Our Identity

[KanadaHye]

Re: Our Identity

Perhaps a civil war is needed to remove the letter YEV from the alphabet.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

perhaps ... Seeing as everything is extreme here.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Our Identity

Saco we seem to agree on some important things, but here is where we differ:

I see where your going but again, I'm not saying let's completely work on the Diaspora. I'm saying let's balance everything out. We shouldn't be spending 70-80% of our energy worrying about Armenia and 20% worrying about the Diaspora. Why? Because most of the Armenians are again ...

This is where we disagree: I think we SHOULD be spending at least 70-80% of our energy on Armenia. Its a much better investment in terms of securing our homeland and securing the status of future diasporas.

All the investments we make in the diaspora will disappear in a couple of generations. You spent time in India, so tell me, where are the flourishing Armenian communities of Mumbai and Madras? How many Armenians are left on Armenia street?

Where did you get this info from, Arm?

I originally learned about it at school. Here is another source, check out page 4: http://www.accc.org.uk/News/CILICIA/...skenderian.pdf

[The increasing tendency of Armenian nobles to be fluent in French, Latin and
Greek alongside Armenian and the adoption of certain phrases and words led to two
additions to the Armenian alphabet the sounds and symbols for ‘O’ and ‘F’.]


As you can see, although 'O' and 'F' are technically not Mesrobian letters, they were added to our alphabet by an independent Armenian state and for a practical purpose, in sharp contrast to "YEV".

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

This is where we disagree: I think we SHOULD be spending at least 70-80% of our energy on Armenia. Its a much better investment in terms of securing our homeland and securing the status of future diasporas.

And where do you think those investments come from yekhpayr? You know how much the Diaspora gives us?

All the investments we make in the diaspora will disappear in a couple of generations. You spent time in India, so tell me, where are the flourishing Armenian communities of Mumbai and Madras? How many Armenians are left on Armenia street?

Not many but India is a different case. Let's not mix things up. In Calcutta (Now Kolkata), the schools there closed down at one point, then problems start to take place. Things weren't stable there. Armenians are starting to bring things together once again though ... slowly. What happened in India didn't happen because there weren't enough investments. It happened because too many Armenians left (after India became independent, things changed and were already changing before that).

There is no way Armenian communities in India will completely give up. You know why? Because there is lot's of money, you can't even start to imagine how much, that CAN'T be used anywhere else ... only in India! So like it or not, the Diaspora will flourish and a lot of money won't reach Armenia (because your not allowed to take it out of the country). For that reason, I'm saying let's create a golden balance. If not that then at least let us spend 30-40% (MAX) of our energy on the Diaspora and spend 60-70% of our energy on Armenia. I think that's fair and everyone will be happy that way.

You use the phrase "dead end". I'm afraid there is no such thing. Even though there are small amounts of Armenians in India ... STILL ... the best street in Kolkata is park street (created by Armenians), a part of Kolkata wich was called the Armenian Market is still called the Armenian Market by almost everyone there, our churches there are constantly being renovated, more and more students are going to the Armenian College there, there is lots of money just waiting to be properly used, etc. There is no dead end! There will always be small communities and we won't be forgotten in India and in many other countries no matter how many years pass. The Diaspora will always be there ... especially because of all the hard and GREAT work of the Armenian communities throughout history. We should be taking care of these places and breathing some life into them again ... not ignoring them and worrying about Armenia EIGHTY PERCENT of the time. WHY? Because the Diaspora is not one country! There are tons of countries and communities and I'm afraid 20% just doesn't do it. Hope you understood me correctly.

I originally learned about it at school. Here is another source, check out page 4: http://www.accc.org.uk/News/CILICIA/...skenderian.pdf

A good read. Thanks Arm.

As you can see, although 'O' and 'F' are technically not Mesrobian letters, they were added to our alphabet by an independent Armenian state and for a practical purpose, in sharp contrast to "YEV".

What if we were independent? If we added YEV then, would you still think the way you do now? It doesn't matter WHEN YEV was created. Fact is, it was CREATED and it exists today. You can erase the YEV from your list of Armenian letters on your Armenian calendar but it still won't change the fact that it's a letter ! Today, it is being used and is a part of our grammer and IS a letter. Now, like I said above to Lucin, if you guys don't like this and it's such a mistake, find a way to change that SOON because this letter is becoming more and more important every day. Soon, you won't be able to do anything. Our children will start learning it in schools. Then we'll all just have to live with it which I don't have much of a problem with because YEV isn't just two letters slapped together. You have to learn grammer to understand why, no offense. It's not as pointless as you think. It's maybe not as important as the other letters but it is a letter, like it or not. Ignoring that fact won't change anything...

