Our Identity

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

I'll answer to you tomorrow Arm.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

To be honest, you make way too long posts full of the same misunderstandings often times that I do not have the time to go through all of them…

And you think I have all the time in the world to go through all of your misunderstandings? But I do...

Talking about arrogance, you come to mind real quick… you often times tend to turn the conversation into a monologue without making the slightest effort to understand better your interlocutor, like the post you just made…

I make every effort to understand and even IF and that's a big if I misunderstood you, that doesn't mean I'm arrogant. Just remember how you used to talk to me before and then you'll see who's arrogant and who's right...

First of all, we are neither talking about Modern Armenian nor the Ancient classic Armenian (known as grapar which is being used mainly in our sharakans) second of all, by saying Mesropian, we're talking about the alphabet invented by Mesrop Mashtots and its orthography and not how Mashtots spoke Armenian at his time.

Even in that case your wrong. Why? Because then we shouldn't be using the last three letters of our alphabet. They aren't Mesrop's letter's. You are against yev and if you are then you automatically have to be against O and F. They are also new letters and have nothing whatsoever to do with Mesrop. I want you to understand that every change is not bad/wrong.

Third of all, our grand fathers did not exactly opt for such a 'change' but rather it was imposed on them so it isn't exactly a 'natural evolution' our language went through, it is more or less like how you describe; they just woke up one day and decided to distort...

Wrong. Let's say your right in the case of the last century. Your still wrong though because BEFORE that, everything happened pretty much naturally. So even our grapar went through evolution.

I don't consider Modern Armenian as a distortion because the Armenian we spoke before that was ALSO distorted. You don't understand me correctly. I'm saying that after MM, Armenian started to change so till today, Armenia has gone through a lot of changes and I'm not against Modern Armenian at all even IF it didn't evolve naturally. Sometimes you need to do something manually to evolve. Not everything happens naturally and I don't think everything happened naturally before that either.

fourth; unlike people like you our grammarians in Armenia are well aware of such a lacuna in our alphabetic spelling system.

I am also aware but like them, I don't think we have 38 letters. We have 39 and for a good reason and we teach it in our schools year after year after year. Period.

I already suggested you read the late Hrachia Ajarian's articles and works on this issue who is a prominent contemporary Hayastantsi linguist/ grammarian.

You shouldn't base your views only on his works...

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Our Identity

Your wrong ! In certain respects, your right. Yev is just two letters stuck together but there is a reason we have that letter. There is a reason our leaders aren't changing that. Like I said, you need to look deeper into Armenian grammer to understand why this letter is being used till now. And it isn't the equivalent of t and h being slapped together. I doubt our grandfathers just woke up one day and decided to create a useless letter, lol.

Can you please tell me how the letter "եւ" changes the meaning and/or pronunciation of a word which makes it different from using "ե" and "ւ" together?

And I can speak for India, Armenia and a few other places out there ! If your learning western Armenian then I doubt you'll learn the 39th letter of our alphabet but eastern Armenian schools do teach them. I have the books to prove it, lol.

You're probably right. But that means these schools don't teach Mesrobian rules, they teach Bolshevik rules.

Hm, I'm starting to see what you mean. But I think this is more complicated then we think. You know why? Because if we don't somehow strenghten the Diaspora ... we will never be strenghtened. So bottom line is, we need a golden balance. We should have say 5 million Armenians here in Armenia ... and another five out there in the Diaspora ... not 7-8 million out there and just 2.5 - 3 million here. With most of the Armenians out there, we have no choice but to somehow educate them and/or keep them informed about they're own country and who they are. To do that, you have to spend money and really make an effort and I don't see that as a fruitless effort. If that's fruitless then you can already consider the fact that you've lost more then 50% of the Armenian populace. I'm afraid I don't give up that easily though and can't live with the fact that we're forgetting our Armenians out there. You say we shouldn't ignore them but our actions say more then our posts. We are doing just that. By only strenghtening Armenia which we CAN'T DO without the Diaspora (forget about that happening) we will lose LOT's and LOT'S of Armenians. Your right, we don't need to build churches. We need to build schools, we need to get Armenians more involved, etc. We have tons of churches and very few Armeninans who actually visit them. So what's the point of building them? It's like building a school but having no students learn in them.

Sure. In short, the diaspora can take care of itself. Whether they want to pass down their Armenian heritage is their own prerogative. Those who want to stay Armenian, will. Sure, there should be basic things like schools, cultural centers and some churches. Thats because the people who want to stay Armenian in the diaspora need the resources to do that. I'm all for it.

