump estrogen into me and I might start looking like a woman but I'm still going to think like a man. I suppose culture would hold a role since I think more like an Armenian man.

How is it psychological? Let me ask you... can you tell whether I'm male or female just by the way I phrase my words? You probably can.

No, as I've said when someone does not present alternatives and has no clear train of thought. Let me quote Lucin: "Seriously, can you read? "

I can't help it if people are incapable of understanding what other people write. (No offense Lucin, that was more of a misunderstanding which happens a lot when you're not talking face to face with someone) If you find me a bit defensive maybe its because you're insulting my culture!! Something you should be preserving, not destroying.

Yes, and that's what some of us are doing.
I see that you're learning from Anonymouse the art of manipulation and accusing others of what YOU do and what YOU don't understand.

Odd, I take what everybody writes at face value... process it and decide whether or not I agree. If I disagree I spit it out. It's pretty simple.

Don't take me wrong but I learned that it's difficult/impossible to have a productive debate with you. If you want to be taken seriously then you should make effort to respect others. I don't think that you are an ill-willed manipulator and a pretentious charlatan like Anonymouse, but I don't understand why you constantly "bicker and pull strings" as Kattie said. What I mean is that you don't suggest alternatives and I don't see a clear train of thought in your posts.

Really, I wrote:

"Oppression is generally caused by feeling burdened, additional anxiety from adverse conditions. Just like when you get a new job or you have exams at school, etc. As Armenians we all naturally struggle with racism and trying to fit in and adapt to other cultures. Naturally when children see other children whose parents don't care or are living in single parent homes do things that their own parents wouldn't approve of, they have a sense of not fitting in or feeling different which can cause anxiety."

Which part of this statement doesn't express a clear train of thought?

Why would I suggest alternatives in raising OUR children any different than WE have for centuries?

[SMILES]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Hello Everyone,

This is my first post here. I wasn't planning on registering but this is a pretty interesting thread.

First off, I don't want to waste response space but I just had to say that I really love the spirit you guys have in regards to Armenians and how you guys have such great long discussions about these important topics.

BUT I also want to mention that it would probably be better to respond to the actual topic instead of quoting bits of people's posts and ripping eachother apart for grammatical errors or for someone not putting a sentence together perfectly. After all, I'm hoping these posts are so we can come to a conclusion and not to prove who is "the most correct" or who can "prove a point."

I apologize for not having read all 18+ pages of this post but I'm going to respond to what I believe is the issue at hand...

I think that Kattie brought up a very important issue, and I do believe it is an issue regardless of how defensive people may get over it. I've personally witnessed many different Armenian subgroups interacting in their worlds and from one to the next is entirely different.

Armenian women are oppressed to a certain degree, maybe not when comparing with a different culture because seriously, MUSLIMS? But relatively speaking if you compare a typical Armenian (let me define "typical Armenian;" been in America for up to 20 years, for argument's sake) with Armenians who have been here longer, you see the differences in a big way. The differences almost make me uncomfortable when I go to events with these "typicals."

Going to post a few questions for you guys to think about...

Ever noticed how segregated the events are? Men on one side and women on the other? Why? Once I get an answer to this I'll post what I've heard from people I've asked...

Why do men go to Yerevan to bring back brides? I'm not passing judgement at all, I really want to know WHY. What reason do they have to go to a different country when there are so many Armenian women in the U.S?

I really feel like our culture puts a lot of pressure on both the men and women that try to make lives in the U.S., because face it, the men are raised to be "breadwinners" but realize that in this country it's difficult to keep a family with one paycheck.

At the same time, society is so overly sexualized that a lot of women MAY feel torn apart that from their family they are hearing that not even an ounce of sexuality is appropriate, while when they go to school/work they get flooded with sexualized images. Way to mess with peoples heads.

And please, do NOT tell me that Armenian men don't beat their wives. I don't know an appropriate percentage because Armenians are notorious for keeping things on the "down-low," but seriously. Just because they walk into a room with smiles doesn't mean they weren't at eachother's throats 5 min. ago.

I personally know that many of these women are in fact oppressed. They are told by their fathers/boyfriends/husbands what to wear, what to say, how to act, how much makeup to put on, what to learn in school, etc. etc. And a lot of times when they don't "act appropriately" they face the consequences for their actions.

In theory, this is all great because it gives more value to Armenian women because they are "raised well" and are "pure," but these standards seem to be more forced than anything. That's where it gets nasty.

Just throwing some ideas out there. I'm not b/s-ing I've seen all of this stuff myself, this isn't hearsay. Let me know what you think.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Why do men go to Yerevan to bring back brides? I'm not passing judgement at all, I really want to know WHY. What reason do they have to go to a different country when there are so many Armenian women in the U.S?

I believe Lenny Kravitz said it best "American woman, stay away from me."

I really feel like our culture puts a lot of pressure on both the men and women that try to make lives in the U.S., because face it, the men are raised to be "breadwinners" but realize that in this country it's difficult to keep a family with one paycheck.

Right now, it's difficult with 3 paychecks. Realize that Armenian men are already at a disadvantage in America where all the good, high paying jobs are handed down generation to generation by Americans in the good "ole" white boys clubs.

At the same time, society is so overly sexualized that a lot of women MAY feel torn apart that from their family they are hearing that not even an ounce of sexuality is appropriate, while when they go to school/work they get flooded with sexualized images. Way to mess with peoples heads.

The whole world is kinda screwed here. Too late to fix matters now. I don't know where you work but I have a feeling I'd enjoy the environment If you're getting flooded with images at school where you're supposed to be receiving an education... I guess parents are already at a great disadvantage.

