Our Identity

[Lucin]

Re: Our Identity

While I don't agree much with your example...

Where don't you agree with my example? I think the language example is one of the best illustrating our inferiority complex towards some other widespread commonly used languages which are not necessarily any perfect or eloquent...

I completely agree with your underlying message. Namely, that many Armenians, in the back of their heads, assume that the status quo "dominant" cultures are more "advanced" than the Armenian civilization, and that Armenians can only learn from odars, and that they have nothing "useful" to learn from us. Personally, I have dealt with and heard of many Armenians who are, for all intents and purposes, odaramols. Don't get me wrong, I also dislike the mentality which is the opposite of what I just described. But at least with that mentality, we are not kneeling at someone else's altar.

Optimally, we should seek to strike a balance, one in which Armenians see themselves as equals of any of the "dominant" cultures.

Yes I think we should reach a point of self-esteem and self-assurance (in a positive way) in our collective psyche where ideally speaking we neither get overjoyed if someone (an odar) mentions the name Armenia (or anything related to it) nor should we fall into the other extreme by raising ourselves into indifference...

But Lucin also touches on an important point in regards to the use of English, which I would not have realized if I didn't visit Armenia for the 3rd time just a couple of years ago. Maybe you can give us some insight on this, since you live in Hayastan. I'm not sure if this is exactly what Lucin was referring to, but this is my personal story. During this last trip I met someone who was born and raised in Hayastan, he was around my age (early 20s) and we spent a few days together... I'm not exaggerating, 3/4 of his verbal communication with me was in English. Half of the time, he was talking to me in English and I was answering him back in Armenian. Is this person an exception to the rule, or is he representative of a new minority that is gradually picking up momentum?

No, it is not an exception. It's not just me and you.
Personally, I have seen numerous cases among the youngsters and the middle-aged people as well… I tell you the amount of English words used in their daily conversations is not less than Russian… but some choose to ignore it and pass it off as learning an international language… some common simple words that come readily to my mind are client (կլիէնտ), killer (կիլլեռ), effect (էֆեկտ), criminal (կռիմինալ), impulsive (իմպուլսիւ) and many more… lol, the pronunciation is quite funny.

You sound a lot like bellthecat here.... hmmmm...

I think someone attributing the origin of Atrpatakan to "Armenian propaganda" would sound much more like bell-the-cat…

more likely they were looking at her picture, her age, that she was female and naturally willing to be helpful like the gentlemen that we are

Look, when did I say we should not be helpful? I would be the first to help anyone willing to learn Armenian, if I can. That's admirable. Like I said to ArmSurvival; we should reach a point of self-esteem and self-assurance (in a positive way) in our collective psyche where ideally speaking we neither get overjoyed if someone (an odar) mentions the name Armenia (or anything related to it) nor should we fall into the other extreme by raising ourselves into indifference. No need to focus on this one example, I can point out to many more...

Here is a mission statement from the AGBU

· We believe all children can and will learn in an effective school environment.

· We will maintain high expectations and promote academic excellence for all students.

· We will create and support a school culture in which all children feel welcomed, respected, valued, trusted, motivated, and an important part of the school.

· We will provide a safe, nurturing environment and work with children to help them develop reliable study habits for academic success and as life-long learners.

· We will highlight the importance of social skills and moral values and provide guidance for their application in real life situations.

· We will generate an environment where we can learn together and assist each other in all situations, at all times.

· We will encourage a positive school climate of a caring community which respects and values diversity and nurtures everyone's self esteem.

· We will prepare students to become active participants in our democratic and pluralistic society.

· We will foster the Armenian identity of students through the Armenian curriculum.

I think they are failing miserably in a lot of instances... or more likely Armenians are choosing not to learn.


