Armenia for Armenians

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

Ho Hi Ta

[londontsi]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

Ho Hi Ta

Political parties should never be treated like a football team.

Its not about loyalty to a party and following it like a sheep.

It should be far more judgmental with a critical view.

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

Ho Hi Ta

[londontsi]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

...... most people in Armenia don't like Dashnaks to say the least...

I do not think you understand what Dashnak is .
Its not about red men and green men or any other non Armenians.
( Do not worry since most Armenian have the same shortcoming).

Dashnagtsutyun is a political party.
Its a purveyor of ideas about national leadership. The same applies for all other political parties.

Throughout its history of existence it has tried to lead the nation ( more correctly its followers)
depending of its then leadership, the political, security and economic environment, no different
than any other party would or did.

NOW, I am not saying they were always right no party ever is.
That is their history and they will have to live with it.

In a democracy a political party is judged from what it represents, its policies, its actions,
effectives in communicating its ideas to the (whole) electorate and generally gaining their trust.

Its not about mistakes that were done by a different leaders in different historical settings.

If you look at the history and origin of political parties in mature democracies you will understand my points better.

[Nare]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

Let me clarify, first of all.

-My opposition is to Dashnak politics and their counterparts who make up a minority in the Armenian government. Many people in Armenia are anti-Dashnak politics and this doesn't make them an enemy.

-My opposition to certain dashnak elements in the Armenian diaspora.

-I recognize the help that dashnaks have provided to Armenia, especially during Karabakh war, but I still reserve the right to criticize them for other actions that they've done.

-ASALA hurt us badly, there's no excuse in supporting them and it's a real shame that people calling themselves Armenians resorted to such brutal terrorism

-Genocide recognition is important to us, but it should be done in a civilized manner, not done by smear campaigns or bloodhunts. Turkey needs to come to terms with its past and recognize that it has built a whole identity based on lies. But in addition to this, sooner or later we will have to establish normal contact with Turks as they are not going anywhere and we need a stable region.

-There is a rift between Western and Eastern Armenians, like it or not. The biggest difference is the Soviet mentality and culture which is well existent in Eastern Armenians who identify themselves with post-Soviet people more than anybody else, while for Westerns they identify themselves more with middle east and Muslims. I can attest to this rift, in how natives Armenians in Armenia interact with Western Armenians and I must say the relationship is rather cold, and they don't seem to be part of the same group just from viewing their relationships.

-I recognize the goods things the Diaspora does for Armenia, after all almost every family in Armenia has a family member in the diaspora. Without diaspora, Armenia would be in much worse situation. Remember, Dashnaks =/= Diaspora.

-I am an Armenian who cares about the development and survival of a strong Armenia and I believe without a meaningful connection to the motherland, it is very hard to speak for all Armenians. I won't generalise, but I will say there are Armenians who never set foot in Armenia, or know very little, and speak as if they can speak for all of Armenians. Are they familiar with the Soviet mentality and cultural situation of Armenia, and rest of Armenians? This is very important.

and finally, the point of this thread is not about dashnaks or western armenians, but about the demographic situation of Armenia and the threat of an influx of immigrant from Iran and other similar countries.

Recently Jirayr Sefilyan stated that during Artsakh liberation war Diaspora ARF leaders only sent 2% of Dashnaks and it was due to their struggle for power...

And that's true, most people in Armenia don't like Dashnaks to say the least...

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

But regardless, even if the upper chamber is established and Diasporans are allowed in, they would most probably require at least dual citizenship. And the upper chamber is hardly something that makes many decisions in a country anyway, it has limited powers. In many countries, Senators are appointed (as opposed to elected) as well so there's a grand possibility that the President or PM would be calling the shots on who gets a job in it and you can bet they'll be careful on who they choose.
.

It is a great start nonetheless, Diasporans can bring may great things to the table. They can create many none governmental organizations who can help Armenia proper and be used by Armenia itself as proxies pushing their interests in different countries around the world where the Armenian Diasporans have a political base (and growing). It is a great way to channel power to say the least.

With that said there also might be a question of trust from both sides.....Diasporans worried about Russian influence in Armenia's afairs, and Armenia worried about Wstern influence on Diasporans.
Anyway they better make it work.

[Federate]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

You must remember that the world is becoming more global, and with that ethnic groups are also becoming much more unified in their identity, rather than being heavily divided in regionalism. The divide between Western and Eastern Armenians is quite interesting I must say however, and in my opinion some of the effects that Soviet culture has had on Armenian identity, is not really changeable. There are just things that are very hard to change, and have truly changed Armenian society altogether.

