Remember The First Holocaust

[1.5 million]

Do you recall this exchange? (my response to your very first post - giving you [an obvious novice on this issue] some good advice) - I proposed that you read and educate yourself a bit before comming onto this forum (in the manner of a Genocide denying Turk) and begin to spout off your opinion...as if... and your response - you accuse me of suggesting reandom books, talking out my ass, acting like a child and say I am just wrapped up in emotion and lack the ability to think. Well well - you are the expert I guess and can just afford to reject good advice out of hand...who are you to claim that I don't understand this issue and to start insulting me? Have you read my past posts? Do you really know jack? no!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1.5 million
W E B - read Holocaust survivor Robert Melson's book - Revolution and Genocide - comparing the origins of the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide....then come back to this forum when you more know what you are talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W E B
I'm sorry but mentioning some random books and talking out of your ass, will not lead me to believe that I don't know what I am talking about and that you are anymore more than a person who is not interested in the truth, but only in acting like a child.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1.5 million
Melson labled the Armenian Genocide and the Jewish Holocaust as the only two incidents of total domenstic genocide in the modern world. Additionally WInston Churchill (accuratly) called the Armenian Genocide a Holocaust in a book he wrote in (I believe) 1917. Just curious if any of these facts might cause you to doubt your apparent hasty and ill-informed conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W E B
I don't care WHO labeled the Armenian Genocide what. Only a complete fool would let others do his thinking for them. Hasty and ill-informed my foot. You are just a person totally rapped up in emotion and lacking any ability to think.

[phantom]

Do you recall this exchange? (my response to your very first post - giving you [an obvious novice on this issue] some good advice) - I proposed that you read and educate yourself a bit before comming onto this forum (in the manner of a Genocide denying Turk) and begin to spout off your opinion...as if... and your response - you accuse me of suggesting reandom books, talking out my ass, acting like a child and say I am just wrapped up in emotion and lack the ability to think. Well well - you are the expert I guess and can just afford to reject good advice out of hand...who are you to claim that I don't understand this issue and to start insulting me? Have you read my past posts? Do you really know jack? no!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1.5 million
W E B - read Holocaust survivor Robert Melson's book - Revolution and Genocide - comparing the origins of the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide....then come back to this forum when you more know what you are talking about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W E B
I'm sorry but mentioning some random books and talking out of your ass, will not lead me to believe that I don't know what I am talking about and that you are anymore more than a person who is not interested in the truth, but only in acting like a child.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1.5 million
Melson labled the Armenian Genocide and the Jewish Holocaust as the only two incidents of total domenstic genocide in the modern world. Additionally WInston Churchill (accuratly) called the Armenian Genocide a Holocaust in a book he wrote in (I believe) 1917. Just curious if any of these facts might cause you to doubt your apparent hasty and ill-informed conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by W E B
I don't care WHO labeled the Armenian Genocide what. Only a complete fool would let others do his thinking for them. Hasty and ill-informed my foot. You are just a person totally rapped up in emotion and lacking any ability to think.

1.5, I see eye to eye with you on the issue of the Genocide. But I think you need to definitely take it down a notch in your anger and tone. Your first post to WEB was appropriate in content, but not in tone. I think that resulted in an immediate breakdown in communication.

Look, despite the proliferating number of denialists that we deal with here, we should still give everyone the benefit of the doubt. At the very least let's be patient and not be too hasty with our angry retorts.

I know what you're going to say. Would Jews accept even the tiniest hint of denial or equivocation in a forum dedicated to the Jewish Holocaust? No, but we don't have the luxury of being Jews. We are Armenians, and few people know or care about us or our history. Thus, we have no choice but to be patient with their ignorance. If a person has shown some interest in our history, it's our responsibility to engage them and educate them, not the reverse. I know you tried to do that with WEB, but again, it was your tone that lead to a breakdown.

WEB, the book that 1.5 recommended is written by a Jewish historian who is an expert on comparative studies in Genocide. His book provides a detailed account of the similarities and differences between the Armenian and Jewish experiences. If you read that book, you may understand why 1.5, and others here who have read that book and many others about the Holocaust and Armenian Genocide, feel your view of the use of the word Holocaust is overly simplistic.

