Half Armenians

[Armenian]

Re: Half Armenians

I'm 50% Armenian.

You, half Armenian???

I would have 'never' guessed.

What's the other half?

[Virgil]

Re: Half Armenians

As usual Virgil you are all over the place. If I only didn’t know any better ... I can tell from your constant focus on ONLY the present Armenian migration from Armenia is making me conclude your true concerns are about the present government of Armenia and your true objective is about blaming the present leadership in Armenia more than facing a reality of a Diasopra that has been for over a century in foreign lands. Wonder why you even brought up the “I have no motive”??? Are you trying to justify something?

Concerning the “If you have 1% blood you are still Armenian”... You should be blind to think that we are some homogeneous looking entity. Over all we do have some defining characteristics looks ... In a larger Armenian group we do have extreme variations in our looks and that variation did not happen recently it happened by some of us only having 1% blood from the original “Armenians”. Virgil spare me the old school book of waving the puritanism flag and face a reality on saving the pieces and extending our existence. And yes a 1% Armenian could extend our existence sometimes longer than the melting 100%. And yes a 1% Armenian can return to Armenia and become Armenian sometimes better than the 100%.

Wow, did this turn into a zoo or what? We are going at it again, my last reply, I hate this sick cycle of events.

I am only "all over the place" because the bigger picture is "all over the place", I am not going to repeat myself, I may have left out important points in my argument, but for the most part if you are intelligent you can fill the holes yourself. Second, I am not justifying anything, its people that have a mindset like you (?) that are justifying everything, I just call it how it is. I am not going to repeat myself, just understand that this problem will never contain itself, you can not solve the problem by magically turning 1% into 100% Armenians, this is a short term solution convinient for foreign Armenians (I refuse to call the Armenians a "Diaspora", it places the authority of the Armenia state in their hands when they do not live in the state. The only authority that has the right to determine the Armenia's future is the Armenian people in Armenian.), it is not a long term solution for the Armenian state.

Essentially, the Armenians in Armenia are developing the Armenian culture, what you and others like you are doing is taking what you exported and putting this information into books and selling it to foreign Armenians under the banner of "Armenian culture". This is not "Armenian culture". You are pickling a culture, your not really "developing it". Reading and writing Armenian is no indication of being Armenian. And trying to buy your family a identity is not going to replace the valuable social construction of identity that one reveices from their parents. Notice there is no underlying emphasis on "blood" or "genes".

Also, this idea you have that Armenians have no "racial" connection to the past is just ludicris, this again is a lie. Most Armenians have a certain characteristic to them, I can pick out a Armenian in a group of non-Armenians. This idea that were some gypsy tribal people is just again your interpretation of history in such way where it justifies your point of view. Again, who is justifying their actions? Me or people like you? Its just tragic that we have to resort to such desperate measures, yes, its a action out of desperation to hang on to somthing even though what we are hanging on to is just further marginalization.

Lastly, yes, "Virgil spare me the old school book of waving the puritanism flag and face a reality on saving the pieces and extending our existence"? Yes, this is how a people retain their identity and way of life. Are you honestly going to try and convince me that a fragmented society, where their exists different races and religions, is actually going to preserve the Armenian identity? What do you think happend to the Romans? Romans use to have a identity, then being Roman became a nationality, in that it was a title designated to people that lived under the roman governmetn. Where are the Romans now? They are extinct, all that remains is what they wrote down in these books, there is no single Roman in this world today. Were talking about a entire civilization here, but yet, by the looks of it Armenians must be the exception to this rule? The reality is that is the truth, wake up, your people are going extinct because they are trapped in this vicious cycle.

