Armenia for Armenians

[Federate]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

100 years of Soviet rule, like it or not, has created a cultural divide between Western and Eastern Armenians. However, in order to properly govern a post-Soviet country, one must also understand that Soviet culture which was such a big part of society for 100 years. Also, we can't expect diasporans who have little connection to Armenia to make the best decisions for the country, so any diasporan that does contribute must have a history of connections to the country. You can't just pop into Armenia as your first visit, and say that you are going to be making some changes. You must have lived in Armenia for a while, you must have interacted with the people of Armenia, in order to have a good picture of the society, because the Armenians of Armenia are rather different than the Western Armenians living in diaspora, very different actually.

Unfortunately those very Western Armenians that they want to incorporated are still viewed as outsiders in Armenia, while eastern armenians who go and live like the westerners in foreign countries are received much better.

In all, it's a good idea to bring diaspora close to Armenia, but why should that entail making government decisions for Armenia?

The divide has been quite longer than 100 years (it's actually 70 for USSR) my friend, there has been two (and later three to four) Armenias since the Byzantines and Persians decided to divide us in half centuries ago. To make the divide worse, one side lived under Ottoman yoke while the other lived in Russian yoke later on. Yet time and time again we have resisted this kind of separation and in 1918, 200 000 (if not more) "Western" Armenians settled in the DRA as refugees and "integrated" well, especially in political life (ex: General Andranik, Aram Manukyan etc.) Those refugees decendents can still be found in Armenian political life, such as former PM Andranik Margaryan whose family were refugees from Sasoun during the AG. Even new generations such as Raffi Hovhanissian, who served as Armenia's first FM, can be found in Armenia.

No doubt about it you need an understanding of the country in order to be part of its system, it's the rule for all countries. I doubt anyone will serve in a Senate in the scenario where they have been to Armenia once or twice and decide to run lol. You'll need dual citizenship probably too, anyway. Can't speak for everyone but i'm pretty sure the majority want the old Soviet culture to disappear and it is fading away with the rise of a new generation. Like I said, the Diaspora is one way to speed this slow process up. Anyway, all the talk about making this and that decision is irrelevant, I already pointed out that an upper house has a lot of restrictions and does not have much say over the much more powerful lower house.

To get rid of this view of "outsider" we must stop cultivating this talk about differences and find common ground and I can assure you that we are much more similar than we think. Whether Western Armenians call it Kebab or Eastern Armenians call it Khorovats, it's still the same great meat

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

Armenian Diaspora has large and extensive experience and knowledge in world politics, UN, and the codes of conduct in this political world. Since its independence Armenia has not cashed in on this vast advantage or made any attempts to unite the Armenians to any capacity. Most of the Armenian Government deligates who travel to Europe and US representing Armenia are, sorry to say, out to lunch and embarassing in their technics and knowledge base.

Armenian Diasporan intellectuals are very well aware what challenges we face in world community and how we are being washed away by our enemies systematically without representation or a central leadership (not to mention our envy and almost hate for each other in different communities) because of our disunity and lack of proper leadership (other than religious creed).

We have to be able as a Nation to contribute to the political process and know how to play the game. We are an embarasment when it comes to that and this is why we will always be pushed aside.
This is where that political clout and critical mass therory comes. We must learn from our intellectuals, they have the answers, we need the will and to get excited.

We all claim to be patriots.....where is that trigger?

[Federate]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

Minister Outlines Plans to Include Diaspora Armenians in Legislature


BURBANK—President Serzh Sarkisian wants to propose a constitutional amendment, which would create two parliamentary houses, one of which will allow Diaspora Armenians to be part of the legislature, announced Diaspora Minister Hranoush Hakopyan during a meeting with community members Sunday at Arbat Gloden Palace organized by the Consulate General of Armenia to Los Angeles.

Hakopyan’s explanation that the proposed upper house of the legislature would allow Diaspora Armenians to serve as representatives was met with applause and excitement by the audience.

“In assessing the issue, the president of Armenia has come to the conclusion, and is making suggestions, that yes, certain changes within the governing structure of Armenia are needed to allow Diaspora Armenians to be part of Armenia’s government,” explained Hakopyan.

