Turkish penal code: say Armenian Genocide is true --> go to jail

[karakitap]

So are you saying the article on the Kurds is a lie, and completely fake? Because I beleive the corruption in Turkey is Turkey's and the people's problem. However the Turkish army displacing innocent people and killing them out of anger and pleasure is a humanitarian problem. However the corrupt gov't undoubtedly has correlations with the Kurd problem. I beleive the Kurdish problem is a more realistic claim as you put it. Because I am not trying to make you mad. I am simply saying, Turkey who is doing exactly the same thing now to the Kurds, as it did to the Armenians proves that Turkey has a criminal history, and was completely capable of the Armenian Genocide. That is Pointing at Kurds, displacing Kurds, Killing Kurds, then denying that anything happened.
Try actually reading the article.

Yes actually it is taotally a lie and fake. I assure you no Kurd is dying, I live in Turkey. But of course if you want to believe soething I can't proove you the opposite. Come on think about Turkey-EU accession negotiations is starting. How can you consifer that "Turkish government is killing Kurds" stories?
I'm still not sure whether you claim these stories just to offense and make me angry or do you really believe them? If second, then you have a serious mental problem.

[Thai-Samurai]

Oh so very true

Nope, sorry dude the article is very true.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2005/turkey0305/

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/07/turkey10261.htm

[Here's the challenge. Read this post. Check out the links, and then do a good job denying or excusing everything that is mentioned. If you insult me in some way, and/or change the topic you lose:]

"Unlawful Killings by Security Forces
In addition to security concerns arising from the village guard system, attacks on civilians by the gendarmerie discourage return. Three unlawful killings by security forces in late 2004, underscored the continued potential for lethal state violence against civilians in general, and IDPs in particular.

On November 21, security forces shot dead Ahmet Kaymaz, a villager displaced from Köprülü village in Mardin province, and his twelve-year-old son Uğur Kaymaz in the nearby town of Kızıltepe.15 Neighbors told the Human Rights Association of Turkey (HRA) that Kaymaz and his son had been preparing their commercial vehicle for a forthcoming journey and were unarmed at the time of the shooting.(*1) The provincial governor issued a statement that “two terrorists have been captured dead following a clash.”16 An HRA delegation investigated the incident and concluded that there was little evidence to suggest that Kaymaz and his son had been involved in an armed clash with security forces, as the official incident report claims. The HRA noted that since Kaymaz was a full-time truck driver and that his son had an uninterrupted attendance record at his local primary school, they were unlikely to be members of any guerrilla force. Kaymaz had recently appointed a lawyer to deal with his application for compensation for his displacement, and the autopsy report noted that related documents were on his person at the time of death.

A week after the Kaymaz killings, on November 28, gendarmes shot dead Fevzi Can, a shepherd who resided in the partially evacuated village of Ortaklar, in Şemdinli, Hakkari province.17 A local newspaper reported claims by Fevzi Can’s uncle that the military authorities had taken the body away and refused to release it unless Can’s relatives signed a statement saying that “a terrorist who failed to respond to a call to halt was killed.”18 Official statements described Can as a livestock smuggler19 but the village muhtar and Fevzi Can’s brother denied this, and pointed out that the animals in his possession had not been confiscated by the authorities, as is usual in smuggling cases, following Fevzi Can’s death. Efforts to coerce the relatives and conflicting stories about “terrorism” and “livestock smuggling” have provoked suspicions that this was an unlawful killing.

Four members of the Turkish Army Special Operations Team were indicted in December 2004 by the Mardin Chief Prosecutor’s Office for the killings of Ahmet and Uğur Kaymaz. The first hearing was held on February 12 at Mardin Criminal Court No. 2. The trial continues. An investigation has been opened against gendarmes thought to be responsible for the death of Fevzi Can. Prosecutions in southeast Turkey for similar crimes in the past have rarely resulted in convictions, giving cause for scepticism about whether those responsible for these offences will be held to account.