Taking a look at the world map, I didn't even know there were this many AGBU's in the world.

http://www.agbu.org/directory/default.asp

That's all in Diaspora… I have already explained why it's futile in the long run. The efficiency of such programs is just temporary, at best it will only hinder the assimilation nothing more…

[KanadaHye]

Re: Our Identity

That's all in Diaspora… I have already explained why it's futile in the long run. The efficiency of such programs is just temporary, at best it will only hinder the assimilation nothing more…

You asked where Armenian schools were built, I answered. The blame is on the Armenian communities for putting more emphasis on their fancy cars and their mini mansions than the preservation of our culture in their communities. Emphasis on education is lacking, and that's where it all starts.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

some common simple words that come readily to my mind are client (կլիէնտ), killer (կիլլեռ), effect (էֆեկտ), criminal (կռիմինալ), impulsive (իմպուլսիւ) and many more… lol, the pronunciation is quite funny.

This is what your talking about??? Some of the words you mentioned are used in Russian as well like the word criminal, client, etc. So again, it's the Russian that's spoiled the people although naturally, English words can be also heard from time to time. I don't see that as harmful though because I don't see English signs in schools, colleges, etc. Almost all of them are in Russian. That's something we should be working against. A few English words in an Armenians vocabulary isn't going to ruin this nation but tons of Russians words truly will! It already has, actually.

The person Arm described and Armenians similar to him can't be seen too often in Yerevan. That's something rare and I don't think he was raised here. Let me know if he was, Arm.

You asked where Armenian schools were built, I answered. The blame is on the Armenian communities for putting more emphasis on their fancy cars and their mini mansions than the preservation of our culture in their communities. Emphasis on education is lacking, and that's where it all starts.

Good call, K. What some don't understand and really have a rough time understanding is that we can't ignore the Armenians out there in the Diaspora. Armenia is in no position to ignore them. It's like living without your hands or legs, I don't know how else to put it. The majority of Armenians are outside and it is unacceptable to say that we should just perserve our culture here and almost completely ignore everyone outside. Ignoring them means losing 50-60% of our people and I don't know what kind of a person could degrade them in such a way. Only a fool would ask me to give up on the Armenians out there. That's the kind of attitude that has led us to this current state...

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Our Identity

It's a letter and it's taught in all the schools here in Armenia and all the schools I've been to abroad. Here's what it looks like և yekhpayr

I know Saco, much to my disappointment, the Judeo-Bolsheviks have tricked people into thinking that "եւ" is a letter. When those mules were reforming our language, they probably heard the recitation of our alphabet, and since it ends with "եւ Օ Ֆ", they just assumed that this "եւ" sound was a letter. The "եւ" is actually part of the recitation in order to highlight the fact that the last two letters, Օ and ֆ, were not created by Mashdots and were added to our alphabet during the Cilician kingdom. They were conducting extensive trade with Genoese and Venetian merchants, and they needed those 2 letters to pronounce their names and their terms.

The logic behind having "եւ" as a letter is similar to saying that "and" is an English letter, because when you recite the alphabet, you say "X Y and Z".

Can you tell this is a pet peeve of mine?

The Diasporans need to become more aware and the Armenians here in Armenia need to support them and most importantly our country itself. You thought Diasporans ignoring their nation was bad, lol. There are Armenians here that don't give a damn if this country existed at all. They'd it if they knew they could get lot's of money. To tell you the truth, I'm more upset at Armenians here in Armenia then Armenians out there in the world because they LIVE here and ignore everything. They don't do anything to help our nation. Diasporans are going through a lot and many don't know much about Armenia so you can't blame them too much but the Armenians here are a completely different story.

Ya, this was actually one of the things I noticed in Armenia. I also get this impression from some Armenians in L.A. who are fresh from Armenia. This is exactly why we need to focus on building Armenia's national and cultural foundations, rather than building the foundations of diasporan communities which will just end up dying out eventually.

Bottom line is, we're not balanced and that's a big problem. The Armenians here have to help the Diasporans remember who they are and the Diasporans need to help our nation prosper and remind us what's going on. Many Armenians here don't know, trust me. Many Diasporans have better knowledge in many respects when it comes down to politics, etc.

Ya I agree, diasporans are much more advanced in certain aspects such as politics, mainly because they have been around the world and have a better idea of how odars think, and how people in positions of power think and behave. But I don't blame Hayastancis for this--- they have a great capacity to learn, and many of them are just as advanced in these fields as diasporans, despite the tough conditions they were raised in. But when you live under Bolshevik rule for so long, there is only so much of the population that can reach this level.

