Announcement

Collapse

Forum Rules (Everyone Must Read!!!)

1] What you CAN NOT post.

You agree, through your use of this service, that you will not use this forum to post any material which is:
- abusive
- vulgar
- hateful
- harassing
- personal attacks
- obscene

You also may not:
- post images that are too large (max is 500*500px)
- post any copyrighted material unless the copyright is owned by you or cited properly.
- post in UPPER CASE, which is considered yelling
- post messages which insult the Armenians, Armenian culture, traditions, etc
- post racist or other intentionally insensitive material that insults or attacks another culture (including Turks)

The Ankap thread is excluded from the strict rules because that place is more relaxed and you can vent and engage in light insults and humor. Notice it's not a blank ticket, but just a place to vent. If you go into the Ankap thread, you enter at your own risk of being clowned on.
What you PROBABLY SHOULD NOT post...
Do not post information that you will regret putting out in public. This site comes up on Google, is cached, and all of that, so be aware of that as you post. Do not ask the staff to go through and delete things that you regret making available on the web for all to see because we will not do it. Think before you post!


2] Use descriptive subject lines & research your post. This means use the SEARCH.

This reduces the chances of double-posting and it also makes it easier for people to see what they do/don't want to read. Using the search function will identify existing threads on the topic so we do not have multiple threads on the same topic.

3] Keep the focus.

Each forum has a focus on a certain topic. Questions outside the scope of a certain forum will either be moved to the appropriate forum, closed, or simply be deleted. Please post your topic in the most appropriate forum. Users that keep doing this will be warned, then banned.

4] Behave as you would in a public location.

This forum is no different than a public place. Behave yourself and act like a decent human being (i.e. be respectful). If you're unable to do so, you're not welcome here and will be made to leave.

5] Respect the authority of moderators/admins.

Public discussions of moderator/admin actions are not allowed on the forum. It is also prohibited to protest moderator actions in titles, avatars, and signatures. If you don't like something that a moderator did, PM or email the moderator and try your best to resolve the problem or difference in private.

6] Promotion of sites or products is not permitted.

Advertisements are not allowed in this venue. No blatant advertising or solicitations of or for business is prohibited.
This includes, but not limited to, personal resumes and links to products or
services with which the poster is affiliated, whether or not a fee is charged
for the product or service. Spamming, in which a user posts the same message repeatedly, is also prohibited.

7] We retain the right to remove any posts and/or Members for any reason, without prior notice.


- PLEASE READ -

Members are welcome to read posts and though we encourage your active participation in the forum, it is not required. If you do participate by posting, however, we expect that on the whole you contribute something to the forum. This means that the bulk of your posts should not be in "fun" threads (e.g. Ankap, Keep & Kill, This or That, etc.). Further, while occasionally it is appropriate to simply voice your agreement or approval, not all of your posts should be of this variety: "LOL Member213!" "I agree."
If it is evident that a member is simply posting for the sake of posting, they will be removed.


8] These Rules & Guidelines may be amended at any time. (last update September 17, 2009)

If you believe an individual is repeatedly breaking the rules, please report to admin/moderator.
See more
See less

What if Armenians were Muslim?

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • jgk3
    replied
    Re: What if Armenians were Muslim?

    You have to see our early defense of Christianity against the Sasanids in the battle of Avarayr as a defense of a Western orientation by Armenians, a defense of Hellenistic culture (which the Arshakunis were fond of), Christ was just its adopted archetype. You can see this clearly in the decision of Armenians in the 5th century AD choosing to base their most important translations on Greek manuscripts rather than Syriac, which was both more local and likely better understood by the Armenian literate class, as it was the lingua franca in the region during the Parthian period. It was not Christianity for its own sake that they were after, it was Hellenism. The thing with Armenia after the fall of Byzantine power is that it became an island of this western hellenophilia in matters more powerful than the design of columns and the style used for making statues: religion. And in a sea of Islam. No longer was Armenia's identity visible as a tug of war between Greeks and Persians, which is essentially the basis for much of our religious and cultural history, but as an island stubbornly resisting conversion as always to whatever is mainstream, in this case, Islam.