[1.5 million]

Phantom - I understand what you are saying - but in fact I feel that my first reponse to him was entirely appropriate and measured (particualrly if you consider that I had pegged him initially as another denying Turk of the type who have invaded this forum of late). I'm more then tired of being lectured to by people who are basically ignorant of the facts and this WEB is consitant with this - lecturing instead of really asking good questions. So yeah - I've had enough of this - my initial response was entirely factual and on target and my tone was appropriate IMO. It was he who then attacked me - and truly exposed his ignorance and (pre-existing) attitude problem. At that point its gloves off. I have lost all patience with stupidity. And I believe it is I who is owed an apology and not the other way around.

[phantom]

Phantom - I understand what you are saying - but in fact I feel that my first reponse to him was entirely appropriate and measured (particualrly if you consider that I had pegged him initially as another denying Turk of the type who have invaded this forum of late). I'm more then tired of being lectured to by people who are basically ignorant of the facts and this WEB is consitant with this - lecturing instead of really asking good questions. So yeah - I've had enough of this - my initial response was entirely factual and on target and my tone was appropriate IMO. It was he who then attacked me - and truly exposed his ignorance and (pre-existing) attitude problem. At that point its gloves off. I have lost all patience with stupidity. And I believe it is I who is owed an apology and not the other way around.

Well, IMO, your tone was not appropriate for a first response. Moreover, your tone probably was inappropriate because you had pegged him (falsely) as a denialist, which he is not. So, my advice, which you don't have to take, is to not judge too quickly, lest you make a mistake like in this case, and to have more patience. Let's not drive people away unless they are hopeless deniers.

[Joseph]

Well, IMO, your tone was not appropriate for a first response. Moreover, your tone probably was inappropriate because you had pegged him (falsely) as a denialist, which he is not. So, my advice, which you don't have to take, is to not judge too quickly, lest you make a mistake like in this case, and to have more patience. Let's not drive people away unless they are hopeless deniers.

I agree. One thing I can say is that 1.5 million definitely knows his sh*t!
I made the same mistake with WEB DuBois when he first posted, we got off on the wrong foot but I can see I was wrong. I checked out his site and saw that he had a confrontation with a Genocide denier and he more than held his own and this is a subject, a subject where he does not know as much as we do and is still learning. He doesn't have a horse in this race.
I any event, 1.5 million is cool and he posts some great stufff here which I enjoy reading.

[1.5 million]

Thank you Joseph. However I was only wrong in part (he wasn't a Turk who was doing a reletively soft lead in but would soon be denying full force - etc). However he was making some typical (offensive to those of us who know) statements - such as AG cannot be compared to Holocaust - there was no intent or systematic destruction, loss of life not so severe - etc. You and I both know that these are typical denialist buzz words and at the very least speak to severe ignorance on the part of the poster. I reposted WEBs response to what I feel was a very appropriate response to this type of intial posting from him. Sure I alluded to his ignorance - but what I did was to provide a reference to a scholarly text that directly addressed all the issues he raised. He then began name calling and really expressing his ignorance (I mean come now read it over). So I did no wrong and from my perspective it is on him to show a bit of humility and apoligize. All that being said I do not take your & Phantom's critique lightly nor do I dismiss it out of hand. I respect both of you guys...but you have to understand where I am comming from on this one and in regards to other utterances of ignorant crap on this issue. I've had quite enough of it over the years and it has hardened my position considerably. You may have read some of my initial posts on this forum - if not I urge you to do so. You should know that I am very balanced and not hateful - that I have tried to reach out to Turks - to a greater degree then perhaps even Phantom has in the past...actually I wold contend this to be true and I am very familiar with his past efforts on Turkish forums. I have been involved in soem very fruitful and productive discussions of these issues with educated Turks, I have absorbed and understand the Turkish perspectives on this issues (legitimate and otherwise), I have patiently attempted to convey our perspective as well as work toward common ground...I have imparted a great deal of knowledge to Turks and others about these events and have had some success getting through to at least a small number of Turks. I am more then happy to operate in this mode when I feel that there is a chance of receptivity and such. However, my recent experience is that the vast majority of Turks who come to forums such as these are no where near capable - due to indoctrination, forced perspective and lack of education/exposure and unwillingness to open up beyond their pre-conditioned perspective. (Not to say that there are not plenty of Turks who are way beyond this - there are - we just see very few of them here and in general they are the execption and not the rule). And the WEB is an idiot of another kind. He thinks he knows better - that he is some kind of expert - that there is really nothing he can gain by interaction with more knowledgeble folks - nor does he feel the need to really research and understand this issue beyond a headline level. It is up to him to realize and understand these shortcommings and do something about it. I am always willing to do my part with people who have the desire/attitude - I mean look at the lengthy posts I have made on this subject - and articulated specifically to issues raised and from a distillation of all that I know and have researched on the issue - not just cut and paste jobs - and even then its with context etc. I have certainly made the effort - and I don't take kindly to anyone (WEB) portraying otherwise when they don't know jack S.

