Our Identity

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Our Identity

Your wrong ! In certain respects, your right. Yev is just two letters stuck together but there is a reason we have that letter. There is a reason our leaders aren't changing that. Like I said, you need to look deeper into Armenian grammer to understand why this letter is being used till now. And it isn't the equivalent of t and h being slapped together. I doubt our grandfathers just woke up one day and decided to create a useless letter, lol.

Can you please tell me how the letter "եւ" changes the meaning and/or pronunciation of a word which makes it different from using "ե" and "ւ" together?

And I can speak for India, Armenia and a few other places out there ! If your learning western Armenian then I doubt you'll learn the 39th letter of our alphabet but eastern Armenian schools do teach them. I have the books to prove it, lol.

You're probably right. But that means these schools don't teach Mesrobian rules, they teach Bolshevik rules.

Hm, I'm starting to see what you mean. But I think this is more complicated then we think. You know why? Because if we don't somehow strenghten the Diaspora ... we will never be strenghtened. So bottom line is, we need a golden balance. We should have say 5 million Armenians here in Armenia ... and another five out there in the Diaspora ... not 7-8 million out there and just 2.5 - 3 million here. With most of the Armenians out there, we have no choice but to somehow educate them and/or keep them informed about they're own country and who they are. To do that, you have to spend money and really make an effort and I don't see that as a fruitless effort. If that's fruitless then you can already consider the fact that you've lost more then 50% of the Armenian populace. I'm afraid I don't give up that easily though and can't live with the fact that we're forgetting our Armenians out there. You say we shouldn't ignore them but our actions say more then our posts. We are doing just that. By only strenghtening Armenia which we CAN'T DO without the Diaspora (forget about that happening) we will lose LOT's and LOT'S of Armenians. Your right, we don't need to build churches. We need to build schools, we need to get Armenians more involved, etc. We have tons of churches and very few Armeninans who actually visit them. So what's the point of building them? It's like building a school but having no students learn in them.

Sure. In short, the diaspora can take care of itself. Whether they want to pass down their Armenian heritage is their own prerogative. Those who want to stay Armenian, will. Sure, there should be basic things like schools, cultural centers and some churches. Thats because the people who want to stay Armenian in the diaspora need the resources to do that. I'm all for it.

Payts chap oo sahman gah. The diaspora doesn't need any more incentive to be involved in Armenian affairs, they are Armenians and should take the initiative of getting involved. Their only job as the diaspora is not to ensure their own survival, but to strengthen the homeland. If the homeland does not raise good Armenians, not only does our homeland itself suffer, but the future diaspora is also in trouble because it will have quicker assimilation rates than it already does. So its suicide for us not to concentrate all our resources towards the Republic of Armenia.

And the population disparity you're talking about between Armenia and the diaspora is exactly the result of not putting enough resources into Armenia itself. I couldn't think of a better example than the one you provided.

Thousands of miles away ? Are you kidding me? Yekhpayr, we live in the age of the internet, satelite tv, and computers. No one is a thousand miles away any longer. This isn't the 1700's when people had to travel by ships. You can travel with a mouse click nowadays! Most Armenians have learned those English words by surfing the net, chatting, entering social networks, etc. believe it or not. But still, English isn't used regularly like Russian.

English isn't used as a seperate language as much as Russian, but English words are widely used, more or less on the same scale as Russian words.

Before, my problem in understanding Hayastancis' lingo would be because they would mix Russian with their speech. Now, my main problem in understanding them is when they mix Latin terms with a Russian accent. I hardly ever hear Russian words in their speech. Again, I don't live there and I'm not surrounded by it everyday like you are, but those are my (limited) observations, and my observations of Armenians here that are fresh out of Armenia.

Here's an example: A Museum Guide (a relative of ours) that was showing us around talked in Armenian and when we asked her to start talking in English because she knew the language pretty well ... she started laughing from time to time. It was almost embarrassing for her, lol. Its not just her, there are thousands that laugh when you or they speak English. Look at it this way. I never talk English in front of my Armenian friends. And I speak clear and proper English. It's not like I talk funny or something. It's simply funny for many Armenians and is considered by many others as showing off.

