Our Identity

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

some common simple words that come readily to my mind are client (կլիէնտ), killer (կիլլեռ), effect (էֆեկտ), criminal (կռիմինալ), impulsive (իմպուլսիւ) and many more… lol, the pronunciation is quite funny.

This is what your talking about??? Some of the words you mentioned are used in Russian as well like the word criminal, client, etc. So again, it's the Russian that's spoiled the people although naturally, English words can be also heard from time to time. I don't see that as harmful though because I don't see English signs in schools, colleges, etc. Almost all of them are in Russian. That's something we should be working against. A few English words in an Armenians vocabulary isn't going to ruin this nation but tons of Russians words truly will! It already has, actually.

The person Arm described and Armenians similar to him can't be seen too often in Yerevan. That's something rare and I don't think he was raised here. Let me know if he was, Arm.

You asked where Armenian schools were built, I answered. The blame is on the Armenian communities for putting more emphasis on their fancy cars and their mini mansions than the preservation of our culture in their communities. Emphasis on education is lacking, and that's where it all starts.

Good call, K. What some don't understand and really have a rough time understanding is that we can't ignore the Armenians out there in the Diaspora. Armenia is in no position to ignore them. It's like living without your hands or legs, I don't know how else to put it. The majority of Armenians are outside and it is unacceptable to say that we should just perserve our culture here and almost completely ignore everyone outside. Ignoring them means losing 50-60% of our people and I don't know what kind of a person could degrade them in such a way. Only a fool would ask me to give up on the Armenians out there. That's the kind of attitude that has led us to this current state...

[KanadaHye]

Re: Our Identity

That's all in Diaspora… I have already explained why it's futile in the long run. The efficiency of such programs is just temporary, at best it will only hinder the assimilation nothing more…

You asked where Armenian schools were built, I answered. The blame is on the Armenian communities for putting more emphasis on their fancy cars and their mini mansions than the preservation of our culture in their communities. Emphasis on education is lacking, and that's where it all starts.

[Lucin]

Re: Our Identity

While I don't agree much with your example...

Where don't you agree with my example? I think the language example is one of the best illustrating our inferiority complex towards some other widespread commonly used languages which are not necessarily any perfect or eloquent...

I completely agree with your underlying message. Namely, that many Armenians, in the back of their heads, assume that the status quo "dominant" cultures are more "advanced" than the Armenian civilization, and that Armenians can only learn from odars, and that they have nothing "useful" to learn from us. Personally, I have dealt with and heard of many Armenians who are, for all intents and purposes, odaramols. Don't get me wrong, I also dislike the mentality which is the opposite of what I just described. But at least with that mentality, we are not kneeling at someone else's altar.

Optimally, we should seek to strike a balance, one in which Armenians see themselves as equals of any of the "dominant" cultures.

Yes I think we should reach a point of self-esteem and self-assurance (in a positive way) in our collective psyche where ideally speaking we neither get overjoyed if someone (an odar) mentions the name Armenia (or anything related to it) nor should we fall into the other extreme by raising ourselves into indifference...

But Lucin also touches on an important point in regards to the use of English, which I would not have realized if I didn't visit Armenia for the 3rd time just a couple of years ago. Maybe you can give us some insight on this, since you live in Hayastan. I'm not sure if this is exactly what Lucin was referring to, but this is my personal story. During this last trip I met someone who was born and raised in Hayastan, he was around my age (early 20s) and we spent a few days together... I'm not exaggerating, 3/4 of his verbal communication with me was in English. Half of the time, he was talking to me in English and I was answering him back in Armenian. Is this person an exception to the rule, or is he representative of a new minority that is gradually picking up momentum?

No, it is not an exception. It's not just me and you.
Personally, I have seen numerous cases among the youngsters and the middle-aged people as well… I tell you the amount of English words used in their daily conversations is not less than Russian… but some choose to ignore it and pass it off as learning an international language… some common simple words that come readily to my mind are client (կլիէնտ), killer (կիլլեռ), effect (էֆեկտ), criminal (կռիմինալ), impulsive (իմպուլսիւ) and many more… lol, the pronunciation is quite funny.

You sound a lot like bellthecat here.... hmmmm...