[Joseph]

http://www.warcrimes.info/shop/html/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=375

Article with pictures

[1.5 million]

Joseph - that is one of the best brief descriptions of the Armenian genocide that I have ever read. A very impressive summation.

[Joseph]

Joseph - that is one of the best brief descriptions of the Armenian genocide that I have ever read. A very impressive summation.

I thought so too. For a brief description, it makes the Armenian Genocide very clear for those who know nothing about what occured.

[Joseph]

Assyrian International News Agency
Turkey and the Armenian Genocide: Contemporary Reflections

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Posted GMT 4-24-2007 14:35:12

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Today, on 24th April, Armenians will commemorate the 92nd anniversary of the Armenian Genocide. They will remember their forbears - well over one million Armenian men, women and children - who were killed in various odious ways by Ottoman Turkey under cover of WWI.

The serious academic world is well beyond 'researching' the Armenian Genocide. Many international associations and individual experts specialising in the history let alone psychology of genocide have established time and again the unarguable veracity of this event. However, the modern-day Turkish establishment and its cohorts continue relentlessly to deny this genocide with rehearsed and glib arguments that are truly farcical were they not also shameful. Simply put, Armenians were almost wiped off the Ottoman map during the period 1915 till 1923 in a dual policy that blended a Turkish Ottoman desire for dominion over a pan-Turkic region with vengefulness for its bitter defeat in WWI. One need only read Donald Bloxham's thoughtful The Great Game of Genocide: Imperialism, Nationalism and the Destruction of Ottoman Armenians or Taner Akçam's trenchant A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility that uses Ottoman Turkish state documents and contemporary Turkish statements to corroborate that the genocide against Armenians was a gripping historical reality. The city of Trabzon for example, where Hrant Dink's killer purportedly originated from, is simply one example amongst countless others of "killing members of a group" or "deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part" (according to Art II [a] & [c] of the Genocide Convention 1948) where Turkish authorities in 1915 herded thousands of Armenians on boats, set them off into the Black Sea and later drowned them with sheer impunity.

Given this sobering reality, I believe that Turkish contemporary refusal to admit the guilt of its predecessor regime of the crime of genocide is due in part to a psychological phenomenon of individual and collective defensiveness against the perception of being accused by its enemies (Armenians) and by its non-friends (supporters of the Armenian efforts for recognition). As was written in an editorial I read only last week, if Turkey were to be candid about its past rather than hide behind threats, intimidation and obfuscations, it would recall that the Sultan tried to distance himself in 1916 from the actions of the CUP, the 'state within the state', and reassured the British Government that the perpetrators of those egregious crimes would be punished - as was the case with the four trials whose proceedings were included in the government gazette.