And please, do NOT tell me that Armenian men don't beat their wives. I don't know an appropriate percentage because Armenians are notorious for keeping things on the "down-low," but seriously. Just because they walk into a room with smiles doesn't mean they weren't at eachother's throats 5 min. ago.

Not sure how to comment on this one since abuse isn't related to ethnicity. I'm not sure where they pick up this behaviour.... although verbal abuse maybe common on both ends, it takes a real wimp to hit a woman.

I personally know that many of these women are in fact oppressed. They are told by their fathers/boyfriends/husbands what to wear, what to say, how to act, how much makeup to put on, what to learn in school, etc. etc. And a lot of times when they don't "act appropriately" they face the consequences for their actions.

Strange.... most western Armenian men are told what to wear by their wives. My father couldn't dress himself if his life depended on it The women usually know how to dress and act, after all it's up to them to maintain culture.

In theory, this is all great because it gives more value to Armenian women because they are "raised well" and are "pure," but these standards seem to be more forced than anything. That's where it gets nasty.

It shouldn't be forced, it should come natural... but there are other forces and influences at play.

Just throwing some ideas out there. I'm not b/s-ing I've seen all of this stuff myself, this isn't hearsay. Let me know what you think.

I enjoyed reading your post. Thanks.

[retro]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I'm sick of these threads that try to put our Armenian women under corrupt western values. No! Armenian women should remain under Armenian, family culture, not some stupid American culture (if you can call it culture). If armenian women follow under American culture they turn into kim kardashian and I think you know what happens then.

The kim kardashian's of this world are only temporal and not only are they execrated but quite rightly ostracised from all forms of decent society.

Armenian women would do well to preserve both there peoples honour and cultural identity. Your right about the west it has been largely subverted by various malevolent forces and it's self obsessed, dysfunctional, decadent, mass mindedness is on no level to be emulated.

[Pedro Xaramillo]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Hmmm.... I agree with you here. Although I think America (through pop culture) and Europe (through fashion and modeling) are perverting the beauty of the female body. But that's for an entirely different topic. As far as Afghanistan, Pakistan, etc. go... civility is something that has to develop slowly through society. Going from one extreme to the next through intervention by other cultures (Americ....cough) is like taking an ape, dressing it up in clothes and calling it a man. The men in these cultures have been so used to their way of life (not by their own choice, it's the way that they have been raised to perceive society) that by another culture coming in and interfering is what causes the men to go "ape". This is the point I've been trying to make, our Armenian culture isn't repressive.... its tasteful, it develops self esteem and security for the woman. However, that's only if they are RESPECTED by the men. Unfortunately, being exposed to other demeaning cultures, some of our men have lost this respect and have lowered themselves to the mentality of apes. I don't know how else to express my point of view. Imagine submersing yourself in luke-warm water and slowly turning up the temperature, you would slowly adapt to the change in your environment. Now, if you were to jump right into scolding hot water, there would be an instant shock to your system. I think this is what they call culture shock.



My best friend growing up was Irish, his father was Catholic, and his mother was Protestant... and no they weren't trying to kill each other



This model of behavior would work if everyone was classless and lived on the same social-economic level. I'm not sure which society you live in

And I don't see how you can learn to love when you've already admitted it doesn't exist.

The War has nothing to do with Prods vs Catholics, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmPbC...eature=related

And I never said I dont believe in love???

[Kiffer]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

I’ll make you laugh, I’m a very old woman, born in Paris with Armenian parents. My grand-mother criticized the French girls and women who wore bra. She found that indecent. When I was 14 years old, she sewed for me a kind of cloth corset to tighten my bust. I did not keep it a very long time.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

The War has nothing to do with Prods vs Catholics, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmPbC...eature=related

And I never said I dont believe in love???

I know the war has nothing to do with the Prods vs Catholics, but the media spins it in that direction.... as usual it's England and 007 sticking their nose where it doesn't belong.

I’ll make you laugh, I’m a very old woman, born in Paris with Armenian parents. My grand-mother criticized the French girls and women who wore bra. She found that indecent. When I was 14 years old, she sewed for me a kind of cloth corset to tighten my bust. I did not keep it a very long time.

Not sure if I'm alone on this but I'll throw it out there for the guys. I think those old style corsets in my opinion look a lot better.... they give that hourglass appearance and make cleavage more defining. Ou la la. Especially those old bar maid outfits

Thanks for the laugh Kiffer . I believe fashion dictates what is popular and what society perceives as being attractive. There is no such thing as old fashioned because old things become new and new things become old.... its just a matter of time. If a couple hollywood stars began wearing corsets... guess what... it would become popular again.

[Wowie]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Obviously not all women fall into that category I describe, but many do. Those that don't are the rarities of rarities.

In my insignificant life, having been raised in a very traditional and by modern standards ("old world") Armenian family with "old world" Armenian values, I find that most women with whom I interact with I could never have a serious relationship for precisely those reasons. The sad part is, many of the Armenian women are what I am referring too. If I ask myself: "Can I see this woman as being a wife?" or "Do I see her as being a mother?" My answer to both questions is a negative.

I often find myself in the same circumstances concerning todays Armenian men and friends in general. It is a truly unfortunate trend that has become increasingly widespread among the youth and future generations. Coming across a gentleman with the "old world" Armenian values in which i was raised with dwindles with time, as if trying to find a needle within a haystack.

[NightOwl]

Re: Are Armenian women handicapped because of their upbringing?

Greeks, Italians, and Hispanics have "old world values" too