I remember one time I was at a Armenian church in America, and after the patarag, in the hall way there were two groups of Armenians talking, one side it was us, talking in eastern armenian, mixing russian words, with some people who were also hayastanci, and on the other side, western armenians, mostly taking in english and mixing a few armenian words here and there. The contrast there was just so vivid, and that's not the first time I've seen that sort of division in social situations. Many hayastanics have easier time spending time with Russians, and other post-soviet people than Western armenians, in general there is just more in common with the post soviet people and the references are more understandable, and I say this from experience both personal and observed.

So this divide is real, and it's not as simple as a few different words, it's a whole different mentality. We have the same fundamental armenian culture, but on top of it we have so much other influences that it has made that armenian layer blurry. Before approaching the issue of involving diasporans in armenia's affairs, we have to a deal with this undeniable divide.

If globalisation is indeed unifying people then "Western" and "Eastern" Armenians would not have a problem with getting along. What exactly are some of these things which in your opinion are very hard to "change"?

Nobody is denying there are some differences, that is only natural when you live apart or in foreign countries for a long period of time. But the question is whether this impedes one's ability to integrate into Armenia's way of life or to learn and adapt and eventually positively influence the political culture in the country. I know quite a few Western Armenian repats since the collapse of the USSR who have no problem with the locals and have made many friends there and continue to live there. If Raffi Hovhanissian who was raised in USA successfully entered Armenian politics right after the collapse and became the FM, i'm certain there are countless other who will have no problem running for Senate.

Your church example again is a question of language and assimilation, something that affects both communities when they leave the motherland. Do you think someone who does not know or doesn't speak Armenian would even bother to move to Armenia, let alone serve in the Senate or let alone be appointed in the Senate? Most "Western" Armenians I know speak Armenian with each other though the lack of usage of Armenian among the youth is a problem within all communities outside the motherland. Do references really matter? References to what? Inside jokes about how bad Soviet life was? How hard is it for "Western" Armenians to learn what a "samalyot" is even though it would be cool if the "Western" Armenian starts only using "inknatir/otanav" and this catches on with his "Eastern" friends and we finally get rid of that ugly word?

The differences in the end are pretty trivial and will eventually die out with the old Soviet generation. The main problem we face now is not these petty differences but getting Armenians to move back at all. It's a slow process and time is against us.

[jgk3]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

You must remember that the world is becoming more global, and with that ethnic groups are also becoming much more unified in their identity, rather than being heavily divided in regionalism. The divide between Western and Eastern Armenians is quite interesting I must say however, and in my opinion some of the effects that Soviet culture has had on Armenian identity, is not really changeable. There are just things that are very hard to change, and have truly changed Armenian society altogether.

I remember one time I was at a Armenian church in America, and after the patarag, in the hall way there were two groups of Armenians talking, one side it was us, talking in eastern armenian, mixing russian words, with some people who were also hayastanci, and on the other side, western armenians, mostly taking in english and mixing a few armenian words here and there. The contrast there was just so vivid, and that's not the first time I've seen that sort of division in social situations. Many hayastanics have easier time spending time with Russians, and other post-soviet people than Western armenians, in general there is just more in common with the post soviet people and the references are more understandable, and I say this from experience both personal and observed.

So this divide is real, and it's not as simple as a few different words, it's a whole different mentality. We have the same fundamental armenian culture, but on top of it we have so much other influences that it has made that armenian layer blurry. Before approaching the issue of involving diasporans in armenia's affairs, we have to a deal with this undeniable divide.

In my church (whose regulars are mostly Western Armenians, but we have a Hayastanci priest and some Hayastantsis who sing in the choir and help out, etc...) most Western Armenians speak Western Armenian, both to eachother and to Eastern Armenians, who answer back in Eastern Armenian, and speak in Eastern Armenian amongst themselves. Everyone more or less understands eachother. That is the ideal situation in my opinion, where differences of background are not confined to two distinct groups, but pooled together to a single one.

And might I add, if our church had members who engaged in this "sticking with their own crowd", I'm sure within the Western Armenian group, the Lebanese Armenians would have their own clique, while the Istanbul Armenians formed another. But that is not the case at all, we've put our differences aside and embrace eachothers presence in our church, so that our community can exist.

[UrMistake]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

This is so great news,we should be proud,look at the positive side,not only diaspora armenians will be more aware and beneficial but also for the country host of any community bringing the nations closer and friendlier with more understanding to armenia.

[Eddo211]

Re: Armenia for Armenians

I don't think when we say unity it means we do everything together or that there will be one leader (or just a few) who will represent all Diasporans, Eastern/Western/ or Armenians in Armenia.
What it means is that we must (we really have no choice anymore unless we want to parish) put our differences aside and unite on our comon cause, ONE CAUSE. Some differences are healthy in decision making process but we must remember that at the end of the day we/our leaders all must come to some type of agreement, have a single freaking voice directed at the world.....not like what we do know like bunch a scatterbrains, where it makes us look like bunch of fools and our enemies happy, not to mention it gives them amo against us.