The discovery on November 4, 2004, of a common grave containing the bones of eleven people in the Kepre district of Alaca village has renewed awareness of the region’s history of violence and impunity.(*2) DNA samples are currently being tested, but clothing and objects indicate that the remains belong to eleven villagers detained by soldiers and “disappeared” at the time of the forced evacuation and destruction of Alaca in 1993.20 In 2001, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR) found the Turkish government responsible for violations of the right to life in respect of the eleven men. In its judgment, the Court was “struck by the lack of any meaningful effort” by public prosecutors to investigate the “disappearances” at Alaca.21 Villagers told the court that commandos from Bolu took the villagers away, but no soldiers from that unit were indicted.

According to the U.N. Principles on the Effective Prevention and Investigation of Extra-Legal, Arbitrary and Summary Executions, killings such as those described above should be investigated by independent expert commissions.22 The Turkish authorities have consistently resisted this route, preferring to leave the job to the public prosecution service that, over the past two decades, has proven itself either unable or unwilling to hold the members of the security forces to account.(*3)

Unless the Turkish government radically alters the manner in which allegations of killings by the security services and the village guard are investigated, and the perpetrators brought to account, impunity will continue, and many internally displaced will lack the confidence to return to their homes. "

" " The Turkish state tried to cover up what it did, and now it’s subjecting the displaced to years of delay. When EU officials arrive in Ankara, they need to put the problem of the displaced at the top of their agenda. "

Rachel Denber
Acting Executive Director
Europe and Central Asia Division"

"The soldiers emptied our village on a cold day in November 1993. They not only burned the place but fired on it with artillery. There were one hundred and ten families and now there are just fifteen people there. Now it still is not safe. I have been deprived of my home and my productive life for ten years. We received no assistance from the state to return. Now we want to be compensated. We villagers are open to negotiation. We are not taking these actions out of enmity. We worked out a project for the re-establishment of the village, including reconstruction of the houses, a health centre, a school. For all this we need infrastructure – a sewage system for example. People will laugh at this – a village in the southeast hoping for a sewage system – but the state should provide these basics.
—Villager from Kırkpınar, near Dicle, Diyarbakır province, interviewed in Diyarbakır, November 25, 2004"

Key points -
*1- Turkish army attacks unarmed civilians.
*2- Turkey has a history of violence against minorities.
*3- Turkey denies and avoids facing the crimes it commits.

[Thai-Samurai]

Yes actually it is taotally a lie and fake.

Oh, a total lie and fake you say. Hmm pretty harsh.

I assure you no Kurd is dying, I live in Turkey.

Absolutely genius.

But of course if you want to believe soething I can't proove you the opposite.

Sure.

Come on think about Turkey-EU accession negotiations is starting. How can you consifer that "Turkish government is killing Kurds" stories?

I never thought How I could consider these stories, I just happened to read them. Oh I thought about it. Makes perfect sense now.

I'm still not sure whether you claim these stories just to offense and make me angry or do you really believe them? If second, then you have a serious mental problem.

I have serious mental problems for reading articles about real life current issues?

[bell-the-cat]

"The soldiers emptied our village on a cold day in November 1993. They not only burned the place but fired on it with artillery. There were one hundred and ten families and now there are just fifteen people there.

Reminds me of a village I once visited near Kagizman. The army forced everyone to leave, and burned down the school, and cut the power cable to the village. They even cut down the electricity poles in case anyone tried to reconnect the power cable. Truth is that many of these villages will never be fully repopulated, even with Kurds breeding like rabbits - after tasting urban life almost no-one will return to a village unless it offers them a better lifestyle.

[Otto]

We can cure all kinds of illnesses you say, eh? Then why is Turkey still the sick man of Europe?

it is because some other people trying to keep us sick " exterior enemies who look like friends and thier interior partners" we just cannot shake them from our backs... sick nations are easier to control...

[winoman]

it is because some other people trying to keep us sick " exterior enemies who look like friends and thier interior partners" we just cannot shake them from our backs... sick nations are easier to control...

What is it about the Turkish psyche where they cannot accept their own failings but must instead always blame outside conspiracies and efforts aimed against them. This pattern repeats over and over...could it truly be that the other peoples of the world are just driven by constant jealosy of the Turks that they take every effort to keep them down without exception? And is it not revelaing how the excuses of today exactly mimick those used in earlier years to cover and justify the great many large crimes commited....