The minister explained that “it is not a coincidence that we want to make changes to Armenia’s constitution” to create two house of the parliament, with the upper house—the Senate—including representatives from the Diaspora.

“Today, I witnessed the excitement by our California-Armenian community about the creation of the Senate,” said Hakopyan.

“The first step by the president was the creation of the Diaspora Ministry, through which substantive policies for Armenia-Diaspora relations were put forth. The second was the establishment of the dual-citizenship institution, and clearly we are taking the third step by creating the upper house through which the Diaspora Armenian will have a voice in the governing of the country and in creating policy,” explained Hakopyan.

In response to Hakopyan’s statements, Armenia’s presidential spokesman Armen Arzoumanyan told Panoram news agency that during the spring 2010 meeting of the Hayastan Armenia Fund board meeting discussions were had on expanding Diaspora-Armenia cooperation and board members were tasked to present recommendations in a year’s time.

Arzoumanyan said that amending the constitution was a very responsible step and it requires extensive discussion and expert input before implementation.

During the reception Sunday evening, organized by the Consulate General of Armenia to Los Angeles, Hakopyan awarded a medal to long-time community activist and benefactor Vahe Karapetyan.

The minister also briefed the gathering about the upcoming activities of the ministry, the realization of which, she said, required participation by the California Armenian community.

http://asbarez.com/92695/minister-outlines-plans-to-include-diaspora-armenians-in-legislature/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Asbarez+%28Asbarez+News%29&utm_content=Twitter

[Mos]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

The divide has been quite longer than 100 years (it's actually 70 for USSR) my friend, there has been two (and later three to four) Armenias since the Byzantines and Persians decided to divide us in half centuries ago. To make the divide worse, one side lived under Ottoman yoke while the other lived in Russian yoke later on. Yet time and time again we have resisted this kind of separation and in 1918, 200 000 (if not more) "Western" Armenians settled in the DRA as refugees and "integrated" well, especially in political life (ex: General Andranik, Aram Manukyan etc.) Those refugees decendents can still be found in Armenian political life, such as former PM Andranik Margaryan whose family were refugees from Sasoun during the AG. Even new generations such as Raffi Hovhanissian, who served as Armenia's first FM, can be found in Armenia.

No doubt about it you need an understanding of the country in order to be part of its system, it's the rule for all countries. I doubt anyone will serve in a Senate in the scenario where they have been to Armenia once or twice and decide to run lol. You'll need dual citizenship probably too, anyway. Can't speak for everyone but i'm pretty sure the majority want the old Soviet culture to disappear and it is fading away with the rise of a new generation. Like I said, the Diaspora is one way to speed this slow process up. Anyway, all the talk about making this and that decision is irrelevant, I already pointed out that an upper house has a lot of restrictions and does not have much say over the much more powerful lower house.

To get rid of this view of "outsider" we must stop cultivating this talk about differences and find common ground and I can assure you that we are much more similar than we think. Whether Western Armenians call it Kebab or Eastern Armenians call it Khorovats, it's still the same great meat

You must remember that the world is becoming more global, and with that ethnic groups are also becoming much more unified in their identity, rather than being heavily divided in regionalism. The divide between Western and Eastern Armenians is quite interesting I must say however, and in my opinion some of the effects that Soviet culture has had on Armenian identity, is not really changeable. There are just things that are very hard to change, and have truly changed Armenian society altogether.

I remember one time I was at a Armenian church in America, and after the patarag, in the hall way there were two groups of Armenians talking, one side it was us, talking in eastern armenian, mixing russian words, with some people who were also hayastanci, and on the other side, western armenians, mostly taking in english and mixing a few armenian words here and there. The contrast there was just so vivid, and that's not the first time I've seen that sort of division in social situations. Many hayastanics have easier time spending time with Russians, and other post-soviet people than Western armenians, in general there is just more in common with the post soviet people and the references are more understandable, and I say this from experience both personal and observed.

So this divide is real, and it's not as simple as a few different words, it's a whole different mentality. We have the same fundamental armenian culture, but on top of it we have so much other influences that it has made that armenian layer blurry. Before approaching the issue of involving diasporans in armenia's affairs, we have to a deal with this undeniable divide.