If you put a Russian accent on your English words you would probably be taken more seriously. Really, its the բրոֆեցիոնալ way to do it

But really, I have a question... Why isn't it considered "showing off" when someone says a sentence in Armenian in which half the words have a Latin origin? If people started laughing at this, instead of laughing at the English language as a whole, maybe it would discourage people from mixing foreign terms into our language which will only diminish the knowledge of our mother tongue. I think we should start this trend... and you're the man to start it, Saco

There are many such people but most know that they aren't talking Armenian. Our people aren't that backwards. Actually, it's not very hard to tell that Latin and Russian words aren't Armenian. Many know that the words that come out of their mouth aren't Armenian but neither do they know the Armenian equivalents of those words. We need to change that.

What you described is a best-case scenario... some people really do think that certain Turkish or Russian words are Armenian (mostly those with little or no education). But I agree, even in the best-case scenario, things need to change.

The problem is, your forgetting that YEV, O and F were added into our list of letters in the last century so we'll have to ditch them!

Thats not true. O and F were added into the alphabet by the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia around 800 years ago. Those additions were a natural evolution of our alphabet, from having come into greater contact with Italian merchants on the Cilician coast.

"YEV" has not even been used for a century, and I have to agree with Lucin on this, it was the decision not of an independent Armenia, but of an Armenia dominated and bullied by Judeo-Bolsheviks. It was neither a natural evolution, because there were no natural conditions which would prompt the creation of such a letter, just the fact that some Bolsheviks had a fetish of changing aspects of our culture. Like how they took Jesus from us and gave us Marx and Lenin. Like how they herded and relocated people like cattle. Like how they created fictitious countries like Azerbaijan. Controlling populations and making changes to ancient cultures is a Judeo-Bolshevik fetish, and we would be better off as a people if we discarded any remnants of their perversities. Just my opinion.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

To be honest, you make way too long posts full of the same misunderstandings often times that I do not have the time to go through all of them…

And you think I have all the time in the world to go through all of your misunderstandings? But I do...

Talking about arrogance, you come to mind real quick… you often times tend to turn the conversation into a monologue without making the slightest effort to understand better your interlocutor, like the post you just made…

I make every effort to understand and even IF and that's a big if I misunderstood you, that doesn't mean I'm arrogant. Just remember how you used to talk to me before and then you'll see who's arrogant and who's right...

First of all, we are neither talking about Modern Armenian nor the Ancient classic Armenian (known as grapar which is being used mainly in our sharakans) second of all, by saying Mesropian, we're talking about the alphabet invented by Mesrop Mashtots and its orthography and not how Mashtots spoke Armenian at his time.

Even in that case your wrong. Why? Because then we shouldn't be using the last three letters of our alphabet. They aren't Mesrop's letter's. You are against yev and if you are then you automatically have to be against O and F. They are also new letters and have nothing whatsoever to do with Mesrop. I want you to understand that every change is not bad/wrong.

Third of all, our grand fathers did not exactly opt for such a 'change' but rather it was imposed on them so it isn't exactly a 'natural evolution' our language went through, it is more or less like how you describe; they just woke up one day and decided to distort...

Wrong. Let's say your right in the case of the last century. Your still wrong though because BEFORE that, everything happened pretty much naturally. So even our grapar went through evolution.

I don't consider Modern Armenian as a distortion because the Armenian we spoke before that was ALSO distorted. You don't understand me correctly. I'm saying that after MM, Armenian started to change so till today, Armenia has gone through a lot of changes and I'm not against Modern Armenian at all even IF it didn't evolve naturally. Sometimes you need to do something manually to evolve. Not everything happens naturally and I don't think everything happened naturally before that either.

fourth; unlike people like you our grammarians in Armenia are well aware of such a lacuna in our alphabetic spelling system.

I am also aware but like them, I don't think we have 38 letters. We have 39 and for a good reason and we teach it in our schools year after year after year. Period.