Payts chap oo sahman gah. The diaspora doesn't need any more incentive to be involved in Armenian affairs, they are Armenians and should take the initiative of getting involved. Their only job as the diaspora is not to ensure their own survival, but to strengthen the homeland. If the homeland does not raise good Armenians, not only does our homeland itself suffer, but the future diaspora is also in trouble because it will have quicker assimilation rates than it already does. So its suicide for us not to concentrate all our resources towards the Republic of Armenia.

And the population disparity you're talking about between Armenia and the diaspora is exactly the result of not putting enough resources into Armenia itself. I couldn't think of a better example than the one you provided.

Thousands of miles away ? Are you kidding me? Yekhpayr, we live in the age of the internet, satelite tv, and computers. No one is a thousand miles away any longer. This isn't the 1700's when people had to travel by ships. You can travel with a mouse click nowadays! Most Armenians have learned those English words by surfing the net, chatting, entering social networks, etc. believe it or not. But still, English isn't used regularly like Russian.

English isn't used as a seperate language as much as Russian, but English words are widely used, more or less on the same scale as Russian words.

Before, my problem in understanding Hayastancis' lingo would be because they would mix Russian with their speech. Now, my main problem in understanding them is when they mix Latin terms with a Russian accent. I hardly ever hear Russian words in their speech. Again, I don't live there and I'm not surrounded by it everyday like you are, but those are my (limited) observations, and my observations of Armenians here that are fresh out of Armenia.

Here's an example: A Museum Guide (a relative of ours) that was showing us around talked in Armenian and when we asked her to start talking in English because she knew the language pretty well ... she started laughing from time to time. It was almost embarrassing for her, lol. Its not just her, there are thousands that laugh when you or they speak English. Look at it this way. I never talk English in front of my Armenian friends. And I speak clear and proper English. It's not like I talk funny or something. It's simply funny for many Armenians and is considered by many others as showing off.

If you put a Russian accent on your English words you would probably be taken more seriously. Really, its the բրոֆեցիոնալ way to do it

But really, I have a question... Why isn't it considered "showing off" when someone says a sentence in Armenian in which half the words have a Latin origin? If people started laughing at this, instead of laughing at the English language as a whole, maybe it would discourage people from mixing foreign terms into our language which will only diminish the knowledge of our mother tongue. I think we should start this trend... and you're the man to start it, Saco

There are many such people but most know that they aren't talking Armenian. Our people aren't that backwards. Actually, it's not very hard to tell that Latin and Russian words aren't Armenian. Many know that the words that come out of their mouth aren't Armenian but neither do they know the Armenian equivalents of those words. We need to change that.

What you described is a best-case scenario... some people really do think that certain Turkish or Russian words are Armenian (mostly those with little or no education). But I agree, even in the best-case scenario, things need to change.

The problem is, your forgetting that YEV, O and F were added into our list of letters in the last century so we'll have to ditch them!

Thats not true. O and F were added into the alphabet by the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia around 800 years ago. Those additions were a natural evolution of our alphabet, from having come into greater contact with Italian merchants on the Cilician coast.

"YEV" has not even been used for a century, and I have to agree with Lucin on this, it was the decision not of an independent Armenia, but of an Armenia dominated and bullied by Judeo-Bolsheviks. It was neither a natural evolution, because there were no natural conditions which would prompt the creation of such a letter, just the fact that some Bolsheviks had a fetish of changing aspects of our culture. Like how they took Jesus from us and gave us Marx and Lenin. Like how they herded and relocated people like cattle. Like how they created fictitious countries like Azerbaijan. Controlling populations and making changes to ancient cultures is a Judeo-Bolshevik fetish, and we would be better off as a people if we discarded any remnants of their perversities. Just my opinion.

[Lucin]

Re: Our Identity

So, you decided to reply to me for once, huh?

To be honest, you make way too long posts full of the same misunderstandings often times that I do not have the time to go through all of them…

And what makes you think Mrs. Lucin that I don't know much? Or has your arrogance and feminine ways simply reached it's zenith?

Talking about arrogance, you come to mind real quick… you often times tend to turn the conversation into a monologue without making the slightest effort to understand better your interlocutor, like the post you just made…

Modern Armenian isn't something "wrong". It's not a mistake. If we think in this manner then we aren't Christians! Why? Because our forefathers had their culture and religions and lived happily for over 3-4000 years. Then suddenly everything changed. Now was that a mistake?

