Half Armenians

[Lucin]

Re: Half Armenians

Virgil,
I don't think anybody here said that our future is in the Diaspora. Assimilation seems to be inevitable, when you live outside your country, Homeland. However, we can just hinder this process of assimilation, for our country, Armenia still needs the Diaspora.
As for this 'blood' thing, even though I strongly believe we'd better marry Armenians, but honestly, haven't you seen full-blooded Armenians who just make you sick? I have seen a lot of them…

[Lamb Boy]

Re: Half Armenians

So shouldn't you encourage 50%'ers to marry other 50%'ers so that the blood line/genetics stay the same, or do not water down any further?

Do Virgil and other hardcore Armenian purists want me to stop cooking Armenian food for my friends and explaining where it comes from and about my heritage? Would it be better for Armenia and Armenians if those less than 100% stopped associating themselves with Armenia? Maybe if those who are less than 100% in the Diaspora just stopped talking about Armenian issues then those issues would finally be addressed? This is the logic, or a logical way of thinking?

The logic of these purists seems to be to alienate those in the Diaspora who are below 100% and make them feel as unwelcome as possible because that's how we will become strong pure nation. Ultimately if there is a 50%'er and a 100%'er and the 100 doesn't carry any Armenian traditions in their daily life but the 50%'er does then who is really a better representative of the culture? Be honest, some of the Diaspora children try harder to assimilate back INTO Armenian culture more than others born directly into the culture try to preserve what they grew up around. Yet these are the same ppl Virgil and Armenians like him try to prevent from even saying anything about being Armenian. What for?

Whatever ... if the shoe was on the other foot Virgil you would be singing a different tune my friend. Meaning I can't and didn't choose the parents I was born with anymore than anybody else on this planet (i.e. you). So as far as I am concerned the difference between you being 100% and me being 50% boils down to just plain luck or chance really. Basically I am saying it is ludicrous to hold my genetics against me as I, as everybody else, had no choice in the matter.

If I say I am half Armenian what do you care? Do you really want to sit around and split hairs, or chromosomes ;-), like it makes a difference?

What is your ultimate purpose here? Is it the genetics or the culture that you to persevere throughout time? If it's both then you should reevaluate your strategies because they are severely flawed.

[Virgil]

Re: Half Armenians

As usual Virgil you are all over the place. If I only didn’t know any better ... I can tell from your constant focus on ONLY the present Armenian migration from Armenia is making me conclude your true concerns are about the present government of Armenia and your true objective is about blaming the present leadership in Armenia more than facing a reality of a Diasopra that has been for over a century in foreign lands. Wonder why you even brought up the “I have no motive”??? Are you trying to justify something?

Concerning the “If you have 1% blood you are still Armenian”... You should be blind to think that we are some homogeneous looking entity. Over all we do have some defining characteristics looks ... In a larger Armenian group we do have extreme variations in our looks and that variation did not happen recently it happened by some of us only having 1% blood from the original “Armenians”. Virgil spare me the old school book of waving the puritanism flag and face a reality on saving the pieces and extending our existence. And yes a 1% Armenian could extend our existence sometimes longer than the melting 100%. And yes a 1% Armenian can return to Armenia and become Armenian sometimes better than the 100%.

Wow, did this turn into a zoo or what? We are going at it again, my last reply, I hate this sick cycle of events.

I am only "all over the place" because the bigger picture is "all over the place", I am not going to repeat myself, I may have left out important points in my argument, but for the most part if you are intelligent you can fill the holes yourself. Second, I am not justifying anything, its people that have a mindset like you (?) that are justifying everything, I just call it how it is. I am not going to repeat myself, just understand that this problem will never contain itself, you can not solve the problem by magically turning 1% into 100% Armenians, this is a short term solution convinient for foreign Armenians (I refuse to call the Armenians a "Diaspora", it places the authority of the Armenia state in their hands when they do not live in the state. The only authority that has the right to determine the Armenia's future is the Armenian people in Armenian.), it is not a long term solution for the Armenian state.