If you think about it, just before Bolshevik rule, Yerevan was a village in which there were more refugees than actual residents. Right at this fragile moment, the Bolsheviks came in and basically built the society from the ground up. We can't expect this society to throw off the shackles and become a world-class society in a handful of years. Armenia is still in rehab, recovering from the Bolshevik virus.

What I'm saying all this time basically is that we shouldn't divide the people. We aren't Indians, Americans, etc. ... we're all Armenians ... and what happens to Diasporans has to matter to Armenians here and what happens to Armenians here has to always mean a lot to Diasporans. Period.

I'm in total agreement. But, we must always remember, the diaspora is a dead-end, and we should act accordingly.

I've met a few people like this and to tell you the truth, I don't really understand where some of them learned their English. Some of them seemed like Diasporans actually because I doubt an Armenian born and raised here would speak English more then Armenian. Most Armenians laugh when you talk English believe it or not, so it's not something an Armenian would be proud of. I know almost flawless English (Been learning since I was 4, lol) but I never use English when talking to my friends or neighbors or whatever. My Armenian is almost as good as my English and I only use words like "OK" or "bye" from time to time. That's it. Some Armenians speak English (most of the time you find it hard understanding them though, lol) but just to show off or something.

Anyways, long story short, I don't think these kind of people belong to a certain minority. There are Armenians LEARNING English but using English words constantly is something I don't hear every day when I go to the city. There are a few handfuls of Armenians that do and I don't think we should pay too much attention to them. RUSSIAN on the other hand has completely spoiled this nation. Everyone uses Russian words a lot and like you said, even think they are Armenian words. At one point, when I first came here, I was really confused. This is something we should be dealing with.

So I wasn't just overreacting, there are small pockets of Armenian youth who communicate mainly in English. To me, this is more of a threat than Russian. This is because, we were forced to conform to the Russian language for 7 decades. Its natural that there are still strong remnants of the Russian language in Armenian society. But we have never been under the control of an English or Latin regime, but somehow, many youth are communicating with English or Latin terms. This means that globalism has reached Armenia, and to me globalism is more of a threat than Russian, which is slowly losing ground. Its more of a threat to me, because the Russian domination came through direct military rule, but this English trend is happening despite virtually no English or Latin stronghold in Armenia.

And Saco, you can't tell me that people in Armenia don't use Latin terms while they speak Armenian. As a WA speaker, I understand EA very well. However, the main reason I don't understand certain sentences is because Hayastancis will mix Latin terms and cover them up with a Russian pronunciation. I always mistake them for Russian words, then someone will tell me "he's just saying concrete".

A quick question, did the Armenian you were talking to KNOW that your from abroad? If so then I think that's the reason why he was constantly talking English. Some Armenians really like to show off, lol!

I speak Arevmdahayeren, so its easy to tell I'm a diasporan.

The person Arm described and Armenians similar to him can't be seen too often in Yerevan. That's something rare and I don't think he was raised here. Let me know if he was, Arm.

He was born and raised in Yerevan. Granted, he has travelled abroad, but his English is so good that he can live an any English-speaking country with no problems whatsoever.

Where don't you agree with my example? I think the language example is one of the best illustrating our inferiority complex towards some other widespread commonly used languages which are not necessarily any perfect or eloquent...

I guess you have a point.

No, it is not an exception. It's not just me and you.
Personally, I have seen numerous cases among the youngsters and the middle-aged people as well… I tell you the amount of English words used in their daily conversations is not less than Russian… but some choose to ignore it and pass it off as learning an international language… some common simple words that come readily to my mind are client (կլիէնտ), killer (կիլլեռ), effect (էֆեկտ), criminal (կռիմինալ), impulsive (իմպուլսիւ) and many more… lol, the pronunciation is quite funny.

Lucin, you hit the nail on the head. Some other common terms are concrete (կոնկրէթ), president (բրեզիդենթ), sport (սբորթ), conflict (կոնֆլիքտ), and official (օֆիիշալ), but there are hundreds of terms. You can pick up any diasporan newspaper, and read any one of the articles written by a Hayastanci, and you will find, almost without exception, that it is littered with Latin terms.

