Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[Hovik]

WOW, its getting hot in here. Okay my friends, I am off to the beautiful and refreshing Republic of Armenia once again. I am leaving tomorrow morning and will be back in a couple of weeks. Take care, and don't get too heated. Turks, stay cool - there is no sense in getting your little pink panties in a bundle - you'll be recognizing this Genocide one day whether you like it or not
Peace - Hov

[Tongue]

Moderator wrote:

Moderator:
What about if you are a half-Turk like myself? Can my Italian half participate in the debate? I already suggested you to create virtual despicable Turkish characters and educate/insult/ban/kick them as you please. That would also serve as a treatment for your ego problem. So finally you decided to take my advice huh?

Despite your warm! attitude, I thought this site was a forum for exchanging views about the suffering of Armenians. Unfortunately, since Turks and Armenians cohabited for centuries, talking about Armenian sufferings is mentioned sometimes in context with Turkish sufferings. If this totally natural and human fact is insulting, go ahead and ban & delete me immediately. If you however, try to threaten Turks and others who support positions which are not 100% your favourite, this will not work. YOU CAN'T PRETEND TO BE DEMOCRATIC & OBJECTIVE WHILE PRESSURIZING PEOPLE TO THINK LIKE YOU. You can kick us out, or discuss with us in a civilized way. You have no third option.

It's not the nationality that matters. From now on, the ones denying the genocide will be banned. This is not a forum for "exchanging views about the suffering of Armenians". The views about the sufferings are crystal clear, if you're too blind to see that, I suggest you leave the forum. I can care less if you're a pure or half Turk. Whoever you are, of whatever nationality, if your posts are denying the Armenian genocide I take it as a personal insult and will ban you. As I said, you're more than welcome to stay and ask us questions about the genocide, but if you simply register to deny the genocide, you are a disgrace to humanity, I find your posts disrespectful and insulting and will ban you. Enough is enough. 90 years of Turkish denial is way too long, I will not let it continue on this forum.

[Reincarnated Am]

Ankara Condemns Dissident Conference On Armenian Genocide

(AFP) - Turkish Justice Minister Cemil Cicek Tuesday accused of "treason" a group of academics organizing a conference to question Turkey's official position on the mass killings of Armenians under the Ottoman Empire, the Anatolia news agency reported.

The three-day conference, which opens Wednesday at Istanbul's prestigious Bogazici University, will be attended by Turkish academics and intellectuals who dispute Ankara's version of the 1915-1917 massacres, recognized as genocide by several countries.

Cicek condemned the initiative as a blow to government efforts to counter a mounting Armenian campaign to have the killings recognized internationally as genocide, which many fear may cloud Turkey's bid to join the European Union. "This is a stab in the back to the Turkish nation... this is irresponsibility," Anatolia quoted Cicek as saying at a parliamentary debate.

"We must put an end to this cycle of treason and insult, of spreading propaganda against the (Turkish) nation by people who belong to it," he said.

The opposition joined the criticism. Sukru Elekdag, a senior MP for the main opposition Republican People's Party and a retired ambassador, called the conference "a treacherous project" aimed at disseminating pro-Armenian propaganda "under the guise of research."

Conference organizers said in a press statement that "it is high time Turkey's own academics and intellectuals collectively raise voices that differ from the official stance" on the Armenian killings. "The expression of critical and alternative opinions will be to Turkey's benefit, because it will show how rich in pluralist thinking Turkish society actually is," the statement said.

Armenians say up to 1.5 million of their kinsmen were killed by the Ottomans in what was a genocide between 1915 and 1917. Ankara argues that 300,000 Armenians and at least as many Turks died in civil strife during World War I, when the Armenians took up
arms for independence in eastern Anatolia and sided with Russian troops invading the crumbling Ottoman Empire.

Ankara fears that the genocide allegations could fuel anti-Turkish sentiment in international public opinion and cloud its image at a time when it is vying for EU membership.

[Tongue]

How about the 500,000 or so turks that were subject to "Armenian massacres"?

Armenian massacres? Never heard of it before... (well I have, but only from some turkish forumers!)
So you say 500,000... the Turkish protesters on April 24 (I still don't believe it!) held a sign saying 3 million. So pathetic. Can't even agree on a number huh?

"Agitation and terror were needed to elevate the spirit of the people. The party aimed at terrorizing the Ottoman Government, thus contributing toward lowering the prestige of that regime and working toward its complete disintegration. The Hunchaks wanted to annihilate the most dangerous of the Armenian and Turkish individuals who were then working for the government as well as to destroy all spies and informers. To assist them in carrying out all of these terrorist acts, the party was to organize an exclusive branch specifically devoted to performing acts of terrorism. The most opportune time to institute the general rebellion for carrying out the immediate objectives was when Turkey was engaged in war". A fellow Armenian: Louise Nalbandian, a leading Armenian researcher, Armenian Revolutionary Movement, University of California Press, 1963


"Many massacres were committed by the Armenians until our army arrived in Erzurum... (after General Odesilitze left) 2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men. There are ax, bayonet and bullet wounds on the dead bodies. Lungs of the bodies were removed and sharp stakes were struck in the eyes. There are other bodies around the city." Official telegram of the Third Royal Army Command, addressed to the Supreme Command, March 19, 1918; ATASE Archive of General Staff, Archive No: 4-36-71. D. 231. G.2. K. 2820. Dos.A-69, Fih.3.

"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks." A fellow Armenian: Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.

"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Muslim Army, it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well." General Bronsart von Schellendorf , Deutsche Allgemeine Zeitung, July 24, 1921.