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Our Identity

And where do you think those investments come from yekhpayr? You know how much the Diaspora gives us?

I'm well aware, and I'm saying this is a good thing and we should increase the investments in our homeland. The diaspora doesn't need help from Armenia to keep itself prosperous, its self-sufficient. So no point in dwelling on the diaspora, which can take care of itself... better to invest in Armenia, which actually needs the help, in order to secure our homeland.

The only thing Armenia should do to help the diaspora is to keep a connection with us, and make it easy for us to get involved and make a difference.

There is no way Armenian communities in India will completely give up. You know why? Because there is lot's of money, you can't even start to imagine how much, that CAN'T be used anywhere else ... only in India! So like it or not, the Diaspora will flourish and a lot of money won't reach Armenia (because your not allowed to take it out of the country).

Let me see if I understand you correctly: If I lived in India, I wouldn't be able to send money to America if my elderly mother needed medical treatment?

You use the phrase "dead end". I'm afraid there is no such thing. Even though there are small amounts of Armenians in India ... STILL ... the best street in Kolkata is park street (created by Armenians), a part of Kolkata wich was called the Armenian Market is still called the Armenian Market by almost everyone there, our churches there are constantly being renovated, more and more students are going to the Armenian College there, there is lots of money just waiting to be properly used, etc. There is no dead end! There will always be small communities and we won't be forgotten in India and in many other countries no matter how many years pass. The Diaspora will always be there ... especially because of all the hard and GREAT work of the Armenian communities throughout history. We should be taking care of these places and breathing some life into them again ... not ignoring them and worrying about Armenia EIGHTY PERCENT of the time. WHY? Because the Diaspora is not one country! There are tons of countries and communities and I'm afraid 20% just doesn't do it. Hope you understood me correctly.

I hope what you say about the growing Armenian community in India is true.

But you must ponder, how many generations can a diaspora last while keeping its own identity? Diasporas are lucky to have any growth rates, because many of them either stay the same size through time or gradually shrink. Meanwhile, the other ethnic and national groups they live with increase ten-fold. Sounds like a dead-end to me. I'm not saying the diaspora is pointless, because it does well in the time that it survives. I'm speaking more long-term.

You must understand that my idea of a diaspora is a temporary community of co-nationals living in exile, working towards the development of their homeland in the hopes of one day returning to it. If there is limited will to develop one's homeland, and if there is no long-term goal of repatriation, then the diaspora has already thrown away its identity and is a futile entity.

What if we were independent? If we added YEV then, would you still think the way you do now?

We wouldn't have created that letter during any period of independence. We were independent for centuries and never created it, because there was no need to. But within a few short years after Red Army tanks rolled into Armenia, they somehow "evolved" our alphabet. Communists, who reject the idea of nationality, are going to "evolve" a particular nationality's alphabet? This is a red flag for me, and the only reasons I can conjure up for Communist involvement in a national alphabet are all sinister ones.

If the Ottomans had changed the alphabet for western Armenians, even if it was as minor as making "ու" the 39th letter, do you think eastern Armenians would respect those changes? Hell no. And thats how it should be. We would be wise to stick to our fundamental roots instead of leaving it up to our conquerers to decide how we write and interpret our own language.

It doesn't matter WHEN YEV was created. Fact is, it was CREATED and it exists today. You can erase the YEV from your list of Armenian letters on your Armenian calendar but it still won't change the fact that it's a letter ! Today, it is being used and is a part of our grammer and IS a letter. Now, like I said above to Lucin, if you guys don't like this and it's such a mistake, find a way to change that SOON because this letter is becoming more and more important every day. Soon, you won't be able to do anything. Our children will start learning it in schools. Then we'll all just have to live with it which I don't have much of a problem with because YEV isn't just two letters slapped together. You have to learn grammer to understand why, no offense. It's not as pointless as you think. It's maybe not as important as the other letters but it is a letter, like it or not. Ignoring that fact won't change anything...

I never denied that its taught as a letter in Armenia. I simply said I'm disappointed at this reality, for reasons which I've expressed already.

I'm not disappointed at the use of the letter, per se... I'm more disappointed because I think its a symptom of a much bigger problem which we discussed, namely the ignorance of our own history and culture (and indifference towards). Also, the inferiority complex which allows Armenians to rely on our conquerers in regards to aspects of our own culture and language. This is part of the foreign influence which we briefly talked about.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

I'm well aware, and I'm saying this is a good thing and we should increase the investments in our homeland. The diaspora doesn't need help from Armenia to keep itself prosperous, its self-sufficient. So no point in dwelling on the diaspora, which can take care of itself... better to invest in Armenia, which actually needs the help, in order to secure our homeland. The only thing Armenia should do to help the diaspora is to keep a connection with us, and make it easy for us to get involved and make a difference.