I already suggested you read the late Hrachia Ajarian's articles and works on this issue who is a prominent contemporary Hayastantsi linguist/ grammarian.

You shouldn't base your views only on his works...

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

I'll answer to you tomorrow Arm.

[KanadaHye]

Re: Our Identity

Wrong. Let's say your right in the case of the last century. Your still wrong though because BEFORE that, everything happened pretty much naturally. So even our grapar went through evolution.

I don't consider Modern Armenian as a distortion because the Armenian we spoke before that was ALSO distorted. You don't understand me correctly. I'm saying that after MM, Armenian started to change so till today, Armenia has gone through a lot of changes and I'm not against Modern Armenian at all even IF it didn't evolve naturally. Sometimes you need to do something manually to evolve. Not everything happens naturally and I don't think everything happened naturally before that either.

I don't necessarily agree with this. Under total independence, Armenians need to set their own ground rules for what they believe forms their identity. Things that happened to the language/grammar because of Russian rule are needed in Armenia just as much as American culture is needed to be forced down their throats through American funded entertainment and TV broadcasting.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

Can you please tell me how the letter "եւ" changes the meaning and/or pronunciation of a word which makes it different from using "ե" and "ւ" together?

They are almost the same but YEV is used in special cases, replacing "ե" and "ւ" together. This isn't wrong, it's just grammer, and it's a letter. For example, when you write a title of a book or something in capital letters, YEV is probably never used if I'm not mistaken. In that case "ե" and "ւ" together are used. But in other special cases, YEV is used. There is a reason this exists and it's not just pointless or wrong. YEV might not be important as a letter compared to say the others but it still is a letter and is used quite well in certain cases, I might add.

When you start using the letter, you start to understand when to use it and when not to. You start to understand it's grammatical background. Bottom line is, it's a letter and it's being used a lot and if it was pointless, our grammarians would have eradicated it by now. We've been an independent country for almost 20 years.

You're probably right. But that means these schools don't teach Mesrobian rules, they teach Bolshevik rules.

That's one way you can put it. What I don't like is how we throw everything on the Russians. Not all our decisions were made by Russians.

Sure. In short, the diaspora can take care of itself. Whether they want to pass down their Armenian heritage is their own prerogative. Those who want to stay Armenian, will. Sure, there should be basic things like schools, cultural centers and some churches. Thats because the people who want to stay Armenian in the diaspora need the resources to do that. I'm all for it.

Payts chap oo sahman gah. The diaspora doesn't need any more incentive to be involved in Armenian affairs, they are Armenians and should take the initiative of getting involved. Their only job as the diaspora is not to ensure their own survival, but to strengthen the homeland. If the homeland does not raise good Armenians, not only does our homeland itself suffer, but the future diaspora is also in trouble because it will have quicker assimilation rates than it already does. So its suicide for us not to concentrate all our resources towards the Republic of Armenia.

I see where your going but again, I'm not saying let's completely work on the Diaspora. I'm saying let's balance everything out. We shouldn't be spending 70-80% of our energy worrying about Armenia and 20% worrying about the Diaspora. Why? Because most of the Armenians are again ... OUT THERE. We have to truly pay attention to them. Armenia is moving on because of many Diasporans. She isn't ready to walk alone without any help. And if we don't pay attention to both her and the Diaspora at the same time, we will lose more then we think. Your right, Armenians out there who WANT to stay Armenians will find a way to do so but there are many that can't. I've lived in the Diaspora and I know what it's like to live away from Armenians. Everyday, you lose more and more of your identity, converting into an American or something. For that reason, we have to find ways to bring those people together, AT LEAST in the Diaspora. I'm not saying spend ALL your resources, but we'll have to spend some resources. That's a must. There is no other way. I'm saying this again, most Armenians are out there and just for that reason, we have to pay extra attention to them. I have nothing more to add.

And the population disparity you're talking about between Armenia and the diaspora is exactly the result of not putting enough resources into Armenia itself. I couldn't think of a better example than the one you provided.