    Under Arab rule, the Armenians even chose to ally themselves with an Arab orientation at least politically during the 7th-9th centuries, and flourished under its protection, though Arab emirs started to show up in Armenia and ruled peasants much as the Nakharars did, and brought their language and culture with them (though the borrowings in Armenian from Arabic never reached vernacular status, and entered the Armenian language just as easily as they left it).

    But it was also during this time that Armenians developed most of the theological framework of their Christianity, as now they were safely cut off from the Greeks, always seeking to assimilate the Armenians to their religion. Under Arab rule, Armenians were finally able to feel secure with their own religious historiography as a distinctly Armenian phenomenon: the coast was finally clear for them to associate Christianity with Armenian-ness without worrying about being invaded by Greeks for not norming in all the tenets adopted by their Church in Constantinople, a very serious one being their desire for Greek to be the language used for the divine liturgy (basically attempts at assimilating the divergent Oriental Orthodox Churches, including the Armenian Apostolic Church).

    If it were not for the rise of the Bagratunis, Armenia would have been missing the subsequent 300 years of history which followed Arab rule where we were truly politically autonomous, and had our own center of religion that had the power to assimilate non-Armenians. We would have a completely different history if that never happened: we would likely have had many more Muslim Armenians today as the emirs present in Armenia during Arab rule would have never left, their legacy would continue uninterrupted during Seljuk rule.
    Last edited by jgk3; 03-16-2011, 05:51 AM.

    Leave a comment:


  • Armanen
    replied
    Re: What if Armenians were Muslim?

    Originally posted by Mos View Post
    Remember there are many more Muslim Georgians than Muslim Armenians (which there really aren't except Hemshins but they aren't integrated into Armenian society). I wouldn't say we have a significant amount of Islamic influence in comparison to Georgians, that's just how I see it.
    I never used the word significant. I said relative. Armenians were more hardcore about their religious beliefs than the georgians It was our people who fought the first war in history to defend Christianity, the first Crusade if you will.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mos
    replied
    Re: What if Armenians were Muslim?

    Originally posted by Armanen View Post
    BTW: I am not arguing here that georgians have given more to European culture or are more European, just that we have had relatively more islamic influence than they have.
    Remember there are many more Muslim Georgians than Muslim Armenians (which there really aren't except Hemshins but they aren't integrated into Armenian society). I wouldn't say we have a significant amount of Islamic influence in comparison to Georgians, that's just how I see it.

    Leave a comment:


  • Armanen
    replied
    Re: What if Armenians were Muslim?

    Originally posted by Mos View Post
    I've seen in those stupid Armenian soap operas people kiss. Of course no sexual scenes, but kissing I've seen. When it comes to food, I was recently at a Georgia restaurant an their foods seem to have just as much "middle eastern" influence as ours do, maybe give or take few dishes, especially for Western Armenians.

    I don't know what you are getting at with the coffee and tea argument. So us liking to drink coffee rather than tea makes us more arabic influenced?

    Yes, tea was the popular drink of Armenians before the 1940s. It came from Armenians who repatriated during the 40s from Syria, Lebanon, and other Arab states.

    The kissing is recent, it was not long ago that they didn't show this on tv. BTW: I am not arguing here that georgians have given more to European culture or are more European, just that we have had relatively more islamic influence than they have.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mos
    replied
    Re: What if Armenians were Muslim?

    Originally posted by Armanen View Post
    Eastern Armenians were under Persian rule until the early 1800s. So it is true for both, give or take a 100 years.

    I cited the example of georgian tv being more liberal in that they show a man and women kissing on their tv shows, where as in Armenia it is considered 'amot'. The foods we eat, some of them are of arabic origin, we have incorporated this more than georgians, and Western Armenians even more than Eastern Armenians. Coffee become popular because of Armenians who lived in Arab countries emigrated to Armenia. Before that tea was more popular.
    I've seen in those stupid Armenian soap operas people kiss. Of course no sexual scenes, but kissing I've seen. When it comes to food, I was recently at a Georgia restaurant an their foods seem to have just as much "middle eastern" influence as ours do, maybe give or take few dishes, especially for Western Armenians.

    I don't know what you are getting at with the coffee and tea argument. So us liking to drink coffee rather than tea makes us more arabic influenced?

    Leave a comment:


  • Armanen
    replied
    Re: What if Armenians were Muslim?