Easier said then done, my friend. If we don't invest in the Diaspora ... they won't invest here anymore ! If we don't invest in schools, educate the Diaspora, etc. we won't really get investments anymore. That's why I'm saying, do you know how much money comes from the Diaspora? If you do then we have to do everything to keep that money flowing in. Naturally, I agree with you yekhpayr. We have to pay attention to Armenia but not 80-90% of attention. Like I said, 10% isn't enough for the Diaspora ... which isn't a single country. It's half the world we're talking about here. The Diaspora is huge. Are you sure 10% is enough?

Let me see if I understand you correctly: If I lived in India, I wouldn't be able to send money to America if my elderly mother needed medical treatment?

You could ... just not the money that's been accomulated in the Armenian banks for centuries. You can do whatever you want with YOUR money but not with the money that belonged to the Armenians there. You see, the Indians want that money to be invested in India alone and no matter what anyone says, you can't use it anywhere else in the world. You can't even start to imagine how much money is there so NATURALLY, the Diasporans in India ain't hitting a dead end. For that reason, we have to make sure they stay on the right track. We have to make sure that money is used properly.

I hope what you say about the growing Armenian community in India is true.

Like it or not, it's true !

But you must ponder, how many generations can a diaspora last while keeping its own identity? Diasporas are lucky to have any growth rates, because many of them either stay the same size through time or gradually shrink. Meanwhile, the other ethnic and national groups they live with increase ten-fold. Sounds like a dead-end to me. I'm not saying the diaspora is pointless, because it does well in the time that it survives. I'm speaking more long-term.

You must understand that my idea of a diaspora is a temporary community of co-nationals living in exile, working towards the development of their homeland in the hopes of one day returning to it. If there is limited will to develop one's homeland, and if there is no long-term goal of repatriation, then the diaspora has already thrown away its identity and is a futile entity.

I understand you Arm, but you have to also remember that Armenians left Armenia because of the AG, Soviet rule, and the Kharabagh war. Thousands nowadays don't know anything about Armenia so you can't just say they have no will if they don't invest. For that reason we have to wake them up and to do that, we need to invest a little more of our time and attention. Eventually, the Diaspora may prosper alongside Armenia. There are many Armenians that live elsewhere but come and go every year instead of living here and I'm sure this will continue. For that reason, the Diaspora will never stop being visible and I hope that those living out there will start to at least come and go like thousands of others. That's a part of what I have in mind when I say "golden balance". So don't give up on the Diaspora. Right now, there are still too many question marks. We can't make such big judgment calls like you did. 40-50 years ago, everyone thought the Armenian community in India was dead. Then someone came and restarted everything, opened the College some 30 years ago, etc. and today you can see lot's of Armenians going there more frequently.

MY take on the Diaspora is that it will always turn on and off. It will never end! Sometimes it will be big, sometimes it will be small but it will ALWAYS be there. For that reason, we ALWAYS have to try and create a golden balance. If we don't do it now ... we'll do it later. Trust me. Not everyone will come to Armenia and like it or not, the Diaspora will always be visible so let's at least do something to keep them informed. A little bit more attention could really change things. I see that happening nowadays more and more and I'm really happy. Because of all this, I see teenage Armenians coming in from LA and many other countries nowadays when I hit the city. We have a chancee of balancing everything out because most Armenians live OUTSIDE, not inside.

At the rate we're going, I doubt there will ever be more Armenians in Armenia then in the Diaspora. 70-80% of our people are out there so if you want to change that, we have to pay more attention to them.

My entire point was that your dead-end theory is wrong. The Diaspora will turn on and off and will never disappear one day.

We wouldn't have created that letter during any period of independence.

What if we did though?

I never denied that its taught as a letter in Armenia. I simply said I'm disappointed at this reality, for reasons which I've expressed already.

I'm not disappointed at the use of the letter, per se... I'm more disappointed because I think its a symptom of a much bigger problem which we discussed, namely the ignorance of our own history and culture (and indifference towards). Also, the inferiority complex which allows Armenians to rely on our conquerers in regards to aspects of our own culture and language. This is part of the foreign influence which we briefly talked about.

You make a lot of valid points. Disappointed or not, YEV has become an important letter and I think you should read about it more before thinking it's a letter slapped together. I will too. Then we'll decide whether we want to change that or not. I firmly believe that we have very smart grammarians and in 20 years, a lot has changed but YEV still remained so I can't just say it's a useless letter. There's a reason it's still here and I'll try to understand what that reason is. So far, grammatically, I see how it's being used and I find it handy at times. I will be going to a special seminar today evening and I'll try to bring this issue up. I'm interested in what the people around me will say. Some really smart people will also be coming I've heard.

