Armenian Dialect - Why Is The Older One Wrong?

[karoaper]

Re: Armenian Dialect - Why Is The Older One Wrong?

I think I read somewhere that the main difference is the "loss" of all the consonant sounds. Like we have 3 d sounds, c (k) sounds, etc
Like in English, we end up with Garen or Karen, but are missing the middle and correct sound.
Maybe someone who can type it in armenian characters can illustrate.

In a nutshell:

[Siggie]

Re: Armenian Dialect - Why Is The Older One Wrong?

Thank you sir.

[karoaper]

Re: Armenian Dialect - Why Is The Older One Wrong?

Thank you sir.

You're welcome ma'am.

[Che_Ka]

Re: Armenian Dialect - Why Is The Older One Wrong?

I posted the following reply on another forum, but I feel it is necessary to post it here as well. There are some very uninformed posters here who would benefits from reading this.

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My original post:

I think you are confusing 2 separate things. The spelling is a completely different issue from the pronunciation.

As you know, Western Armenian and Eastern Armenian differ from each other in several INDEPENDENT respects: Spelling (orthography), Pronunciation, Grammar, and to some extent Vocabulary.

Western Armenians have kept the original spelling system, whereas Eastern Armenians (with the exception of those in Iran) use a modified spelling system. This modified spelling system was mandated by the Soviet government. It was originally mandated in the 1920s. That system was itself modified in the 1940s, and it has remained unchanged since. The modified spelling system attempts to simplify the spelling system. (In my opinion, while it does simplify spelling rules, it makes it more difficult to glean the origin of words and thus robs the language of its history.) Only those Armenians who were under Soviet rule adopted these changes, which is why all Western Armenians and Barsgahays (Iranian-Armenians) have kept the original spelling.

The spelling issue is completely different from the pronunciation issue. While the spelling was changed overnight and within fixed borders (ie, within the Soviet Union), the pronunciation changed gradually over a long period of time and not necessarily in any specific area. I don't think there is any conclusive reason WHY the pronunciation changed, but logic would dictate that the change occurred after several hundred years of contact with the Turkish language. In fact, if you listen to modern Turkish, the SOUNDS of the language sound just like Western Armenian. Even the accent and so forth sound like Western Armenian. The further west Armenians lived across the Anatolian plain, the more the pronunciation had changed. And in the extreme west, in Bolis/Istanbul, that is where the pronunciation had completely changed. In the middle-west (Marash, Musa Ler, etc), not all of the consonants had changed pronunciations. But anyway, about 100 years ago, a "standard" Western Armenian dialect was CREATED from the Bolis dialect, and this standard dialect was taught across Western Armenia. This is how the pronunciation change was really cemented. The Western Armenian that is spoken today is based, in most part, on the pronunciation and grammar of the Bolis dialect. The regional dialects of Western Armenia, which have almost all been extinct, did not necessarily share the same grammar and pronunication as the Bolis dialect. Note also that in old Western Armenian folk songs, you will notice a grammar that is like a mixture between Eastern and Western. It is helpful to think of the old Armenian regional pronunciations and grammars as a continuum stretching from Bolis in the west to Yerevan and Artsakh to the east, with variations and mixtures in between.

There are further questions that I have not been able to answer. For instance, why did the sound of "Բ" change at all? Why couldn't it have remained a "B" sound? I understand that "Պ" changed to "B" since in the original pronunciation, Պ already has an in-between B/P sound, so it's easy to flip that to a plain B sound. But why didn't "Բ" remain B, "Պ" become B, and "Փ" remain P, as it did? Why such a drastic change for Բ? The same goes for Գ, Դ, Ձ, and Ջ.

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I will now add:

But, let it be clear: WESTERN ARMENIAN, even as it is spoken today, is NOT INCORRECT.

It is a derivative of the old Western Armenian vernaculars, which themselves were derivatives of Middle Armenian, which was derived from Classical Armenian. Of course, today's Eastern Armenian is also derived from Middle Armenian, which was derived from Krapar.