In many respects your right my friend. I think we understood each other. We should be aiming for a golden balance. That's what I'm at least aiming for.

English isn't used as a seperate language as much as Russian, but English words are widely used, more or less on the same scale as Russian words. Before, my problem in understanding Hayastancis' lingo would be because they would mix Russian with their speech. Now, my main problem in understanding them is when they mix Latin terms with a Russian accent. I hardly ever hear Russian words in their speech. Again, I don't live there and I'm not surrounded by it everyday like you are, but those are my (limited) observations, and my observations of Armenians here that are fresh out of Armenia.

Yeah, but like you stated, Armenians mix Latin terms with a Russian accent. So again, it's the Russian that's spoiling our people. I'd be happy to hear pure English terms being used from time to time but what's being used today isn't right. The English is nothing compared to the Russian. Maybe in the future...depends on how English is observed in the world I guess. See my views are that English is more important then Russian and no matter WHAT WE DO, Latin terms will ALWAYS be used somehow so that's why I'm more worried about Russian. It doesn't have to always be used. But it still is being used. I'd rather have our people talk proper English then English mixed with Russian which is hard to understand as you said.

If you put a Russian accent on your English words you would probably be taken more seriously. Really, its the բրոֆեցիոնալ way to do it

What else do you think I do

But really, I have a question... Why isn't it considered "showing off" when someone says a sentence in Armenian in which half the words have a Latin origin? If people started laughing at this, instead of laughing at the English language as a whole, maybe it would discourage people from mixing foreign terms into our language which will only diminish the knowledge of our mother tongue. I think we should start this trend... and you're the man to start it, Saco

I won't let you down, Master Arm

Actually I wanted to say the same thing. See the cover up is what doesn't discourage anyone. You just say English words with a Russian accent and everything is fine. THAT is the big problem and I'm afraid it isn't going anywhere any time soon. Lately, I've been trying my best to either use proper English/Latin words when needed rather then mix it up with Russian. Actually I try my best to never use them at all. It both helps me keep my Armenian clean and understandable.

Thats not true. O and F were added into the alphabet by the Armenian Kingdom of Cilicia around 800 years ago. Those additions were a natural evolution of our alphabet, from having come into greater contact with Italian merchants on the Cilician coast.

Where did you get this info from, Arm?

"YEV" has not even been used for a century, and I have to agree with Lucin on this, it was the decision not of an independent Armenia, but of an Armenia dominated and bullied by Judeo-Bolsheviks. It was neither a natural evolution, because there were no natural conditions which would prompt the creation of such a letter, just the fact that some Bolsheviks had a fetish of changing aspects of our culture. Like how they took Jesus from us and gave us Marx and Lenin. Like how they herded and relocated people like cattle. Like how they created fictitious countries like Azerbaijan. Controlling populations and making changes to ancient cultures is a Judeo-Bolshevik fetish, and we would be better off as a people if we discarded any remnants of their perversities. Just my opinion.

I have no objection, Arm. Don't get me wrong. But today, YEV is used correctly grammer wise and it helps us in many cases. It isn't as useless as Lucin likes to think it is. Like I said, you have to use it to understand the difference between YEV and եւ. It's grammer, my friend, and YEV is one of our letters ... it's just perhaps not as IMPORTANT as the other letters but it's still the 39th letter and until our leaders decide to ditch it, I will continue to use it just like everyone else here in Armenia and thousands around the world . I have nothing more to add and I think we understood each other. I think what I said is fair.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

I don't necessarily agree with this. Under total independence, Armenians need to set their own ground rules for what they believe forms their identity. Things that happened to the language/grammar because of Russian rule are needed in Armenia just as much as American culture is needed to be forced down their throats through American funded entertainment and TV broadcasting.

I don't think we have any other choice but to leave that to the gov. Till now, there are many minor issues to deal with and they aren't being dealt with so I doubt the bigger ones are going any where.

[Lucin]

Re: Our Identity

And you think I have all the time in the world to go through all of your misunderstandings? But I do...

This thread is a typical example of your misunderstandings… and I do not make posts as long as you.

