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Re: Etymology of Armenian First Names
I have appreciated the importance of the usage of a name, unless names such as Jean, Jacques, Joe, Jack, etc. which are clearly non-Armenian, widely used by non-Armenians and most times limited to a specific community. What's more, including these names in a dictionary favours their usage and could make them more spread.
I see what you mean but the opposite could also be true; sometimes the smallest lexical or phonetic change could make difference.
Yes, especially 'Artins' and 'Arutins', they are mentioned on the birth certificate instead of Haroutioun. It is common among the younger generations.
I mean names, for instance; used frequently, moderately, rarely then there are some cases which would fit somewhere between…and the latter seems to be a problem.
LOL, none but you are definitely seeing blurry. The Persian Rafii today is uniquely used as a surname not a first name that's why I said 'however', in other words, you can't find 'arti Parsiks' named Raffi, also contrary to what Shirak's dictionary says. See my explanation on the links.
By the way, you are always organized and I appreciate it.
Armenians or Raffi, the novelist??
The Iranians have not added anything since the word itself is Persian.
If I'm not mistaken you mean; they sometimes replace the Armenian 'ա' by the English 'a' as in 'sad', right? It's a Persian influence.
His name is 'Rafiebn' and clearly Arabic, even if anything, he is not an arti Parsik anyway.
He is not Iranian but Jewish so most probably his name his Rafael.
Where does it suggest that the guy is Persian?? 
Furthermore, the guy simply cannot be Persian since the word "kir" in his surname refers to male's private parts in Persian.
Yes, here this is correct, Rafii as a surname pronounced as something like Ռաֆիը or Ռաֆիի. In your previous posts, when you quoted "One last detail, it says - in the Armenian section of the dictionary - "Raffi anoun@ g@ kordzadzen arti Barsignern al." Is that true?" from Shirak's dictionary, I was thinking of first names in Persian but didn't find anything matching Raffi since it doesn't exist but when I saw the Ali Rafii (a 'familiar' name in the Iranian cinema) the penny dropped. But honestly the pronounciation was so different that it could never cross my mind, especially that a letter is dropped in the Armenian version and the two others ( 'r' and 'a') are pronounced differentely.
LOL, no I meant from a lexical and phonetic point of view, as I have explained how.
I don't agree on this and I have already said why.
What?? Iranians??? I said Arbi is not common among non-Armenians, including Iranians.
Considering that he was a Persian-Armenian, the first option is something to think about.
LOL, it gets more confusing. I never knew he has changed the Ռ to Ր…
I dug out some old books and read up on his biography but found nothing worthy of mentioning, regarding his pen name. Also, I came across this detailed biography of Raffi on the net; although it does not give much information about his pen name but it's worth reading, it was touching…
Sometimes, vowels are not explicit in Farsi. So what? First off, there is no vowel in Serj between 'r' and 'j', and then why add one to make 'Seroj'??
Originally posted by Siamanto
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2. You continue to give too much imortance to certain lexical or phonetic differences, specially when different languages, regions and periods are considered.
As a Diasporan Armenian you have probably had the opportunity to witness all the many ways Armenian First Names can be transliterated, transformed and "butchered."
As a Diasporan Armenian you have probably had the opportunity to witness all the many ways Armenian First Names can be transliterated, transformed and "butchered."
I see what you mean but the opposite could also be true; sometimes the smallest lexical or phonetic change could make difference.
1. Just curious, what do you exactly mean by "independently?" Does it mean that their Birth Certificate says "Sako" instead of "Sarkis?" If yes, to what percentage of cases does it apply? According to my experience, a person called "Sako" in life, is called "Sarkis" on the Birth Certificate and a person called "Artin," "Haroutioun." Of course, there may be exceptions, but how often does it occur?
2. As you can tell from the above that "among senior Armenians" was applied only to "Artin." I don't know how it is in Iran, but I don't know if the younger generations use "Artin" for "Haroutioun."
Are you saying that young Armenians call a Harout "Artin" and/or have "Artin" - as First Name - on their Birth Certificate?
2. As you can tell from the above that "among senior Armenians" was applied only to "Artin." I don't know how it is in Iran, but I don't know if the younger generations use "Artin" for "Haroutioun."
Are you saying that young Armenians call a Harout "Artin" and/or have "Artin" - as First Name - on their Birth Certificate?
Yes, especially 'Artins' and 'Arutins', they are mentioned on the birth certificate instead of Haroutioun. It is common among the younger generations.
Why not? It's nothing unusual, even in a regular dictionary, because a dictionary is not only about the meaning or origin of a word, it's also about the usage of a word.
How is it possible? That is a simple technical detail. What is the challenge?
How is it possible? That is a simple technical detail. What is the challenge?
I mean names, for instance; used frequently, moderately, rarely then there are some cases which would fit somewhere between…and the latter seems to be a problem.
LOL But you're seeing either blurry or magnified.