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

I don't think when we say unity it means we do everything together or that there will be one leader (or just a few) who will represent all Diasporans, Eastern/Western/ or Armenians in Armenia.
What it means is that we must (we really have no choice anymore unless we want to parish) put our differences aside and unite on our comon cause, ONE CAUSE. Some differences are healthy in decision making process but we must remember that at the end of the day we/our leaders all must come to some type of agreement, have a single freaking voice directed at the world.....not like what we do know like bunch a scatterbrains, where it makes us look like bunch of fools and our enemies happy, not to mention it gives them amo against us.

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

This is so great news,we should be proud,look at the positive side,not only diaspora armenians will be more aware and beneficial but also for the country host of any community bringing the nations closer and friendlier with more understanding to armenia.

[jgk3]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

You must remember that the world is becoming more global, and with that ethnic groups are also becoming much more unified in their identity, rather than being heavily divided in regionalism. The divide between Western and Eastern Armenians is quite interesting I must say however, and in my opinion some of the effects that Soviet culture has had on Armenian identity, is not really changeable. There are just things that are very hard to change, and have truly changed Armenian society altogether.

I remember one time I was at a Armenian church in America, and after the patarag, in the hall way there were two groups of Armenians talking, one side it was us, talking in eastern armenian, mixing russian words, with some people who were also hayastanci, and on the other side, western armenians, mostly taking in english and mixing a few armenian words here and there. The contrast there was just so vivid, and that's not the first time I've seen that sort of division in social situations. Many hayastanics have easier time spending time with Russians, and other post-soviet people than Western armenians, in general there is just more in common with the post soviet people and the references are more understandable, and I say this from experience both personal and observed.

So this divide is real, and it's not as simple as a few different words, it's a whole different mentality. We have the same fundamental armenian culture, but on top of it we have so much other influences that it has made that armenian layer blurry. Before approaching the issue of involving diasporans in armenia's affairs, we have to a deal with this undeniable divide.

In my church (whose regulars are mostly Western Armenians, but we have a Hayastanci priest and some Hayastantsis who sing in the choir and help out, etc...) most Western Armenians speak Western Armenian, both to eachother and to Eastern Armenians, who answer back in Eastern Armenian, and speak in Eastern Armenian amongst themselves. Everyone more or less understands eachother. That is the ideal situation in my opinion, where differences of background are not confined to two distinct groups, but pooled together to a single one.

And might I add, if our church had members who engaged in this "sticking with their own crowd", I'm sure within the Western Armenian group, the Lebanese Armenians would have their own clique, while the Istanbul Armenians formed another. But that is not the case at all, we've put our differences aside and embrace eachothers presence in our church, so that our community can exist.

[Federate]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

You must remember that the world is becoming more global, and with that ethnic groups are also becoming much more unified in their identity, rather than being heavily divided in regionalism. The divide between Western and Eastern Armenians is quite interesting I must say however, and in my opinion some of the effects that Soviet culture has had on Armenian identity, is not really changeable. There are just things that are very hard to change, and have truly changed Armenian society altogether.

I remember one time I was at a Armenian church in America, and after the patarag, in the hall way there were two groups of Armenians talking, one side it was us, talking in eastern armenian, mixing russian words, with some people who were also hayastanci, and on the other side, western armenians, mostly taking in english and mixing a few armenian words here and there. The contrast there was just so vivid, and that's not the first time I've seen that sort of division in social situations. Many hayastanics have easier time spending time with Russians, and other post-soviet people than Western armenians, in general there is just more in common with the post soviet people and the references are more understandable, and I say this from experience both personal and observed.

So this divide is real, and it's not as simple as a few different words, it's a whole different mentality. We have the same fundamental armenian culture, but on top of it we have so much other influences that it has made that armenian layer blurry. Before approaching the issue of involving diasporans in armenia's affairs, we have to a deal with this undeniable divide.

If globalisation is indeed unifying people then "Western" and "Eastern" Armenians would not have a problem with getting along. What exactly are some of these things which in your opinion are very hard to "change"?