Essentially, the Armenians in Armenia are developing the Armenian culture, what you and others like you are doing is taking what you exported and putting this information into books and selling it to foreign Armenians under the banner of "Armenian culture". This is not "Armenian culture". You are pickling a culture, your not really "developing it". Reading and writing Armenian is no indication of being Armenian. And trying to buy your family a identity is not going to replace the valuable social construction of identity that one reveices from their parents. Notice there is no underlying emphasis on "blood" or "genes".

Also, this idea you have that Armenians have no "racial" connection to the past is just ludicris, this again is a lie. Most Armenians have a certain characteristic to them, I can pick out a Armenian in a group of non-Armenians. This idea that were some gypsy tribal people is just again your interpretation of history in such way where it justifies your point of view. Again, who is justifying their actions? Me or people like you? Its just tragic that we have to resort to such desperate measures, yes, its a action out of desperation to hang on to somthing even though what we are hanging on to is just further marginalization.

Lastly, yes, "Virgil spare me the old school book of waving the puritanism flag and face a reality on saving the pieces and extending our existence"? Yes, this is how a people retain their identity and way of life. Are you honestly going to try and convince me that a fragmented society, where their exists different races and religions, is actually going to preserve the Armenian identity? What do you think happend to the Romans? Romans use to have a identity, then being Roman became a nationality, in that it was a title designated to people that lived under the roman governmetn. Where are the Romans now? They are extinct, all that remains is what they wrote down in these books, there is no single Roman in this world today. Were talking about a entire civilization here, but yet, by the looks of it Armenians must be the exception to this rule? The reality is that is the truth, wake up, your people are going extinct because they are trapped in this vicious cycle.

They immigrate to western states, change the fundimental rules that protected their identity for thousands of years because they can not admit that their actions are directly counter productive to the Armenian state, and this in time convinces others to immigrate because "hey, if xyz can immigrate and maintain a identity, why not me". The fact of the matter, yes it is mainly economic that some people immigrate out, but IMHO most do it because they beleive in this lie of a "Spiritual Armenia" and that "1% can always revert to 100%", this is a lie. Conversly, Turks and Azeris are sitting, waiting in Ankera and Baku, just waiting and having kids. Eventually they will have enough of a population to replace the Armenian population. We are losing the war without even having fought the battle, this is the reality.

[Armenian]

Re: Half Armenians

I'm 50% Armenian.

You, half Armenian???

I would have 'never' guessed.

What's the other half?

[Virgil]

Re: Half Armenians

So shouldn't you encourage 50%'ers to marry other 50%'ers so that the blood line/genetics stay the same, or do not water down any further?

Do Virgil and other hardcore Armenian purists want me to stop cooking Armenian food for my friends and explaining where it comes from and about my heritage? Would it be better for Armenia and Armenians if those less than 100% stopped associating themselves with Armenia? Maybe if those who are less than 100% in the Diaspora just stopped talking about Armenian issues then those issues would finally be addressed? This is the logic, or a logical way of thinking?

The logic of these purists seems to be to alienate those in the Diaspora who are below 100% and make them feel as unwelcome as possible because that's how we will become strong pure nation. Ultimately if there is a 50%'er and a 100%'er and the 100 doesn't carry any Armenian traditions in their daily life but the 50%'er does then who is really a better representative of the culture? Be honest, some of the Diaspora children try harder to assimilate back INTO Armenian culture more than others born directly into the culture try to preserve what they grew up around. Yet these are the same ppl Virgil and Armenians like him try to prevent from even saying anything about being Armenian. What for?

Whatever ... if the shoe was on the other foot Virgil you would be singing a different tune my friend. Meaning I can't and didn't choose the parents I was born with anymore than anybody else on this planet (i.e. you). So as far as I am concerned the difference between you being 100% and me being 50% boils down to just plain luck or chance really. Basically I am saying it is ludicrous to hold my genetics against me as I, as everybody else, had no choice in the matter.

If I say I am half Armenian what do you care? Do you really want to sit around and split hairs, or chromosomes ;-), like it makes a difference?