They immigrate to western states, change the fundimental rules that protected their identity for thousands of years because they can not admit that their actions are directly counter productive to the Armenian state, and this in time convinces others to immigrate because "hey, if xyz can immigrate and maintain a identity, why not me". The fact of the matter, yes it is mainly economic that some people immigrate out, but IMHO most do it because they beleive in this lie of a "Spiritual Armenia" and that "1% can always revert to 100%", this is a lie. Conversly, Turks and Azeris are sitting, waiting in Ankera and Baku, just waiting and having kids. Eventually they will have enough of a population to replace the Armenian population. We are losing the war without even having fought the battle, this is the reality.

[Lamb Boy]

Re: Half Armenians

So shouldn't you encourage 50%'ers to marry other 50%'ers so that the blood line/genetics stay the same, or do not water down any further?

Do Virgil and other hardcore Armenian purists want me to stop cooking Armenian food for my friends and explaining where it comes from and about my heritage? Would it be better for Armenia and Armenians if those less than 100% stopped associating themselves with Armenia? Maybe if those who are less than 100% in the Diaspora just stopped talking about Armenian issues then those issues would finally be addressed? This is the logic, or a logical way of thinking?

The logic of these purists seems to be to alienate those in the Diaspora who are below 100% and make them feel as unwelcome as possible because that's how we will become strong pure nation. Ultimately if there is a 50%'er and a 100%'er and the 100 doesn't carry any Armenian traditions in their daily life but the 50%'er does then who is really a better representative of the culture? Be honest, some of the Diaspora children try harder to assimilate back INTO Armenian culture more than others born directly into the culture try to preserve what they grew up around. Yet these are the same ppl Virgil and Armenians like him try to prevent from even saying anything about being Armenian. What for?

Whatever ... if the shoe was on the other foot Virgil you would be singing a different tune my friend. Meaning I can't and didn't choose the parents I was born with anymore than anybody else on this planet (i.e. you). So as far as I am concerned the difference between you being 100% and me being 50% boils down to just plain luck or chance really. Basically I am saying it is ludicrous to hold my genetics against me as I, as everybody else, had no choice in the matter.

If I say I am half Armenian what do you care? Do you really want to sit around and split hairs, or chromosomes ;-), like it makes a difference?

What is your ultimate purpose here? Is it the genetics or the culture that you to persevere throughout time? If it's both then you should reevaluate your strategies because they are severely flawed.

[Lucin]

Re: Half Armenians

Virgil,
I don't think anybody here said that our future is in the Diaspora. Assimilation seems to be inevitable, when you live outside your country, Homeland. However, we can just hinder this process of assimilation, for our country, Armenia still needs the Diaspora.
As for this 'blood' thing, even though I strongly believe we'd better marry Armenians, but honestly, haven't you seen full-blooded Armenians who just make you sick? I have seen a lot of them…

[Azad]

Re: Half Armenians

As usual Virgil you are all over the place. If I only didn’t know any better ... I can tell from your constant focus on ONLY the present Armenian migration from Armenia is making me conclude your true concerns are about the present government of Armenia and your true objective is about blaming the present leadership in Armenia more than facing a reality of a Diasopra that has been for over a century in foreign lands. Wonder why you even brought up the “I have no motive”??? Are you trying to justify something?

Concerning the “If you have 1% blood you are still Armenian”... You should be blind to think that we are some homogeneous looking entity. Over all we do have some defining characteristics looks ... In a larger Armenian group we do have extreme variations in our looks and that variation did not happen recently it happened by some of us only having 1% blood from the original “Armenians”. Virgil spare me the old school book of waving the puritanism flag and face a reality on saving the pieces and extending our existence. And yes a 1% Armenian could extend our existence sometimes longer than the melting 100%. And yes a 1% Armenian can return to Armenia and become Armenian sometimes better than the 100%.