My dad tells me (he reads many newspapers) that you can always tell the western Armenian journalists from the Hayastanci ones, because western Armenian journalists only use Armenian words, and if they use Latin terms, they will put them in quotations to distinguish them from Armenian words. The Hayastanci journalists not only use Latin words regularly and excessively, but they don't even bother to put them in quotations, because they actually believe that these words are part of the Armenian language.

[Anoush]

Re: Our Identity

I know Saco, much to my disappointment, the Judeo-Bolsheviks have tricked people into thinking that "եւ" is a letter. When those mules were reforming our language, they probably heard the recitation of our alphabet, and since it ends with "եւ Օ Ֆ", they just assumed that this "եւ" sound was a letter. The "եւ" is actually part of the recitation in order to highlight the fact that the last two letters, Օ and ֆ, were not created by Mashdots and were added to our alphabet during the Cilician kingdom. They were conducting extensive trade with Genoese and Venetian merchants, and they needed those 2 letters to pronounce their names and their terms.

The logic behind having "եւ" as a letter is similar to saying that "and" is an English letter, because when you recite the alphabet, you say "X Y and Z".

Yes and knowing this I never count the "yev" as a letter as we do have 38 Armenian letters.

Ya, this was actually one of the things I noticed in Armenia. I also get this impression from some Armenians in L.A. who are fresh from Armenia. This is exactly why we need to focus on building Armenia's national and cultural foundations, rather than building the foundations of diasporan communities which will just end up dying out eventually.

Very true indeed. As sad as it may sound but I also don't see much hope in the Diaspora; especially the way that many intermarry with "odars".

If you think about it, just before Bolshevik rule, Yerevan was a village in which there were more refugees than actual residents. Right at this fragile moment, the Bolsheviks came in and basically built the society from the ground up. We can't expect this society to throw off the shackles and become a world-class society in a handful of years. Armenia is still in rehab, recovering from the Bolshevik virus.

Yes unfortunately and with lots of work towards working into the people more patriotism, continuing our wonderful traditions and getting control of our culture and useage of language, in time we shall overcome.

I speak Arevmdahayeren, so its easy to tell I'm a diasporan.)

So do I.

My dad tells me (he reads many newspapers) that you can always tell the western Armenian journalists from the Hayastanci ones, because western Armenian journalists only use Armenian words, and if they use Latin terms, they will put them in quotations to distinguish them from Armenian words. The Hayastanci journalists not only use Latin words regularly and excessively, but they don't even bother to put them in quotations, because they actually believe that these words are part of the Armenian language.

It is classy as well to utilize only one language when speaking or writing. Thus when you speak or write Armenian it is far better to utilize only the Armenian language as much as you possibly can.

[ara87]

Re: Our Identity

I think that in educational institutions, signs should only be in Armenian (although english and russian should be mandatory classes), however in places like air ports, hotels, certain businesses, can have sings in Armenian/English/Russian, but it should be limited.

Armenia doesn't really have an excuse to have signs, in other languages, as almost all the population is ethnically Armenian, it's not like the USA, where you have towns consisting of a majority of a certain minority (Mexicans, Arabs, Koreans). I mean fine we get some tourists, but it's not like millions of them are flocking to our streets.

As for Saco's bit about his dad and the Mexican, there are Armos like that mexican, in Lebanon anyways, in Bourj Hammoud, there places where there are only Armenian signs, and some of the armos don't even know arabic,

[KanadaHye]

Re: Our Identity

I'm in total agreement. But, we must always remember, the diaspora is a dead-end, and we should act accordingly.

As long as Armenia remains in its current state, it will just be a continuous breeding ground for the diaspora of the future. It needs to be more than a tourist attraction. The reason why it thrived under communism was due to industry. But no worries, the majority of the middle class in the world isn't too far behind in joining the ranks of the impoverished.


"The ideal of a single civilization for everyone implicit in the cult of progress and technique, impoverishes and mutilates us. Every view of the world that becomes extinct, every culture that disappears, diminishes a possibility of life."