What is your ultimate purpose here? Is it the genetics or the culture that you to persevere throughout time? If it's both then you should reevaluate your strategies because they are severely flawed.

I am going to cut this a bit short...

There is no emphasis on "genes", my argument is solely based on social construction of a identity. Do you honestly think genetically Armenians are not close to Greeks or whites? What differences does it make, racially Armenians are white. But you have to admit that the a full Armenian person is fundimentally raised differently then a half Armenian. Now, if you were to take this to infinite power (i.e. successive generations), the innitial character or ideology of the Armenian people will have eruded and completely changed from the original source.

Second, I am not incompassionate to your opinions. I am in no position to decide anything for you, however, you have to understand my point of view. If the idea that a half Armenian is "ok" then what is stoping a one percenter from claiming Armenian heritage? Its like Pandora and her box, once she opened the lid, everyone was screwed. Again, this should be taken in the context it was presented. If you had 40 million Armenians in world, how important are the actions of a few percent of the population? But if more than 50% of your population is outside the homeland, then yes, it is very appropriate for somone like me to speak out against degenerative ideas.

Now, consider this, IMHO, there exists racial and ethnic differences in half Armenians that make a world of a difference. A Armenian that is half Assyrian, Greek, and some kind of Caucasian is relativily Armenian in appearence. And this is what I will say about the topic regarding you my Armenian friend.

Its not human of me to treat you the way you think I am treating, thats not my intentions, I have other motives, its larger then just you and half Armenians. Its funidmentally changing the way Armenians feel about themselves and making sure they see a brighter future versus being another pawn for another state for another thousand years. A people only strive to raise their standards if their is some fundimental value in raising their standards and most importantly, they see some value in
themselves and their way of life (i.e. Germans, Japanese, and etc ...).

[Virgil]

Re: Half Armenians

Understand, I don't want them to win. It is directly because of them that we are in this marginalized state. Every time we let our guard down do to the difficulties of immigration is a point for the other side.

[Armenian]

Re: Half Armenians

Virgil, I don't think that Azad is promoting inter-ethnic unions here. He, as well as I, simply accepts Armenians who were born in inter-ethnic families but show an inclination, a disposition, towards an Armenian identity. One does not control where he/she is born. As long as anyone has any amount of Armenian heritage and feels they are Armenian then they 'are' Armenian.

There is no such thing as "half" Armenian, if the person in question is fully Armenian by character, act and ideology. However, the best bet in raising Armenian children is by sticking to your kind. Simple as that.

We Armenians are not a racial group we are a cultural/ethnic group. Racially, the 100% Armenians amongst us can be related to Europeans, Middle Easterners, Caucasian or even Central Asians. There has been some mixing in our history which explains the wide variation of the Armenian phenotype. Let's also remember that some of our greatest figures in history were not 100% Armenians. As a matter of fact, in ancient times the term "Armenian" equaled either 'from the land of Armenia' or 'one that spoke Armenian.' The Armenian "ethnic" identity evolved during Ottoman/Perisan/Russian domination.

Anyway, being 100% Armenian means nothing. Go and see how the 100% "Armenians" in Istanbul live; go and take a look at the 100% "Armenians" in Beirut; go and look at some of the 100% "Armenian" trash that walk the streets of Yerevan... At the same time, however, a great majority of Armenians from mixed marriages are lost to assimilation. Inter-ethnic marriages must not be encouraged. But regardless of what you and I do, mixed marriages will occur - it's human. And when they do occur, we must accept the children of those marriages if the children feel Armenian - in mind, body and soul. We simply do not have a choice.

In final analysis, it's a person identity that is pivotal here and not the parentage. Nevertheless, I believe the only way to preserve or prolong the life of the Armenian Diaspora is to marry Armenians. Simple as that. But it would be absurd to treat Armenians from mixed marriages amongst us 'less' Armenian.

[melikianAvak]

Re: Half Armenians

I am 100% Armenian Blood and I am no more Armenian then the ones with less then 100%. If you are Armenian in your heart and call yourself Armenian, then you are an Armenian. My Children are Armenian and are 50% Armenian Blood.