Today, this phase of denial intensifies once more despite the encouraging initial steps adopted by Turkey when negotiations for its possible accession to the EU started formally in 2005. Now, however, instead of moving forward, Turkey shows perceptible signs of regression as it passes laws such as Articles 301 or 312 of the Turkish Penal Code that have prosecuted Turks and non-Turks alike, those living in the country or abroad, either for "defaming Turkishness" or for "insulting Ataturk". Those who have suffered the brunt of such laws include the likes of Orhan Pamuk, Perihan Magden, Murat Belge, Ismet Berkan, Hasan Cemal, Elif Safak, Semih Sokmen, Ibrahim Kaboglu, Baskin Oran, Halil Altindere, Murat Pabuc, Eren Keskin, Ragip Zarakolu, Ahmet Onal, Fatih Tas, Rahmi Yildirim, Erol Ozkoray, Osman Tiftikci and Sirri Ozturk, Osman Pamukoğlu, EU Commissioner Joost Lagendjik, HH Karekin II, Michael xxxxinson, Ipek Calislar, Abdullah Dilipak and Mehmet Sevki Eygi, Yalçın Ergündoğan and Ibrahim Cesmecioglu, Attila Yayla, Belma Akçura, Cuneyt Arcayurek, Tuncay Ozkan, Taner Akçam, Attila Tuygan and Mehmet Ali Varış. In fact, merely defining the Armenian deportations in 1915 as "genocide" is interpreted as "defaming Turkishness". One such instance occurred when Erhan Akay was convicted to five months of prison for his article in Cagri entitled Time to Confront the Armenian Question After 90 Years.

But it is even more disgraceful in the institutional politics of denial pursued by Turkey when international organisations that are meant to uphold International law and speak out against genocide kow-tow to the political pressures of denial. I cite here how the UN, under its new leadership, bowed recently to Turkey's demands and blocked a scheduled opening of an exhibition at UN headquarters commemorating the 13th anniversary of the Rwandan genocide solely because it had mentioned the mass murder of the Armenians. Ankara was offended by a sentence that explained how genocide came to be recognised as a crime under international law: "Following World War I during which one million Armenians were murdered in Turkey, Polish lawyer Raphael Lemkin urged the League of Nations to recognize crimes of barbarity as international crimes." The British-based organisers of this exhibition were willing to omit the words "in Turkey", but this was clearly not enough for the UN aficionados, and the exhibit has been put on hold. Nearer to our own European shores, I also cite the [heretofore successful] Turkish pressures exercised over Germany, as current President of the Council of the European Union, to remove the case of the Armenian Genocide as an illustrative example (the other two are the Jewish Holocaust and Rwandan Genocide) for a pan-European law that is currently being drafted to outlaw genocide denial in all twenty-five EU countries.

When will Turkey decide to follow a post-nationalist attitude to history? When will it realise that every time it strives to curtail any discussion of the Armenian Genocide, it only draws wider attention to the subject and links today's Turkey with the crimes of its predecessor regime? When will certain elements within Turkish society realise that their campaign of vilification, libel, lies and smut on different Internet websites against prominent Turkish and foreign scholars or journalists the likes of Taner Akçam, Robert Fisk or Mike Joseph is not only scurrilous but depicts Turks in the least favourable light? Should Turkey not underline - rather than undermine - its Eurocentric credentials as it seeks to join the EU fold? Indeed, it should revise the Turkish Criminal Code and stop applying its Anti-Terror Law (TMY). It should also stop confiscating books, suspending or trying writers, journalists, publishers, intellectuals, translators and human rights activists, muzzling the press and discriminating against its different minorities instead of protecting them.

Once those rudimental changes are implemented and begin to take root, when Turkish judicial chauvinism expires, and when the Turkish establishment listens to some of its own academics and comes clean on the genocide by recognising it, Armenians would then express their responsibility by showing a necessary measure of soul-searching and dealing politically with their ninety-two-year-old emotional pain. Who knows, such a devolution might well lead toward neighbourliness let alone prosperity and ultimately forgiven friendships between Armenians and Turks - as was the case largely before the heinous pogroms of the late 1800's and the subsequent genocide.

By Dr. Harry Hagopian

https://www.newropeans-magazine.org