I think someone attributing the origin of Atrpatakan to "Armenian propaganda" would sound much more like bell-the-cat…

more likely they were looking at her picture, her age, that she was female and naturally willing to be helpful like the gentlemen that we are

Look, when did I say we should not be helpful? I would be the first to help anyone willing to learn Armenian, if I can. That's admirable. Like I said to ArmSurvival; we should reach a point of self-esteem and self-assurance (in a positive way) in our collective psyche where ideally speaking we neither get overjoyed if someone (an odar) mentions the name Armenia (or anything related to it) nor should we fall into the other extreme by raising ourselves into indifference. No need to focus on this one example, I can point out to many more...

Here is a mission statement from the AGBU

· We believe all children can and will learn in an effective school environment.

· We will maintain high expectations and promote academic excellence for all students.

· We will create and support a school culture in which all children feel welcomed, respected, valued, trusted, motivated, and an important part of the school.

· We will provide a safe, nurturing environment and work with children to help them develop reliable study habits for academic success and as life-long learners.

· We will highlight the importance of social skills and moral values and provide guidance for their application in real life situations.

· We will generate an environment where we can learn together and assist each other in all situations, at all times.

· We will encourage a positive school climate of a caring community which respects and values diversity and nurtures everyone's self esteem.

· We will prepare students to become active participants in our democratic and pluralistic society.

· We will foster the Armenian identity of students through the Armenian curriculum.

I think they are failing miserably in a lot of instances... or more likely Armenians are choosing not to learn.


Taking a look at the world map, I didn't even know there were this many AGBU's in the world.

http://www.agbu.org/directory/default.asp

That's all in Diaspora… I have already explained why it's futile in the long run. The efficiency of such programs is just temporary, at best it will only hinder the assimilation nothing more…

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

"Եւ" is not a letter, its a word.

It's a letter and it's taught in all the schools here in Armenia and all the schools I've been to abroad. Here's what it looks like և yekhpayr

Optimally, we should seek to strike a balance, one in which Armenians see themselves as equals of any of the "dominant" cultures.

And WE CAN DO THAT! Our nation has accomplished more then many nations have throughout history. Armenians have every reason to stand with their heads up high and it's simply embarrassing when you see how many of them dis our nation. They judge the book by it's cover. That's all I can see.

I agree, but you have to remember that every prosperous diaspora community will eventually die out. This is the end result, which I think Lucin was alluding to in one of her posts. So instead of using resources to bolster diasporan communities, we should use these resources to strengthen Armenia's national foundations. This is because an independent Armenia is the only place that is gauranteed to preserve our civilization.

In that sense, yes, but you're forgetting that we owe a lot that Armenia has today to thousands of Diasporans that didn't forget their nation. It's a ying/yang ordeal. We have to balance everything out. The Diasporans need to become more aware and the Armenians here in Armenia need to support them and most importantly our country itself. You thought Diasporans ignoring their nation was bad, lol. There are Armenians here that don't give a damn if this country existed at all. They'd it if they knew they could get lot's of money. To tell you the truth, I'm more upset at Armenians here in Armenia then Armenians out there in the world because they LIVE here and ignore everything. They don't do anything to help our nation. Diasporans are going through a lot and many don't know much about Armenia so you can't blame them too much but the Armenians here are a completely different story.

Bottom line is, we're not balanced and that's a big problem. The Armenians here have to help the Diasporans remember who they are and the Diasporans need to help our nation prosper and remind us what's going on. Many Armenians here don't know, trust me. Many Diasporans have better knowledge in many respects when it comes down to politics, etc.

What I'm saying all this time basically is that we shouldn't divide the people. We aren't Indians, Americans, etc. ... we're all Armenians ... and what happens to Diasporans has to matter to Armenians here and what happens to Armenians here has to always mean a lot to Diasporans. Period.

But Saco, I agree with basically everything you said in your initial post. I encourage Armenians to broaden their horizons by learning more languages, and if this includes Russian, I have no problem with it. But this learning of other languages needs to be done after the person knows the mechanics and grammar of their mother tongue, the Armenian language. It is one thing to use Arabic, Latin or Turkish words when speaking Armenian (like I do at times) while knowing that those words are from different languages. I also know the Armenian equivalents to over 90% of those words. However, my experiences in Armenia have shown me that many people actually believe that some of those Russian, Turkish or Latin words are part of the Armenian langauge. This is the fault of, as you said, the educational institutions, and in some respects it shows how the grasp of our own language has decayed in the homeland, which theoretically should be at the forefront in this field.