1. I don't understand your statement "however there is a common surname" when I gave examples of "Raffi" and "Rafi" used not only as a surname but also as a First Name; I even organized them to make it more obvious????
1. I don't understand your statement "however there is a common surname" when I gave examples of "Raffi" and "Rafi" used not only as a surname but also as a First Name; I even organized them to make it more obvious????
By the way, you are always organized and I appreciate it.
2. LOL *stares at you and smiles about the 'ը '* What makes you think that Armenians did not drop the 'ը' as well as some? What makes you think that Iranians did not add the 'ը'? Have you heard of the expression "You say tomato, I say tomahto?"
The Iranians have not added anything since the word itself is Persian.
Similar differences in pronunciation exist between different regions and communities speaking the same language. Simply compare how Armenians from Iran pronounce the vowels in Armenian to - for instance - Armenians speaking Western Armenians. I'm not even talking about regional dialects.
By the way, for my ears, compared to other Armenians, Armenians from Iran, pronounce the 'ա' differently in every word.
By the way, for my ears, compared to other Armenians, Armenians from Iran, pronounce the 'ա' differently in every word.
3. Can you please explain in what sense the links are not "accurate" - so I can look for more "accurate" ones - because your explanation above was nowhere near convincing? Thanks.
As I see it, "Rafi/Raffi" was used among Iranians, in the past and the present.
Rafi
Past: Rafi ibn Harthama
As I see it, "Rafi/Raffi" was used among Iranians, in the past and the present.
Rafi
Past: Rafi ibn Harthama
Present: Rafi Pitts or Raffi Pitts
He is not Iranian but Jewish so most probably his name his Rafael.
Raffi:
Now: Raffi Kirdi
Now: Raffi Kirdi
Furthermore, the guy simply cannot be Persian since the word "kir" in his surname refers to male's private parts in Persian.
Last Name: Ali Raffi
What do you mean by "seems to me far from our 'Րաֆֆի?'" LOL *hopes that you don't mean physically*
What is your point?
What is your point?
1. I would not discard those cases that easily, as they are, from a usage point of view, much less "small cases" than "Siamanto" because it's more likely to meet an Armenian bearing one of the above mentioned names.
2. "How many French [or Russian, American, Iranian etc.] names should be included to cover the many French Armenians who often use French names?" The answer was already suggested i.e.
" Of course, if included, it should mention the origin and may only include the most frequent ones - for practical reasons.'
2. "How many French [or Russian, American, Iranian etc.] names should be included to cover the many French Armenians who often use French names?" The answer was already suggested i.e.
" Of course, if included, it should mention the origin and may only include the most frequent ones - for practical reasons.'
LOL because "Arbi" is "Armenian( as a word?)"
On a more serious not, Sebastia was a historic Armenian city and Sebastopol is located in a region called "Maritime Armenia" - so the point was that "Sebastian" may have an Armenian origin; yet, it's more commonly used among non-Armenians.
Do you remember your comments about "Arbi" being more widely used among Armenians than other Iranians?
On a more serious not, Sebastia was a historic Armenian city and Sebastopol is located in a region called "Maritime Armenia" - so the point was that "Sebastian" may have an Armenian origin; yet, it's more commonly used among non-Armenians.
Do you remember your comments about "Arbi" being more widely used among Armenians than other Iranians?
What?? Iranians??? I said Arbi is not common among non-Armenians, including Iranians.
It can also be that "Raffi" has two origins i.e.
1. A Perso-Arabic origin
2. A diminutive of "Rafael/Rapael" that may or may not have initially been "Rafi/Rapi"
At times, usage and time erode differences and creates "confusion" or add "noise" to create differences.
That's my inclination, but we don't know yet.
1. A Perso-Arabic origin
2. A diminutive of "Rafael/Rapael" that may or may not have initially been "Rafi/Rapi"
At times, usage and time erode differences and creates "confusion" or add "noise" to create differences.
That's my inclination, but we don't know yet.
According to Shirak's dictionary - and it insists - the late writer changed B]Ռ[/B]աֆֆի to Րաֆֆի.
Is that impossible? Do you have data to disprove it? It would be nice to find a biographical document about Raffi, the novelist, that addresses this issue.
Is that impossible? Do you have data to disprove it? It would be nice to find a biographical document about Raffi, the novelist, that addresses this issue.
LOL, it gets more confusing. I never knew he has changed the Ռ to Ր…
I dug out some old books and read up on his biography but found nothing worthy of mentioning, regarding his pen name. Also, I came across this detailed biography of Raffi on the net; although it does not give much information about his pen name but it's worth reading, it was touching…
LOL *stares at you and smiles* But in "Seroj" there exists a vowel between 'r' and 'j' that was probably added because because vowels in Farsi may not be explicit???
Sometimes, vowels are not explicit in Farsi. So what? First off, there is no vowel in Serj between 'r' and 'j', and then why add one to make 'Seroj'??
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