All the best Arm jan, talk to you later today, always a pleasure to read your posts .

[hipeter924]

Re: Our Identity

Also I would like to add that even if you were Armenian or something 200 or 300 years ago people still remember. Like the same way people remember they were Irish, Welsh, Scottish or something. No one forgets, just gets pre-occupied. So I doubt Armenian's in the diaspora will ever truly forget their roots, and stop sending money or coming back to see their past.

[Sako]

Re: Our Identity

Also I would like to add that even if you were Armenian or something 200 or 300 years ago people still remember. Like the same way people remember they were Irish, Welsh, Scottish or something. No one forgets, just gets pre-occupied. So I doubt Armenian's in the diaspora will ever truly forget their roots, and stop sending money or coming back to see their past.

Basically the Diaspora will turn on and off but will never end.

[ArmSurvival]

Re: Our Identity

Sorry for the late reply Sako.

I understand you Arm, but you have to also remember that Armenians left Armenia because of the AG, Soviet rule, and the Kharabagh war.

Like I was saying earlier, without major catastrophes leading to emigration, the diaspora will not remain intact.

Thousands nowadays don't know anything about Armenia so you can't just say they have no will if they don't invest. For that reason we have to wake them up and to do that, we need to invest a little more of our time and attention. Eventually, the Diaspora may prosper alongside Armenia. There are many Armenians that live elsewhere but come and go every year instead of living here and I'm sure this will continue. For that reason, the Diaspora will never stop being visible and I hope that those living out there will start to at least come and go like thousands of others. That's a part of what I have in mind when I say "golden balance". So don't give up on the Diaspora. Right now, there are still too many question marks.

I said before that Armenia's primary function in its relation with the diaspora should be to keep a connection with it. It can't do much else, nor should it. It should simply facilitate the ease with which diasporans can make an impact in their homeland. It doesn't need to "invest" anything in the diaspora, especially when you're telling me that for example, Indian-Armenians are rich beyond imagination.

40-50 years ago, everyone thought the Armenian community in India was dead. Then someone came and restarted everything, opened the College some 30 years ago, etc. and today you can see lot's of Armenians going there more frequently.

Was that college opened with money from the ROA? Or did a diasporan open it?

MY take on the Diaspora is that it will always turn on and off. It will never end! Sometimes it will be big, sometimes it will be small but it will ALWAYS be there.

Yes, it will shrink due to assimilation, only to be enlarged once again by another catastrophe in the homeland.

My entire point was that your dead-end theory is wrong. The Diaspora will turn on and off and will never disappear one day.

Its not wrong. The diaspora will always be gradually shrinking, only to be temporarily boosted by disasters in the homeland. What happens when there are no Armenians left in the homeland to replenish the diaspora? Our first task needs to be to prevent these catastrophes, and that will require the help of the diaspora. But you can't force people to help. They either do, or they don't. The diaspora can only give itself the resources to resist assimilation, and there is not much Armenia can do in this regard except for playing the role of facilitator for those interested and dedicated diasporans.

If that’s what you mean by “investing” then I totally agree with you. But if you are referring to money or material resources, then I couldn’t disagree more.

I will be going to a special seminar today evening and I'll try to bring this issue up. I'm interested in what the people around me will say. Some really smart people will also be coming I've heard.

What happened?

[Federate]

Re: Our Identity

Like I was saying earlier, without major catastrophes leading to emigration, the diaspora will not remain intact.

Yes, it will shrink due to assimilation, only to be enlarged once again by another catastrophe in the homeland.

Its not wrong. The diaspora will always be gradually shrinking, only to be temporarily boosted by disasters in the homeland. What happens when there are no Armenians left in the homeland to replenish the diaspora? Our first task needs to be to prevent these catastrophes, and that will require the help of the diaspora. But you can't force people to help. They either do, or they don't. The diaspora can only give itself the resources to resist assimilation, and there is not much Armenia can do in this regard except for playing the role of facilitator for those interested and dedicated diasporans.

If that’s what you mean by “investing” then I totally agree with you. But if you are referring to money or material resources, then I couldn’t disagree more.

Quoted for truth. Great to see that many people are finally coming to terms with this sad reality that our, the diaspora's, existence is a ticking clock. In the end within a few generations, there will two options: assimilate or return to the motherland. We should make sure it's the latter and keep one's Armenian heritage alive with the hopes that eventually there will be a return.