[Virgil]

Re: Half Armenians

Virgil, your approach has some flows. You are constantly focusing on the present Armenian “immigration” from Armenia, implying that the assimilative Diaspora is only the product of that migration. You should take in consideration a century old Diaspora that got scattered all around the world with very harsh survival conditions. Puting a burden of guilt in the name of “confront the truth” on posters that retained the Armenian identity and are making an afford to connect on forums is not a very positive or encouraging accomplishment. And yet you went comparing some “puritan” Armenian survival against the orgy of turkic bazar growth. I am having hard time fallowing your logic of growth and survival in an all exclusive Armenian “race” when the world is telling us things work otherwise. Excluding some Asian countries, I can not think of one single country or people that survived as long as we did and are not on the verge of extinction WITHOUT accepting certain adaptations. I would love to keep us an all exclusive “Japan” the reality is that we are not an Island. Even questioning the taboo ... What is the importance of the Armenian survival? I personally do not believe it is a certain genetic looks. It is the survival of our History, our Language, our Geography and the Armenian perceived behavioral "good" that we can spread to others in the name of being Armenian and making them Armenians and not turks.

"Genetic look"? I did not mention anything about a "genetic look". Reread my post and my points are very logical. There is no illogic to it, Armenians are decreasing in population in the homeland, a homeland that is surrounded by two hostile states that want to annex at least the southern tip of Armenia. In addition, the Armenians outside Armenia are assimilating, and you have no incentive from the people outside to migrate back into Armenia because of these ridiculous ideas that you can be a gypsy without any consequences to your identity. Lets get somthing straight, there is no debate on this, the independence of the Armenian state and their self determination will be lost if this trend continues. Artsahk will be lost if this trend continues. There is no other conclusion, this reality has to be accepted if you want to be serious about Armenia and the future of the Armenian state.

Regarding the "burden of guilt", there is no "burden of guilt", there is a emphasis on responsiblity, at least bare minimum a acceptence of the relaties we find ourselves in. If you have a burden of guilt, I have it as well, the only difference is that I don't come on forums and make asinine comments like "Were all Armenian", "If you have no blood in you, you can still be Armenian", and or "If you have 1% blood you are still Armenian", what kind of whack job says this kinds of things? A pretty naive one. Sorry, my conclusion is still my conclusion, only individuals that are in a state of denail succomb to saying such statements, a level headed and intelligent person, considering all the facts, will NEVER EVER say such statements. As a full blooded Armenian my identity is marginalized, please don't insult my intelligence by saying otherwise, furthermore, please don't come here and pollute the minds of Armenians with these ridiculous statements, this is not the truth, the truth is in what I say, this is the truth, I have no motive other then telling the truth, while the motive for these people is to have a clean concious about their decisions and not consider the reality of the situation the Armenian state and people find themselves in.

[Azad]

Re: Half Armenians

Virgil, your approach has some flows. You are constantly focusing on the present Armenian “immigration” from Armenia, implying that the assimilative Diaspora is only the product of that migration. You should take in consideration a century old Diaspora that got scattered all around the world with very harsh survival conditions. Puting a burden of guilt in the name of “confront the truth” on posters that retained the Armenian identity and are making an afford to connect on forums is not a very positive or encouraging accomplishment. And yet you went comparing some “puritan” Armenian survival against the orgy of turkic bazar growth. I am having hard time fallowing your logic of growth and survival in an all exclusive Armenian “race” when the world is telling us things work otherwise. Excluding some Asian countries, I can not think of one single country or people that survived as long as we did and are not on the verge of extinction WITHOUT accepting certain adaptations. I would love to keep us an all exclusive “Japan” the reality is that we are not an Island. Even questioning the taboo ... What is the importance of the Armenian survival? I personally do not believe it is a certain genetic looks. It is the survival of our History, our Language, our Geography and the Armenian perceived behavioral "good" that we can spread to others in the name of being Armenian and making them Armenians and not turks.

[Virgil]

Re: Half Armenians

Virgil, most Armenians do agree with you. The question should be asked if you do you have a LOGICAL solution a preventative one from assimilation and not stating the obvious by insulting some of us. For I am 100% Armenian and do place Armenians with lesser % in a higher position than myself for they will have to make even a harder effort on retaining our identity and ignoring insults.