    Originally posted by Mos View Post
    Maybe that's more true for Western Armenians, but I'm not so sure same can be said about Eastern Armenians which make up Armenia.

    Though when you talk about "rubbing off" what aspects are you talking about specifically?
    Eastern Armenians were under Persian rule until the early 1800s. So it is true for both, give or take a 100 years.

    I cited the example of georgian tv being more liberal in that they show a man and women kissing on their tv shows, where as in Armenia it is considered 'amot'. The foods we eat, some of them are of arabic origin, we have incorporated this more than georgians, and Western Armenians even more than Eastern Armenians. Coffee become popular because of Armenians who lived in Arab countries emigrated to Armenia. Before that tea was more popular.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mos
    replied
    Re: What if Armenians were Muslim?

    Originally posted by Armanen View Post
    PR part I agree, my main point was that Armenians have lived with islamic peoples longer and it has rubbed off. You can deny this if you want but the facts remain the facts.
    Maybe that's more true for Western Armenians, but I'm not so sure same can be said about Eastern Armenians which make up Armenia.

    Though when you talk about "rubbing off" what aspects are you talking about specifically?

    Leave a comment:


  • Armanen
    replied
    Re: What if Armenians were Muslim?

    Originally posted by Mos View Post
    Us being under Islamic rule doesn't mean we turned more "Islamic". Actually we have been very resilient under foreign rule in keeping our identity and religion intact. Georgia is just better at PR than us, that's why people are fooled that they are some forgotten European nation or something.
    PR part I agree, my main point was that Armenians have lived with islamic peoples longer and it has rubbed off. You can deny this if you want but the facts remain the facts.

    Leave a comment:


  • Mos
    replied
    Re: What if Armenians were Muslim?

    Originally posted by Armanen View Post
    A case can be made for what you argue, regardless, Armenians and georgians have much in common, more so than either does with the Germans for example. I would add that while Armenians have had closer ties with the western Europeans than the georgians, that Armenia was under islamic rule longer than georgia, and unlike georgia, we didn't keep our royal dynasty till modern times, they did.
    Us being under Islamic rule doesn't mean we turned more "Islamic". Actually we have been very resilient under foreign rule in keeping our identity and religion intact. Georgia is just better at PR than us, that's why people are fooled that they are some forgotten European nation or something.

    Leave a comment:


  • Armanen
    replied
    Re: What if Armenians were Muslim?

    Originally posted by Mos View Post
    I would argue the opposite. We've had more contact with Europe throughout our history than Georgians, and Georgians really were just an offshoot of the us, and really much of their culture is heavily influenced or taken from us. Heck we gave them their alphabet for starters. Though Georgians also have similarities to Chechens. They try to display themselves as a Northwestern european country, and have good PR to do so, but the truth still remains behind all that advertising.

    It's unfortunate that current geopolitics have set us apart, at least strategically, but what can you do, as I've said before, countries need to take their self-interest and geopolitical interests as priorities in foreign policy.

    A case can be made for what you argue, regardless, Armenians and georgians have much in common, more so than either does with the Germans for example. I would add that while Armenians have had closer ties with the western Europeans than the georgians, that Armenia was under islamic rule longer than georgia, and unlike georgia, we didn't keep our royal dynasty till modern times, they did.

    Actually, georgia is not taking their long term strategic interests to heart, otherwise they would not have attacked S. Ossetia, continue to piss of their northern neighbor, mistreat their minority groups (that's what led to them losing Abkhazia and S. Ossetia), and they would not cooporate so closely with a neo-imperialistic nation, like turkey.

    Once a more pro-Moscow government comes to power in tiflis, and the highway connecting Iran to georgia via Armenia is complete, we may see solid signs of georgian-Armenian-Iranian cooperation with the blessing of official Moscow of course. The ideal for the south caucasus would be for azerbaijan, Armenia, and georgia to form a close open market union, similar to the Benelux nations. None of the three countries can get ahead far unless they work together, or one of them disappears from the map or is severly weakened. I am not holding my breath for any union or confederation to occur, but I do predict closer relations between Armenia and georgia should there be a new government in tiflis.
    Last edited by Armanen; 03-10-2011, 09:52 PM.

    Leave a comment:

Working...
X