Modern Armenian is different but it's not necessarily wrong. In many respects, it's more clear, concise and understandable then the Armenian we spoke hundreds of years ago. I saw an Armenian on TV, a Genocide survivor actually. If you heard his Armenian, you wouldn't be able to even guess he was Armenian. According to him, he was the real Armenian and kept speaking ancient Armenian. I think that's good but a bit backwards if you don't mind me saying so. Time moves on and changes take place and not all of them are bad. I find the Armenian we speak today to be more beautiful and understandable, especially for people from other countries, in many ways then ancient Armenian. I'm telling you, the host of the show was having a hard time understanding him, lol, and that Armenian wasn't exactly very beautiful (subtitles were used to allow Armenians to understand what the man was saying). That doesn't mean I hate the Armenian language that we've used in the past. I love it but don't think we should live by the past. And believe it or not, I doubt anyone can talk the same Armenian that Mesrop Mashtots spoke. Throughout the centuries, our language went through many changes and was refined. So you can't even know what Armenian was like in the beginning completely.

Our grandfathers weren't stupid. They didn't just wake up one day and decide to create the Modern Armenian language.



I doubt it will. And like I said, yev isn't just a couple of letters slapped together. As you can see, YEV isn't used in every sentence. If it was just a handy letter, people would use it all the damn time. But it's not. It's used only in special cases. You have to know grammer to understand that. So I think YOU should stop talking about what you don't much about, Lucin, instead of trying to find something wrong in all my posts and replying only when you THINK I've made a mistake.



I didn't say all of them do!



I just might, actually. I'm not saying the Soviet era didn't change a lot of things but not all those changes were bad. And neither you nor anyone else here can prove me wrong. Why? Because if YEV was a mistake, it wouldn't exist today. Everyday, our grammarians deal with these issues, creating new words, etc. and they haven't removed YEV from our list of letters so why should I? To be FRANK, I see yev as a very useful letter and I use it from time to time and see the difference between YEV and the yev you guys are talking about. And until this letter is removed by our grammarians, I'm going to keep using it.

Bottom line is actually, you know what, your right. Let's stick to Ancient Armenian. The problem is, your forgetting that YEV, O and F were added into our list of letters in the last century so we'll have to ditch them! So everyone, from now on, we have 36 letters because Mesrop Mashtots didn't come up with the last three letters...

First of all, we are neither talking about Modern Armenian nor the Ancient classic Armenian (known as grapar which is being used mainly in our sharakans) second of all, by saying Mesropian, we're talking about the alphabet invented by Mesrop Mashtots and its orthography and not how Mashtots spoke Armenian at his time. Third of all, our grand fathers did not exactly opt for such a 'change' but rather it was imposed on them so it isn't exactly a 'natural evolution' our language went through, it is more or less like how you describe; they just woke up one day and decided to distort... fourth; unlike people like you our grammarians in Armenia are well aware of such a lacuna in our alphabetic spelling system. I already suggested you read the late Hrachia Ajarian's articles and works on this issue who is a prominent contemporary Hayastantsi linguist/ grammarian.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

So, you decided to reply to me for once, huh?

Why do you stubbornly insist on something that you don't know much?

And what makes you think Mrs. Lucin that I don't know much? Or has your arrogance and feminine ways simply reached it's zenith?

We all know what you are being taught in Armenia but it does not necessarily have to correspond to the truth. It's not an eastern, western thing. It's about one language; the Armenian language which should have one unique and correct orthography. It was after the distortion of the Armenian alphabet by the soviet authorities that 'եւ' appeared as a separate letter in the Armenian alphabet, among some other nonsensical changes such as the transformation of the usages of certain letters like: յ /ե (յետոյ/ հետո), օ/ո(Կարօ/ Կարո), է /ե(ամէն/ ամեն), ւ /վ(արծիւ/ արծիվ).

Modern Armenian isn't something "wrong". It's not a mistake. If we think in this manner then we aren't Christians! Why? Because our forefathers had their culture and religions and lived happily for over 3-4000 years. Then suddenly everything changed. Now was that a mistake?

Modern Armenian is different but it's not necessarily wrong. In many respects, it's more clear, concise and understandable then the Armenian we spoke hundreds of years ago. I saw an Armenian on TV, a Genocide survivor actually. If you heard his Armenian, you wouldn't be able to even guess he was Armenian. According to him, he was the real Armenian and kept speaking ancient Armenian. I think that's good but a bit backwards if you don't mind me saying so. Time moves on and changes take place and not all of them are bad. I find the Armenian we speak today to be more beautiful and understandable, especially for people from other countries, in many ways then ancient Armenian. I'm telling you, the host of the show was having a hard time understanding him, lol, and that Armenian wasn't exactly very beautiful (subtitles were used to allow Armenians to understand what the man was saying). That doesn't mean I hate the Armenian language that we've used in the past. I love it but don't think we should live by the past. And believe it or not, I doubt anyone can talk the same Armenian that Mesrop Mashtots spoke. Throughout the centuries, our language went through many changes and was refined. So you can't even know what Armenian was like in the beginning completely.

Our grandfathers weren't stupid. They didn't just wake up one day and decide to create the Modern Armenian language.