Culture, growth, wealth and freedom go hand in hand. I think we have an idea of what we need Armenia to be... the question is how do the people achieve those goals with so many barriers aka. government.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

I know Saco, much to my disappointment, the Judeo-Bolsheviks have tricked people into thinking that "եւ" is a letter. When those mules were reforming our language, they probably heard the recitation of our alphabet, and since it ends with "եւ Օ Ֆ", they just assumed that this "եւ" sound was a letter. The "եւ" is actually part of the recitation in order to highlight the fact that the last two letters, Օ and ֆ, were not created by Mashdots and were added to our alphabet during the Cilician kingdom. They were conducting extensive trade with Genoese and Venetian merchants, and they needed those 2 letters to pronounce their names and their terms.

The logic behind having "եւ" as a letter is similar to saying that "and" is an English letter, because when you recite the alphabet, you say "X Y and Z".

I don't think it's exactly the way you described it (you have to go deeper into Armenian grammer I feel to understand why yev is a letter and why it exists) but anyways, the bottom line is ... it's a letter and we learn about it in school's around the world. Don't like it? There's the complaint box !

Can you tell this is a pet peeve of mine?

Yeah, I can tell, lol.

Ya, this was actually one of the things I noticed in Armenia. I also get this impression from some Armenians in L.A. who are fresh from Armenia. This is exactly why we need to focus on building Armenia's national and cultural foundations, rather than building the foundations of diasporan communities which will just end up dying out eventually.

So what are you suggesting, we should just give up on the Diaspora? I'm here yelling that we need to bring Armenians together and make them more aware and your saying we should give up on more then 70% of the Armenian populace. Is that really the right attitude ?

If you think about it, just before Bolshevik rule, Yerevan was a village in which there were more refugees than actual residents. Right at this fragile moment, the Bolsheviks came in and basically built the society from the ground up. We can't expect this society to throw off the shackles and become a world-class society in a handful of years. Armenia is still in rehab, recovering from the Bolshevik virus.

I agree.

I'm in total agreement. But, we must always remember, the diaspora is a dead-end, and we should act accordingly.

It's not as dead as you think my friend. Many Armenians are going out of Armenia then the Diaspora and for that reason, we have to remind them always where they are from in any way we can. If the Diaspora is a dead end then so is Armenia because we can't get too far without the Diaspora. We have to balance everything out and as fast as possible. Armenia is our HQ but it can't survive without Armenians and the majority of Armenians are outside. That's the problem. 3 million Armenians (MAX) live in Armenia. over 8 million live outside. So ignoring the Diaspora means ignoring our people (plus it slows down our advancement) and that's the worst mistake we can make. We have to give them a lot of attention and at the same time, work things out here so they'll wanna come back. Your also forgetting how much the Diasporans have helped our nation. Now we suddenly decide to ignore them?

So I wasn't just overreacting, there are small pockets of Armenian youth who communicate mainly in English. To me, this is more of a threat than Russian. This is because, we were forced to conform to the Russian language for 7 decades. Its natural that there are still strong remnants of the Russian language in Armenian society. But we have never been under the control of an English or Latin regime, but somehow, many youth are communicating with English or Latin terms. This means that globalism has reached Armenia, and to me globalism is more of a threat than Russian, which is slowly losing ground. Its more of a threat to me, because the Russian domination came through direct military rule, but this English trend is happening despite virtually no English or Latin stronghold in Armenia.

But you can't see this all the time. These kind of people can't be seen every day. How many have you met? I've met very few.

And Saco, you can't tell me that people in Armenia don't use Latin terms while they speak Armenian.

They do that, I never said they don't. But I don't see that as unusual. Every country has this and I'm sure they always will. I'm Ok with Armenians talking a bit of latin. I'm not OK with the Russian though because Armenians not only use it inappropriately, they confuse the words they use, thinking they are Armenian words.

As a WA speaker, I understand EA very well. However, the main reason I don't understand certain sentences is because Hayastancis will mix Latin terms and cover them up with a Russian pronunciation. I always mistake them for Russian words, then someone will tell me "he's just saying concrete".