Reread what I wrote, its in there. I apologize if I insulted anyone, but I am just fed up with this topic coming up on a constant basis, there are more important decisions to be made. Personally, the choices individuals make should not be swayed by me or anyone else, I am not here to validate anything or condemn anyone, this is not my intention, however, if this question comes up and if I am there, I will make it a point to repeat this seemingly obvious answer that apprently so obvious that out of all the posters, only two posters (including myself!) had to restate this obvious answer that apprently everyone agrees with.

Which begs the quesiton, if Armenians as you say are "aware" and agree with me "100%", why are we having this debate? I know why, because for Armenians the truth hurts, the realities of immigration, asismilation, and extinction are conviniently relabeled so that these decisions themselves are less painful to make.

With regards to my opinions, only Armenians that are afraid to confront the truth oppose me, personally, when you realize the truth and live your life based on this truth, every decision you make takes into consideration both the benefits and the consequences instead of denying the very fact that there are consequences to every decision. Essentially, I can not live my life a lie, you can not walk around and pretend the sky is red when it is actually blue, its more liberating accepting the realities and working towards a solution as opposed to what you and everyone else is doing by ignoring the problem or relabeling the problem in a more appealing fashion.

My solution is simple and its in my comments, reread what I wrote, its a VERY simple solution, one that most Armenians know is the right decision, but because it will involve many hardships and sacrifices, they do not even consider it (Saddly, including myself, but I am not the worst offender, I inherited my offense.).

Before I begin let me make one point very clear, this idea that there exists a spiritual Armenia or what I refer to as the biggest Armenian lie (The Saroyan Quote AKA "Two Armenians meet up and create a new Armenia") is a again relabeling of a older decision to make the initial decision of immigrating out of the geographical space known as Armenia more appealing. The reality is that we are human beings and we only understand ownership of the tangible, there exists no intangible nation and people, the borders of any state are determined by its population. When the last two Armenians leave the greographic proximity of historic Armenia they can not create a new Armenia.

I am not going to restate my solution, its obvious. However, what I will do is highlight my concerns, maybe if you live in my world you will understand my point of view a little bit more clearly:

Armenia (Total Armenian population, about 3 million)
Population growth rate: -0.129% (2007 est.)
Birth rate: 12.34 births/1,000 population (2007 est.)
...

Azerbaijan (Total Azeri population, about 8 million)
Population growth rate: 0.688% (2007 est.)
Birth rate: 17.47 births/1,000 population (2007 est.)
...

Turkey (Total Turkish Population, about 40 million)
Population growth rate: 1.04% (2007 est.)
Birth rate: 16.4 births/1,000 population (2007 est.)

...

What does this mean? Assuming we keep the growth rates constant and over a maturity of 30 years, the Turkish and Azeri, populations, respectivly, will have matured to roughly 53 million and 9.5 million, while the Armenian population will have decreased to about 2.8 million. Take this to the infinite power and you will see that within a few generations the Turkish and Azeri populations will not only outnumber Armenians, but specifically the Azeri population will be the dominate population in the region. Just a bit a of a reality check. The truth is that Armenians are having as many kids as their neighbors but immigration is taking its toll for various obvious reasons attributed to economic reasons. But if I had to make a important decision like this, I would rather know the truth then pretend that everything is peacy. It is far more easier to immigrate pretending that you can create a new Armenia versus knowing that the entire future a of people rests in the decision you make.

[Azad]

Re: Half Armenians

I would never consider myself anything other than Armenian

Lamb Boy, you are the true Armenian, the Survivor. You are the symbol of our Diasporan hope. Keep the good work and try to marry Armenian if you can or at least pass the message to your children.

[Azad]

Re: Half Armenians

Virgil, most Armenians do agree with you. The question should be asked if you do you have a LOGICAL solution a preventative one from assimilation and not stating the obvious by insulting some of us. For I am 100% Armenian and do place Armenians with lesser % in a higher position than myself for they will have to make even a harder effort on retaining our identity and ignoring insults.