I make every effort to understand and even IF and that's a big if I misunderstood you, that doesn't mean I'm arrogant. Just remember how you used to talk to me before and then you'll see who's arrogant and who's right...

I may have talked to you in your own tone…

Even in that case your wrong. Why? Because then we shouldn't be using the last three letters of our alphabet. They aren't Mesrop's letter's. You are against yev and if you are then you automatically have to be against O and F. They are also new letters and have nothing whatsoever to do with Mesrop. I want you to understand that every change is not bad/wrong.

O and f unlike 'yev' were added to our language centuries ago, and it was a step to fill a gap which was felt greatly. Your analogy is completely faulty; you can not compare those additions to the changes (read damage) Soviets imposed on our language. The damage done is beyond the language itself… just look at this friction here amongst us…

Wrong. Let's say your right in the case of the last century. Your still wrong though because BEFORE that, everything happened pretty much naturally. So even our grapar went through evolution.

When did I say anything about 'BEFORE' that period? If anything, our language was going through a natural evolution before that.

I don't consider Modern Armenian as a distortion because the Armenian we spoke before that was ALSO distorted. You don't understand me correctly. I'm saying that after MM, Armenian started to change so till today, Armenia has gone through a lot of changes and I'm not against Modern Armenian at all even IF it didn't evolve naturally.

The Armenian me, ArmSurvival and many more are talking about is the Modern Armenian.

Sometimes you need to do something manually to evolve. Not everything happens naturally and I don't think everything happened naturally before that either.

Who is this 'you'? What's his 'job'? And who authorized him to do so?

I am also aware but like them, I don't think we have 38 letters. We have 39 and for a good reason and we teach it in our schools year after year after year. Period.

The Armenian alphabet has 38 letters. Period. And you teach it in your schools wrongly year after year after year…

You shouldn't base your views only on his works...

lol, a cute way to get away with your own argument... do you at least know him?

It isn't as useless as Lucin likes to think it is.

When did I say it's useless? I do not talk about the usefulness of a letter which does not exist.

I have no objection, Arm. Don't get me wrong. But today, YEV is used correctly grammer wise and it helps us in many cases.

What kind of grammar is it? By who has it been introduced into our language? And since when? Answer these questions please and I'm done.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

This thread is a typical example of your misunderstandings… and I do not make posts as long as you.

Oh stop it, Lucin. Your misunderstanding personified and I have the posts and threads to prove it. How many times have you misunderstood me, how many times have you tried so hard to offend me only to realize I couldn't care less what you said? So please, keep these types of comments to yourself. They mean nothing to me. And my posts are long because I have something to say. Don't like to read? Move on. No one's begging you to read my posts. Fact is, you don't even know how to read.

I may have talked to you in your own tone…

No Lucin, you talked in your own xxxxty, upset, and sarcastic tone for no reason and that's why we're talking this way with each other (like I care). Ko mech puntri...

O and f unlike 'yev' were added to our language centuries ago, and it was a step to fill a gap which was felt greatly. Your analogy is completely faulty; you can not compare those additions to the changes (read damage) Soviets imposed on our language. The damage done is beyond the language itself… just look at this friction here amongst us…

Look, I've said this before. Not all changes are bad. Adding a new letter into our language doesn't spoil it or something. YEV isn't a terrible letter and is used only in special cases.

When did I say anything about 'BEFORE' that period? If anything, our language was going through a natural evolution before that.

I doubt everything happened naturally but overall it was natural.

The Armenian me, ArmSurvival and many more are talking about is the Modern Armenian.

The Armenian we all talk here in Yerevan?

Who is this 'you'? What's his 'job'? And who authorized him to do so?

You is Armenian individuals ... their job is evolving the language ... and I doubt anyone authorized it. Not everything is authorized just like it wasn't authorized when people started changing the way books were written like the Bible and the Quran!