[Otto]

we accept (or just me) our own failings but nobody can say there are no outsiders working against us... there are who work against US too as well as against EU or even against Armenia...not because they are jealous of us but they just wanna make more money or gain some advantages... to deny this just blindness i say mr Winoman... for example i can say ( i have no proof but seems logical) some automotive companies are working against railroads just to sell more trucks... You have been to Turkey and you can see that too, there are many Turcks on the road while we can carry goods more cheaper by railroad... i was talking about those kind of things... why do you just think of us that way i cannot understand... we are all paranoid or you just cant see the way things happen... lets say we had airplane factories back in 1930s..( not so sure about the date) and after US said that they were going to give us vfree planes that we need so we should close down our factories.... and then we stopped all work regarding aircrafts...and now we are bound to them. we have to buy spare parts and other stuff... is int it against us? isnt it a conspiracy against us to keep us down... lets say it is not keeping us down but fooling us...same thing for me

another example... actually i am serving in the Navy for one year obligatory military service.... we are in a shipyard at the moment.. in that ship yard they are gonna build new corvettes... their name is MILGEM meaning natioanl ship... do you know how many times this project had been delayed because of germans... 3 times... it is because they want us to keep buying German MEKO type frigates... not because they are jealous of us.... it is just how capitalizm works...

sometimes you seem to be a logical person mr Winoman but sometimes you just choose the easy way to criticize us....

and now in iraq many people die just because US wants to have the control of oil..can you deny that... nobody walking this world believes the so called US motives to bring freedom to iraq people and thatcute president of yours still parrots the same democracy story over and over.... yeah iraq people thinks that US is just jealous of them....

i know you always try to be objective but please try harder...

[Otto]

My dream come true! Let's hope! It will probably destabilize TEMPORARILY SO CALLED Turkey. It will easier to dismantle a destabilized Islamist country!

and try to make me believe there is nobody in any government around Turkey sharing those toughts above.... hey wake up dude

[winoman]

Otto - the issue is the on-again - off-again undeclared Turkish war against the Kurds and also why Turkey is still the "sick-man" etc. You blame outside conspiracies. I can bring up numerous accounts about corruption in your industry and in regards to such in the war on the Kurds. Specifically there is the incident (I forgot the name given it) when Turkish political representatives, police and underworld types were found dead in a car accident with certain information pertaining to various plots to assasinate Kurds and others - etc - you know about this incident which I speak? And you are blaming outside intrigues....I suggest that you become more critical of your own internal corruption and deceits.

BTW - just last week I was discussing with some friends the issue of the preponderounce of truck based shipping at the expense of rail in the US. This issue is not only with Turkey. That industries work against competitors for their own benefit is not some great conspiracy and it is not aimed at keeping any particular nation down - nor can such be used to deflect real critiscim of unrectified problems in ones nations in other areas. Turkey's Kurdish problem is of its own making. Government of Turkey created PKK through its own excesses and policies towards the Kurds. Likewise your government has repressed political expression from the left and has limited real dissent. Your Democracy is in a great many ways "so-called" and you should realize this.

Though I imagine there is much in the history of your Republic that you are unaware - much assasination, much repression, much trumped up charges and silencing of critics. One series of such that comes to mind occured in the late 1920s (also a time of great repression and "war" against the Kurds). After having used the CUP leftovers to constitute the state beauracracy and comprise its political (and intelligence and special services) operatives etc - the Kemalist regiem felt threatened by the presence of so many (bad guys) who knew too much about the unsavory aspects of the founding of the Republic. So it generated charges of conspiracy against the state and just executed and conducted a wholescale liquidation of these potential political liabilites. Dozens and dozens of ex CUP officals were hanged or otherwise murdered - mostly on pretext. The Kemalists also executed or otherwise killed Kurdish chieftans that it (and earlier the CUP) had so relied on to carry out violent exessive policies first against minorities and then later and also in your war for national independence - but by then they were both expendable and a liability. So such a policy to liquidate "enemies" and dissidents was established by the Republic (again folloing the CUP's lead - you nation's governing elite being direct decendents and inheritors of the legacy of such). So with such a distinguished history - please don't think to (again) blame outsiders for your nation's woes and inadequacies...

[Martin]

It is normal you are a Turk.

The Mongols and the Arabs were living in Europe as well like Turks , nobody considers them Europeans.

I like it when people are telling me where i live and what i feel.

You're really Good!!!
But I think that Armenia is not in Europe......and thats better that we are in Asia.