Nobody is denying there are some differences, that is only natural when you live apart or in foreign countries for a long period of time. But the question is whether this impedes one's ability to integrate into Armenia's way of life or to learn and adapt and eventually positively influence the political culture in the country. I know quite a few Western Armenian repats since the collapse of the USSR who have no problem with the locals and have made many friends there and continue to live there. If Raffi Hovhanissian who was raised in USA successfully entered Armenian politics right after the collapse and became the FM, i'm certain there are countless other who will have no problem running for Senate.

Your church example again is a question of language and assimilation, something that affects both communities when they leave the motherland. Do you think someone who does not know or doesn't speak Armenian would even bother to move to Armenia, let alone serve in the Senate or let alone be appointed in the Senate? Most "Western" Armenians I know speak Armenian with each other though the lack of usage of Armenian among the youth is a problem within all communities outside the motherland. Do references really matter? References to what? Inside jokes about how bad Soviet life was? How hard is it for "Western" Armenians to learn what a "samalyot" is even though it would be cool if the "Western" Armenian starts only using "inknatir/otanav" and this catches on with his "Eastern" friends and we finally get rid of that ugly word?

The differences in the end are pretty trivial and will eventually die out with the old Soviet generation. The main problem we face now is not these petty differences but getting Armenians to move back at all. It's a slow process and time is against us.

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

But regardless, even if the upper chamber is established and Diasporans are allowed in, they would most probably require at least dual citizenship. And the upper chamber is hardly something that makes many decisions in a country anyway, it has limited powers. In many countries, Senators are appointed (as opposed to elected) as well so there's a grand possibility that the President or PM would be calling the shots on who gets a job in it and you can bet they'll be careful on who they choose.
.

It is a great start nonetheless, Diasporans can bring may great things to the table. They can create many none governmental organizations who can help Armenia proper and be used by Armenia itself as proxies pushing their interests in different countries around the world where the Armenian Diasporans have a political base (and growing). It is a great way to channel power to say the least.

With that said there also might be a question of trust from both sides.....Diasporans worried about Russian influence in Armenia's afairs, and Armenia worried about Wstern influence on Diasporans.
Anyway they better make it work.

[Nare]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

Let me clarify, first of all.

-My opposition is to Dashnak politics and their counterparts who make up a minority in the Armenian government. Many people in Armenia are anti-Dashnak politics and this doesn't make them an enemy.

-My opposition to certain dashnak elements in the Armenian diaspora.

-I recognize the help that dashnaks have provided to Armenia, especially during Karabakh war, but I still reserve the right to criticize them for other actions that they've done.

-ASALA hurt us badly, there's no excuse in supporting them and it's a real shame that people calling themselves Armenians resorted to such brutal terrorism

-Genocide recognition is important to us, but it should be done in a civilized manner, not done by smear campaigns or bloodhunts. Turkey needs to come to terms with its past and recognize that it has built a whole identity based on lies. But in addition to this, sooner or later we will have to establish normal contact with Turks as they are not going anywhere and we need a stable region.

-There is a rift between Western and Eastern Armenians, like it or not. The biggest difference is the Soviet mentality and culture which is well existent in Eastern Armenians who identify themselves with post-Soviet people more than anybody else, while for Westerns they identify themselves more with middle east and Muslims. I can attest to this rift, in how natives Armenians in Armenia interact with Western Armenians and I must say the relationship is rather cold, and they don't seem to be part of the same group just from viewing their relationships.

-I recognize the goods things the Diaspora does for Armenia, after all almost every family in Armenia has a family member in the diaspora. Without diaspora, Armenia would be in much worse situation. Remember, Dashnaks =/= Diaspora.

-I am an Armenian who cares about the development and survival of a strong Armenia and I believe without a meaningful connection to the motherland, it is very hard to speak for all Armenians. I won't generalise, but I will say there are Armenians who never set foot in Armenia, or know very little, and speak as if they can speak for all of Armenians. Are they familiar with the Soviet mentality and cultural situation of Armenia, and rest of Armenians? This is very important.

and finally, the point of this thread is not about dashnaks or western armenians, but about the demographic situation of Armenia and the threat of an influx of immigrant from Iran and other similar countries.

Recently Jirayr Sefilyan stated that during Artsakh liberation war Diaspora ARF leaders only sent 2% of Dashnaks and it was due to their struggle for power...

And that's true, most people in Armenia don't like Dashnaks to say the least...