It is true that spoken Western Armenian incorporates Turkish, Arabic, and French words. In the same way that spoken Eastern Armenian incorporates Russian, and some Turkish words. But, standard Western Armenian is a complete dialect, with a rich literature of its own, just like standard Eastern Armenian is complete, with a rich literature of its own.

Had history gone differently, Western Armenian may have been an official language of some country, somewhere...perhaps Cilicia, or Western Armenia, etc. But history was not kind to Western Armenian -- and it is sadly destined to die, having been relegated to the Diaspora's harsh reality.

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Karoaper: As to your confusion regarding the letter "Յ." It is the most interesting letter in the original spelling system. At the beginning of a word, it is pronounced as an "H." In the middle of a word, it is pronounced as a "Y." At the end of a word, it is silent.

Generally, foreign words that begin with the letter "J" were transliterated into Armenian as beginning with the letter "Յ."

For example: Jesus is Յիսուս. Jubilee is Յոբելեան.

It is for reasons like this that I say the Soviet spelling system robbed (Eastern) Armenian of its history.

[Dalita]

Re: Armenian Dialect - Why Is The Older One Wrong?

for gods sake I'm so tired of hearing this...there is nothing wrong with both armenian languages and dialects. everybody every race every country has their own dialects sometimes so bad they dont understand eachother. STOP saying that this is wrong and that is wrong... Your armenian no mather what kind or Type of armenian you speak however you spell or read! its the same country same religion same RACE..... At least You know your language so that other armenians understand it. Now days the eastern armenian and the western armenian speakers understand eachother better then before and in the future I would love that every armenian will learn both 2 types of the armenian language but I get Extreamly happy if someone outside armenia, living in a nother country at least learn One of the armenian dialects! and so should every armenian be. so insted of saying your wrong, tell them I'm impressed of what you know from your dialect .. this is how my armenian dialect is... and LEARN BOTH! it wouldnt hurt you.. it would only make it better for you!

[Կարմիր Բ]

Re: Armenian Dialect - Why Is The Older One Wrong?

The Western Armenian has the correct spelling. The Eastern Armenian has the correct pronunciation.

I speak both so I don't care really.

-Lan ekur hos.

-Eli ari steg.

[Կարմիր Բ]

Re: Armenian Dialect - Why Is The Older One Wrong?

By the way, Avakian I like your surname. Even though I'm not a maoist.

[Vlad_Arm]

Re: Armenian Dialect - Why Is The Older One Wrong?

Well maybe what I am gonna say, will not be pleasant for western armenian speakers.

Almost all alphabets will begin like

a b ...d....g... or a..b...g...d

So now lets go to pronouncations.
Easterns say like it is in english. (or arabic, or Hebrew or Russian... whatever)
westerns would say a p' t' q .
So this sounds to be paradoxal. The pronouncation of the letters is not in order of the usual things.
Please, no offends.

I like the way Western Arm sounds( I speak Eastern), and I know that Western speakers generally don't like Eastern. At least whoever I met in yerevan who just came from countries like Syria, Lebanon, etc... they'd complayin that Eastern sounds too rough and "not correct".
But, guys, the speach you are getting in yerevan is not the "correct" Eastern... It's "yerevan slang".
I find both Eastern and Western to sound quite nice when spoken correctly.

[Che_Ka]

Re: Armenian Dialect - Why Is The Older One Wrong?

Nobody claims that Western Armenian's pronunciation is original. It is not.

But, let's remember that the change in pronunciation was a natural and organic one -- caused by living side by side with Turkish speakers.

Although Western Armenian uses the non-original pronunciation of letters, I still stand by it because after several hundred years of Turkish influence, all they were able to change was the sound of some letters, but not the language itself.

[Vlad_Arm]

Re: Armenian Dialect - Why Is The Older One Wrong?

Nobody claims that Western Armenian's pronunciation is original. It is not.

But, let's remember that the change in pronunciation was a natural and organic one -- caused by living side by side with Turkish speakers.

Although Western Armenian uses the non-original pronunciation of letters, I still stand by it because after several hundred years of Turkish influence, all they were able to change was the sound of some letters, but not the language itself.

I Agree