You understood me perfectly my friend.

But Lucin also touches on an important point in regards to the use of English, which I would not have realized if I didn't visit Armenia for the 3rd time just a couple of years ago. Maybe you can give us some insight on this, since you live in Hayastan. I'm not sure if this is exactly what Lucin was referring to, but this is my personal story. During this last trip I met someone who was born and raised in Hayastan, he was around my age (early 20s) and we spent a few days together... I'm not exaggerating, 3/4 of his verbal communication with me was in English. Half of the time, he was talking to me in English and I was answering him back in Armenian. Is this person an exception to the rule, or is he representative of a new minority that is gradually picking up momentum?

I've met a few people like this and to tell you the truth, I don't really understand where some of them learned their English. Some of them seemed like Diasporans actually because I doubt an Armenian born and raised here would speak English more then Armenian. Most Armenians laugh when you talk English believe it or not, so it's not something an Armenian would be proud of. I know almost flawless English (Been learning since I was 4, lol) but I never use English when talking to my friends or neighbors or whatever. My Armenian is almost as good as my English and I only use words like "OK" or "bye" from time to time. That's it. Some Armenians speak English (most of the time you find it hard understanding them though, lol) but just to show off or something.

Anyways, long story short, I don't think these kind of people belong to a certain minority. There are Armenians LEARNING English but using English words constantly is something I don't hear every day when I go to the city. There are a few handfuls of Armenians that do and I don't think we should pay too much attention to them. RUSSIAN on the other hand has completely spoiled this nation. Everyone uses Russian words a lot and like you said, even think they are Armenian words. At one point, when I first came here, I was really confused. This is something we should be dealing with.

A quick question, did the Armenian you were talking to KNOW that your from abroad? If so then I think that's the reason why he was constantly talking English. Some Armenians really like to show off, lol!

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Our Identity

We have 39 letters Anoush jan !

"Եւ" is not a letter, its a word.

Reading some of these threads and posts just reinforces my belief that we Armenians indeed do have identity issues and complexes. Just take a look at this thread called ''want to learn Armenian"... A Greek girl wants to learn Armenian, someone is 'thanking' her, the other one jumps to say 'I am pleased and that it is a treat... etc.' as if Armenian language is just not good enough... It's just hilarious how this self-imposed inferiority complex and insecurity works (although unconsciously at times) within some of us... Does an English, French or Italian thank you for learning his/her language? No! Is he/ she pleased!? No! When are we going to get rid of this cultural cringe?

While I don't agree much with your example, I completely agree with your underlying message. Namely, that many Armenians, in the back of their heads, assume that the status quo "dominant" cultures are more "advanced" than the Armenian civilization, and that Armenians can only learn from odars, and that they have nothing "useful" to learn from us. Personally, I have dealt with and heard of many Armenians who are, for all intents and purposes, odaramols. Don't get me wrong, I also dislike the mentality which is the opposite of what I just described. But at least with that mentality, we are not kneeling at someone else's altar.

Optimally, we should seek to strike a balance, one in which Armenians see themselves as equals of any of the "dominant" cultures.

Your forgetting that the majority of Armenians are OUT THERE, not here in Armenia. How can we ignore them? It's because of the Diaspora that so many people know about us. No matter how much we prosper culturally or whatever, we can't move on very easily without the Diaspora. It's like living without your hands. See 70% of Armenians live outside Armenia. How we prosper or move on is truly connected in many ways to the Diaspora.

I agree, but you have to remember that every prosperous diaspora community will eventually die out. This is the end result, which I think Lucin was alluding to in one of her posts. So instead of using resources to bolster diasporan communities, we should use these resources to strengthen Armenia's national foundations. This is because an independent Armenia is the only place that is gauranteed to preserve our civilization.

Armenians had flourishing diasporan communities throughout India and southeast Asia... and all these communities are gone now. The same thing will eventually happen in other places, the only question is when. At the rate of assimilation, we will only sustain the size of the diaspora through more genocides.