A women who marries and Armenian male and has children with that man is an Armenian. She can have 0% Armenian blood; she is an Armenian and not an odar.

This is what the older Armenians of my day who were the survivors of the Genocide of the Armenians would say. I remember it like it was yesterday.

God Bless my parents and yours

Avak

[Virgil]

Re: Half Armenians

NOTE: The ideas expressed here are ideas, they represent opinions, please be advised that these opinions may be explicitly opposed to the opinions of a percent of the audience that is reading these opinions and therefore, any offense or any offended people I apologize to in advance.

Oh, this is not a "essay essay", its just my spring boad to launch ideas, so, if somthing is off, I apologizie, I am not working with references.

Virgil, I don't think that Azad is promoting inter-ethnic unions here. He, as well as I, simply accepts Armenians who were born in inter-ethnic families but show an inclination, a disposition, towards an Armenian identity. One does not control where he/she is born. As long as anyone has any amount of Armenian heritage and feels they are Armenian then they 'are' Armenian.

There is no such thing as "half" Armenian, if the person in question is fully Armenian by character, act and ideology. However, the best bet in raising Armenian children is by sticking to your kind. Simple as that.

We Armenians are not a racial group we are a cultural/ethnic group. Racially, the 100% Armenians amongst us can be related to Europeans, Middle Easterners, Caucasian or even Central Asians. There has been some mixing in our history which explains the wide variation of the Armenian phenotype. Let's also remember that some of our greatest figures in history were not 100% Armenians. As a matter of fact, in ancient times the term "Armenian" equaled either 'from the land of Armenia' or 'one that spoke Armenian.' The Armenian "ethnic" identity evolved during Ottoman/Perisan/Russian domination.

Anyway, being 100% Armenian means nothing. Go and see how the 100% "Armenians" in Istanbul live; go and take a look at the 100% "Armenians" in Beirut; go and look at some of the 100% "Armenian" trash that walk the streets of Yerevan... At the same time, however, a great majority of Armenians from mixed marriages are lost to assimilation. Inter-ethnic marriages must not be encouraged. But regardless of what you and I do, mixed marriages will occur - it's human. And when they do occur, we must accept the children of those marriages if the children feel Armenian - in mind, body and soul. We simply do not have a choice.

In final analysis, it's a person identity that is pivotal here and not the parentage. Nevertheless, I believe the only way to preserve or prolong the life of the Armenian Diaspora is to marry Armenians. Simple as that. But it would be absurd to treat Armenians from mixed marriages amongst us 'less' Armenian.

Armenian, I respect your opinions and I agree with your final analysis, but I don't agree with paragraph 2 and 3, the fact of the matter is being half Armenian and working your way back into the Armenian community is a oxymoron. Basically, it becomes harder and harder to convince people to follow what you specifically stated we must do as good Armenians because the original sin was commited.

When you lower standards its very hard to raise them again, psychologically this devalues the identity, it places it second, over time, again taken to infinite power, the identity becomes worthless. Essentially, man is driven by some value, either tangible or intangible, but somthing must exist. It becomes harder and harder for individuals to motivate themselves for a common cause when nothing comes of this cause, nothing they can relate to at least. Racial and ethnic differences eventually creates these barriers that lead to the devalued identity that lead to demotivation that lead to stagnation that, eventually, leads to extinction, this is the cycle, this is the truth.

Again, my intentions are not to bolster this idea that "everyone must be 100%", my intentions and motives are to reshape the Armenian identity to the proud people that we use to be instead of these degenerate gypsie people we are becoming,that have no love for ourselves other then superficial dances and languages. This in essence is what being a "Taparakan Zhoghuvoort" (Armenian word) means.

I still stand behind my original beleif that being nationalistic supercedes any other form of cultural "preservation" or ideas of a "spiritual Armenian". But I also beleive that a superior state is only superior because their exists no barriers between one another. I am fair, race and ethnicity breeds diversity, that for the most may be a positive force, but diversity is only positive when the state is in a relative stable, when the state goes into decline diversity fragments society, the original inhabitants are now only a line item on a decree of citizenship, while the diverse populations have become themselves the monoethnic and monoracial state superstate (This is what happend to the Romans, more on what constitutes a superstate later!). Conversly, when a state has minimual barriers among its citizens, regardless of the stability and instabillity of the state, the people act as one entity, their exists no defragmentation.