The Armenian alphabet has 38 letters. Period. And you teach it in your schools wrongly year after year after year…

I'm sorry to hurt your feelings sweetheart but there are THIRTY NINE letters and they are being taught in many schools ... not only in Armenia. Live with it. And YEV is not a mistake. If it was, it would have been removed. Period. If you can't understand that then I'm afraid your way beyond being mistaken.

lol, a cute way to get away with your own argument... do you at least know him?

No but I soon will and do you know anyone besides him ?

When did I say it's useless? I do not talk about the usefulness of a letter which does not exist.

Well wake up and smell the coffee because that letter exists and for good reasons. Don't like that? Go complain to the people that aren't eradicating it! I don't understand why your throwing this at me.

What kind of grammar is it?

You don't use it so it'll be hard for your to understand!

By who has it been introduced into our language? And since when? Answer these questions please and I'm done.

I don't know by whom and it doesn't really matter. The fact is that we have been an independent country for 20 years and no one has thought of removing YEV from our list of letters. Instead, they continue to use it without any problems, printing books, newspapers, etc.

THE END

[Lucin]

Re: Our Identity

Oh stop it, Lucin. Your misunderstanding personified and I have the posts and threads to prove it. How many times have you misunderstood me, how many times have you tried so hard to offend me only to realize I couldn't care less what you said? So please, keep these types of comments to yourself. They mean nothing to me. And my posts are long because I have something to say. Don't like to read? Move on. No one's begging you to read my posts. Fact is, you don't even know how to read.



No Lucin, you talked in your own xxxxty, upset, and sarcastic tone for no reason and that's why we're talking this way with each other (like I care). Ko mech puntri...



Look, I've said this before. Not all changes are bad. Adding a new letter into our language doesn't spoil it or something. YEV isn't a terrible letter and is used only in special cases.



I doubt everything happened naturally but overall it was natural.



The Armenian we all talk here in Yerevan?



You is Armenian individuals ... their job is evolving the language ... and I doubt anyone authorized it. Not everything is authorized just like it wasn't authorized when people started changing the way books were written like the Bible and the Quran!



I'm sorry to hurt your feelings sweetheart but there are THIRTY NINE letters and they are being taught in many schools ... not only in Armenia. Live with it. And YEV is not a mistake. If it was, it would have been removed. Period. If you can't understand that then I'm afraid your way beyond being mistaken.



No but I soon will and do you know anyone besides him ?



Well wake up and smell the coffee because that letter exists and for good reasons. Don't like that? Go complain to the people that aren't eradicating it! I don't understand why your throwing this at me.



You don't use it so it'll be hard for your to understand!



I don't know by whom and it doesn't really matter. The fact is that we have been an independent country for 20 years and no one has thought of removing YEV from our list of letters. Instead, they continue to use it without any problems, printing books, newspapers, etc.

THE END

"I don't know... I don't care... It doesn't really matter… Live with it..." if this was how you were going to respond to my arguments then why bother making a new post? Nice try, nevertheless... The harder you try, the better you prove our point.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

"I don't know... I don't care... It doesn't really matter… Live with it..." if this was how you were going to respond to my arguments then why bother making a new post? Nice try, nevertheless... The harder you try, the better you prove our point.

Not OUR point ... YOUR silly point. I'm giving you what you gave me! I didn't start on the wrong foot with you. You started on the wrong foot with ME. Don't try to turn this around Lucin. And stop pouting at me as if I'm the one that created the letter YEV. If you want to change it, let's do something about it. If not then that's your business. I'm stating facts ... you decide whether you want to accept them or not. As of today, all I'm saying is that YEV is a Goddamn letter and no matter how much you say it isn't, it ain't gonna change the fact that it IS. Might be WRONG, might be pathetic, but it's a letter and is used properly in many schools in different countries including our motherland and if it was so useless, our grammarians would have removed it. I use it and actually find it to be helpful at times. You haven't used it and I don't expect you to understand why it's being used. I just want you to accept the fact that it's a letter and if we need to change that, let's get down to work because that letter is becoming more and more imortant every day. Soon you won't be able to change anything. Your gonna have to live with it, I'm saying this again ! Don't misunderstand me like you always have.