But Saco, I agree with basically everything you said in your initial post. I encourage Armenians to broaden their horizons by learning more languages, and if this includes Russian, I have no problem with it. But this learning of other languages needs to be done after the person knows the mechanics and grammar of their mother tongue, the Armenian language. It is one thing to use Arabic, Latin or Turkish words when speaking Armenian (like I do at times) while knowing that those words are from different languages. I also know the Armenian equivalents to over 90% of those words. However, my experiences in Armenia have shown me that many people actually believe that some of those Russian, Turkish or Latin words are part of the Armenian langauge. This is the fault of, as you said, the educational institutions, and in some respects it shows how the grasp of our own language has decayed in the homeland, which theoretically should be at the forefront in this field.

But Lucin also touches on an important point in regards to the use of English, which I would not have realized if I didn't visit Armenia for the 3rd time just a couple of years ago. Maybe you can give us some insight on this, since you live in Hayastan. I'm not sure if this is exactly what Lucin was referring to, but this is my personal story. During this last trip I met someone who was born and raised in Hayastan, he was around my age (early 20s) and we spent a few days together... I'm not exaggerating, 3/4 of his verbal communication with me was in English. Half of the time, he was talking to me in English and I was answering him back in Armenian. Is this person an exception to the rule, or is he representative of a new minority that is gradually picking up momentum?

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

Nicely said, Kanada. My whole point is that we can't ignore Armenians out there in the world because THEY are the majority ... not us here in Yerevan. We represent our country, culture, music, etc. HERE in Armenia. They represent Armenia in countries all over the world. For that reason, Diasporans need to pull themselves together, period.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Our Identity

Your forgetting that the majority of Armenians are OUT THERE, not here in Armenia. How can we ignore them? It's because of the Diaspora that so many people know about us. No matter how much we prosper culturally or whatever, we can't move on very easily without the Diaspora. It's like living without your hands. See 70% of Armenians live outside Armenia. How we prosper or move on is truly connected in many ways to the Diaspora.

Saco has the right idea. This is the mentality that has to change. I don't care if you're on freaking Mars.... your gravitational pull should be towards ARMENIA.

[Anoush]

Re: Our Identity

'we are not imperialists yet we're liberal'. That's why we should put all our resources into strengthening Armenia the only place where our culture our language and our identity can be preserved, while only hindering the assimilation in the Diaspora as it's just inevitable.

Yes indeed, Armenia is the ONLY real place where our culture, our language and our identity can and will be preserved. Indeed!!!

We should all strive to support Armenia and Artsax in every which way we can. Whether intellectually, economically, going and helping to build the country and the schools, and the list will go on and on... yes support her and her people for all of our lives!!!

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

utilize our wonderful golden language with 38 letters.

We have 39 letters Anoush jan !

Just the other day, my daughter said to me, mom you know when you speak Armenian it really sounds so nice to my ears. It sounds very nice and much better than the English language. I was overjoyed to hear this from my girl and I kissed her for it. You see my dear friends, it's true Armenian is very useful and a beautiful language. I just wish we all continue to speak it more often both in Armenia and in the Diaspora. Let's all of us together make it work!!!!!

Yes Mam /

Read again what I said. I don't have the time to go through your misunderstandings as you don't bother yourself reading carefully.

You just described your art of confusion perfectly! I read everything you said line by line ... something you find hard to do. Prove what I said wrong ... if you can that is. Keep your complaints to youself. Your just following in Kattie's footsteps, making it look like no one on these forums have the ability to read. We've read everything ... not that there was much to read. It's time for YOU to read.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Our Identity

Reading some of these threads and posts just reinforces my belief that we Armenians indeed do have identity issues and complexes. Just take a look at this thread called ''want to learn Armenian"... A Greek girl wants to learn Armenian, someone is 'thanking' her, the other one jumps to say 'I am pleased and that it is a treat... etc.' as if Armenian language is just not good enough... It's just hilarious how this self-imposed inferiority complex and insecurity works (although unconsciously at times) within some of us... Does an English, French or Italian thank you for learning his/her language? No! Is he/ she pleased!? No! When are we going to get rid of this cultural cringe?

You sound a lot like bellthecat here.... hmmmm... more likely they were looking at her picture, her age, that she was female and naturally willing to be helpful like the gentlemen that we are