Essentially, the nationalistic mind with this idea of a monoethnic, monoracial state, in the authors opinion is the superstate. And this has nothing to do with the ideas of a "master race", do not confuse the two, thats racism (But racism only exists because fundimentally race exists and races and ethnic groups compete for the same resources, this is also a reality and the authors opinion), I am not stating that one race is better then the other, I am making it a point that differences exists and when it does exists society becomes fragmented, no unity leads to a decline.

Again, read what I write carfully, do not judge the reality of situation with the idealism of a "one world", as much as I am a realist, I use to be a idealist, and idealism is a one way street. Meaning, being a idealist is only good when their exists a gurantee that everyone is a idealist, fundimentally, this is what drives game theory. You have a game, if both opponents reach a equilibrium then their exists no way for both parties to advance against each other because their is no oppurtunity to advance, but when two opponents are competing and one has the oppurtunity to advance, they will take that chance and if successful, they will advance and outcompete the, respective, opposing opponent.

Again, going back to declining civilizations, they decline because the citizens within these civillizations are not motivated to make the bigger cycle of civilization work anymore, they become soft. Therefore, they have to give up segments of their society to the emerging population (i.e. immigrants) that are willing to take over the segments that these citizens find too demeaning to occupy. Eventually their exists two ends, the first being that, again, taken to the infinite power, these civilzations go through the same monoethnic and racial processes to homogonize their populations into one people or the civilization goes under because larger and larger segments are given to immigrants, these immigrants yearn for authonomy because they are doing all the work, and finally, the civilization has to cave in to the majority, the immigrants and new emerging population, and does so, destroying the civilization in the process. This emerging population has its own way of life and culture, thus, what a civilization that use to revolve around the ways of "X" now revolves around the ways of "Y".

Thus far, historically speaking, no culture has accomplished the previous scnario, as much as you can be a idealist and pretend that everyone will adopt a certain way of life, the fact of the matter is, they won't. This happend to the Romans, The Byzantines, the Persian, and etc ... In fact this is the reason why Turks are in Anatolia, they started on the bottom level of the Byzantine Empire, eventually, while Greeks and Armenians were arguing over primative spiritual rights, Turks were learning and moving up in Byzantine society, eventually replacing the Byzantine Empire with that of the Ottoman Empire.

Fundimentally, my opinion can be summed up in the idea that the state is greater then the individua, not just any state, the superstatel. Most Armenians believe the individual is greater then the state, this is wrong, not presently, yes, maybe before we had a Armenia, but not currently. And furthermore, the idea that a fragmented society is ok, or somehow we should tolerate, will only destroy the monoethnic and monoracial communities we have already established.

[Armenian]

Re: Half Armenians

Virgil, with some reservations I agree with most of what you have stated. You have proven to be an Armenian extremist, and God knows we need more of your type within our ranks. I simply ask you to reconsider how you look at mixed Armenians. No one here is promoting mixing. However, when mixing does occur, and it will naturally occur in the diaspora, their children should be accepted by us if they reveal a commitment to an Armenian identity. Besides, if an Armenian does not care to maintain an Armenian identity they will not be in an Armenian setting in the first place. What's more, like it or not, children of mixed marriages will eventually become a majority within the Armenian diaspora. Are you willing to write-off the entire diaspora? And don't forget that many of these mixed Armenians will become important individuals someday as well. For example, look at the Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov - father Armenian, mother Russian. Another example is New York State Congressman John Sweeney - father Irish, mother Armenian. Another example is the Lebanese President Emile Lahoud - father Lebanese, mother Armenian. The list is very big. Was it their fault that they were born in mixed marriages? Are we better than them in any way? Why turn these people away? Why make them resent us? Why not make them feel welcome amongst us? It is in our nation's benefit to do so.