Let's hope someday, it will switch back to its original, accurate version.

I doubt it will. And like I said, yev isn't just a couple of letters slapped together. As you can see, YEV isn't used in every sentence. If it was just a handy letter, people would use it all the damn time. But it's not. It's used only in special cases. You have to know grammer to understand that. So I think YOU should stop talking about what you don't much about, Lucin, instead of trying to find something wrong in all my posts and replying only when you THINK I've made a mistake.

All Eastern Armenian schools do not teach that I have the books to prove it.

I didn't say all of them do!

Once you comprehend that the Mesropian alphabet has been simplified and distorted in Armenia within the last century by the Soviets then you'll realize what is being taught in schools in Diaspora (western or eastern) is true to its origin; the Mesropian orthography. Just read Hrachia Ajarain, our greatest linguist/ grammarian on the matter who happens to be a Hayastantsi...

I just might, actually. I'm not saying the Soviet era didn't change a lot of things but not all those changes were bad. And neither you nor anyone else here can prove me wrong. Why? Because if YEV was a mistake, it wouldn't exist today. Everyday, our grammarians deal with these issues, creating new words, etc. and they haven't removed YEV from our list of letters so why should I? To be FRANK, I see yev as a very useful letter and I use it from time to time and see the difference between YEV and the yev you guys are talking about. And until this letter is removed by our grammarians, I'm going to keep using it.

Bottom line is actually, you know what, your right. Let's stick to Ancient Armenian. The problem is, your forgetting that YEV, O and F were added into our list of letters in the last century so we'll have to ditch them! So everyone, from now on, we have 36 letters because Mesrop Mashtots didn't come up with the last three letters...

[KanadaHye]

Re: Our Identity

Chalk one up for Lucin here...

[Lucin]

Re: Our Identity

Your wrong ! In certain respects, your right. Yev is just two letters stuck together but there is a reason we have that letter. There is a reason our leaders aren't changing that. Like I said, you need to look deeper into Armenian grammer to understand why this letter is being used till now. And it isn't the equivalent of t and h being slapped together. I doubt our grandfathers just woke up one day and decided to create a useless letter, lol.

Why do you stubbornly insist on something that you don't know much? We all know what you are being taught in Armenia but it does not necessarily have to correspond to the truth. It's not an eastern, western thing. It's about one language; the Armenian language which should have one unique and correct orthography. It was after the distortion of the Armenian alphabet by the soviet authorities that 'եւ' appeared as a separate letter in the Armenian alphabet, among some other nonsensical changes such as the transformation of the usages of certain letters like: յ /ե (յետոյ/ հետո), օ/ո(Կարօ/ Կարո), է /ե(ամէն/ ամեն), ւ /վ(արծիւ/ արծիվ).

Let's hope someday, it will switch back to its original, accurate version.

And I can speak for India, Armenia and a few other places out there ! If your learning western Armenian then I doubt you'll learn the 39th letter of our alphabet but eastern Armenian schools do teach them. I have the books to prove it, lol.

All Eastern Armenian schools do not teach that I have the books to prove it. Once you comprehend that the Mesropian alphabet has been simplified and distorted in Armenia within the last century by the Soviets then you'll realize what is being taught in schools in Diaspora (western or eastern) is true to its origin; the Mesropian orthography. Just read Hrachia Ajarain, our greatest linguist/ grammarian on the matter who happens to be a Hayastantsi...

[retro]

Re: Our Identity

As long as Armenia remains in its current state, it will just be a continuous breeding ground for the diaspora of the future. It needs to be more than a tourist attraction. The reason why it thrived under communism was due to industry. But no worries, the majority of the middle class in the world isn't too far behind in joining the ranks of the impoverished.


"The ideal of a single civilization for everyone implicit in the cult of progress and technique, impoverishes and mutilates us. Every view of the world that becomes extinct, every culture that disappears, diminishes a possibility of life."

Culture, growth, wealth and freedom go hand in hand. I think we have an idea of what we need Armenia to be... the question is how do the people achieve those goals with so many barriers aka. government.

I think that the Armenian community really needs to lobby the budget European carriers, such to open up direct flights to Armenia.

No small part of the problem that Armenia is currently to expensive to fly to from Western Europe and that no budget European carriers currently fly there.

Armenia's alliance with Russia is not the problem it disconnection from Europe is. As Armenia obviously need to create a climate that facilitates foreign investment and trade.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

So I guess we'll just have to live with that. To tell you the truth, I love using the letter "yev". When you start using it, you'll see how handy it is Arm. and why it's considered a letter. It's not just two letters slapped together.

[KarotheGreat]

Re: Our Identity

Saco is right in Hayastan they teach եւ as a letter and I got proof of that.