I know what you mean. Anways, I'm more worried about the Russian as usual because it won't fade away as fast as you think. It has become a part of almost every Yerevantsi's vocabulary. I even see kids 5-7 years old walking around like a gangsta, spitting Russian words around, so seriously, don't try to leave the impression that English is much more dangerous. I told you already, most Armenians laugh when someone speaks English so it's not realistic to think many Armenians will even want to speak English.

He was born and raised in Yerevan. Granted, he has travelled abroad, but his English is so good that he can live an any English-speaking country with no problems whatsoever.

Interesting. Anyways, I don't think he's part of a minority or something ... especially because he knew such great English.

Lucin, you hit the nail on the head. Some other common terms are concrete (կոնկրէթ), president (բրեզիդենթ), sport (սբորթ), conflict (կոնֆլիքտ), and official (օֆիիշալ), but there are hundreds of terms. You can pick up any diasporan newspaper, and read any one of the articles written by a Hayastanci, and you will find, almost without exception, that it is littered with Latin terms.

My dad tells me (he reads many newspapers) that you can always tell the western Armenian journalists from the Hayastanci ones, because western Armenian journalists only use Armenian words, and if they use Latin terms, they will put them in quotations to distinguish them from Armenian words. The Hayastanci journalists not only use Latin words regularly and excessively, but they don't even bother to put them in quotations, because they actually believe that these words are part of the Armenian language.

I think your mistaken here. They don't think these words are part of the Armenian language. It's just that people have used them so much that it's become something normal but that's changing slowly. Nowadays, newspapers are being fined when they make these kind of mistakes.

What you described is something you can see in almost any country. Look at India. You know how many English words they use every day? Even if you didn't know hindi, you'd still be able to understand them, lol. In Armenia, it's the Russian that's being used CONSTANTLY and yes, I agree, there are many English words but I find that to be normal. The Russian on the other hand has completely spoiled this nation. It won't wear off unless we do something about it.

Culture, growth, wealth and freedom go hand in hand. I think we have an idea of what we need Armenia to be... the question is how do the people achieve those goals with so many barriers aka. government.

Just the question we should be asking. We know the problems, let's find solutions. To me, ignoring the Diaspora is not a solution and it's far from reality.

[Lucin]

Re: Our Identity

Lucin, you hit the nail on the head. Some other common terms are concrete (կոնկրէթ), president (բրեզիդենթ), sport (սբորթ), conflict (կոնֆլիքտ), and official (օֆիիշալ), but there are hundreds of terms. You can pick up any diasporan newspaper, and read any one of the articles written by a Hayastanci, and you will find, almost without exception, that it is littered with Latin terms.

lol, yes, today I just learnt a 'new' word; compromise (կոմպռոմիզ). It's just everywhere, on TV, on the streets, in the newspapers… I had also difficulty understanding and distinguishing these words as they are being pronounced with a strange accent (perhaps influenced by Russian) but now I'm taking notes every time I hear one, I will try to make a big list and post it.

My dad tells me (he reads many newspapers) that you can always tell the western Armenian journalists from the Hayastanci ones, because western Armenian journalists only use Armenian words, and if they use Latin terms, they will put them in quotations to distinguish them from Armenian words. The Hayastanci journalists not only use Latin words regularly and excessively, but they don't even bother to put them in quotations, because they actually believe that these words are part of the Armenian language.

Your dad is quite right. I have come to the conclusion that overall, western Armenians perhaps speak better/ cleaner Armenian than us, eastern speakers, and this despite the fact that they have lived far from the Homeland for generations. Also, if you take a look at our modern literature, you may notice that our western writers are producing some brilliant works...

[KanadaHye]

Re: Our Identity

Your dad is quite right. I have come to the conclusion that overall, western Armenians perhaps speak better/ cleaner Armenian than us, eastern speakers, and this despite the fact that they have lived far from the Homeland for generations. Also, if you take a look at our modern literature, you may notice that our western writers are producing some brilliant works...

I thought it was just me that thought western Armenian sounds cleaner than eastern. As far as living far from the homeland, I think they were able to preserve their heritage better by keeping their culture seperate from those cultures with which they interacted.... whereas eastern Armenians were influenced directly from being under rule.