"...In the early part of 1915, therefore, every Turkish city contained thousands of Armenians who had been trained as soldiers and who were supplied with rifles, pistols, and other weapons of defense. The operations at Van once more disclosed that these men could use their weapons to good advantage..." Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story, Doubleday, Page & Co., Garden City, New York (1918), page 301.

If you ask me; you, as a nation, are quite confused... While <i>your Patriarch</i>, Mesrob II, Armenian Patriarch says "Historical questions should be left to historians" (2001); <i>your government</i> refuses to send Armenian historians to examine the Turkish archives, interact, investigate and debate with their Turkish counterparts.

You've been banging on Turkey's door for years to open the border and establish diplomatic relations and you still claim Eastern Anatolia to be part of your homeland.

You don't mention a single innocent Turk being murdered in Armenian massacres in Eastern Anatolia and yet you claim "the views about the sufferings are crystal clear."

Last but not least, you put together a forum so that people can get together for open discussion and yet you threaten to ban anyone not having the same opinion as you!..

It seems to me that the Western societies you live in have not yet succeeded in teaching you democracy, freedom of speech and tolerance towards different opinions. I bet the Turks are to blame for that too?

First of, don't you dare quote Morganthau against us, I suggest you read his ENTIRE BOOK about the Armenian genocide before quoting his one sentence. And you know what, I'm really sick of your excuses. There was a war, Armenians rebelled, blah blah blah.... as I said, memories don't fade! photos don't fade! documents don't fade! eyewitness accounts don't fade! And guess what? we're not giving up!

Oh and don't bother registering again.

[Reincarnated Am]

A government that says, “Our archives are open to everyone” this is how they show the world their true faces




Turkey Postpones Conference On Armenian Genocide


By Ayla Jean Yackley

(Reuters) - A Turkish university facing accusations of treason has postponed a conference that offered a platform to academics questioning a national policy that denies any World War One genocide of Armenians.

The conference, due to start on Wednesday at Istanbul's Bosphorus University, was organized as Muslim Turkey faces mounting pressure from the European Union to accept that mass killings of Christian Armenians starting in 1915 was genocide.

Turkey's pro-European government has broken with past administrations and said it is willing to discuss historical differences with Armenians, but official policy still vehemently rejects claims that 1.5 million Armenians were slaughtered. It accepts that hundreds of thousands of Armenians were killed by Ottoman Turks but says even more Turks died in a partisan conflict that erupted as the Ottoman Empire collapsed.

Justice Minister Cemil Cicek said in parliament on Tuesday the conference by Turkish historians who say genocide occurred was a "stab in the back of the Turkish people. "We must end this treason, the spreading of propaganda against Turkey by the people who belong to it," he said.

Bosphorus University said it had decided to put off the conference because of the prevailing climate. "We are anxious that, as a state university, scientific freedom will be compromised due to prejudices about a conference that has not yet occurred," it said in a statement.

Edhem Eldem, a Bosphorus University historian, said organizers had not yet decided whether they would hold a conference at a later date or scrap the event completely. "The side that will suffer the greatest loss is, unfortunately, Turkey," Eldem said.

The European Union has said it wants to see Turkey improve ties with neighboring Armenia before it begins EU entry talks later this year. Some European officials have gone further, saying Turkey must acknowledge wrongdoing before starting talks.

An EU diplomat called Cicek's remarks "unbelievable. "It not only kills the government's policy on the Armenian issue. It will also kill support for Turkey's EU drive," the diplomat told Reuters.

Hrant Dink, editor of the Armenian weekly Agos, echoed that view. "This (decision) strengthens the hand of those outside Turkey who say, 'Turkey has not changed, it is not democratic enough to discuss the Armenian issue.' It shows there is a difference between what the government says and its intentions."

Several European nations, including Poland, France and Greece, have passed resolutions that recognize the genocide. French President Jacques Chirac, whose country is home to Europe's largest Armenian Diaspora, urged Turkey this week to recognize the genocide and said failure to do so could harm Ankara's drive to join the EU.

Turkey has accused Europe of using the Armenian issue to mask efforts against Turkey's inclusion in the affluent bloc.

[Tongue]

Shame on you Tongue!
Shame on you all enemies of history!
Now quoting Morgenthau becomes a crime! You should be more ashamed that especially Morgenthau, who definitely recognizes genocide, is also reporting attrocities committed by Turks. When it comes to responding to other books by Armenians, you are silent as usual.

You rightfully claim that Armenians suffered more than the Turks because the Ottoman state authority was in the hands of the Turks.

Look what happens when you Armenians have the slightest authority, such as the authrity to ban members from this forum!

Shame on you Tongue, how dare you ban someone who says Armenian genocide is a lie and you're all prevaricators? Is that it? You're complaining about Armenians being given authority, let me ask you something, what happens in Turkey when someone uses the 'G' word?

And about Morgenthau, the person is denying the genocide, yet quoting Morgenthau. You see where this is going? He obviously found his quote from the tall...tale site just like the rest of the quotes he posted. So I suggest he reads Morgenthau's entire book on the Armenian genocide and how it was planned and carried, before copy/pasting one of his quotes from an awfully despicable site to our forum.

So what is it that you're sayin? Armenians rebelled against the Ottoman government or something down those lines? Well ofcouse, to deny something so big you need a good excuse and I suppose you've found it. Too bad it's not sufficient enough to justify the massacres of 1.5 million humans. Did Armenian women 'kill muslim Turks' as well? How about the little kids who were starved to death during the genocide? They rebelled against the Ottomans too? How about their old grandparents who died during the death marches to the desert? They killed turkish people as well? Nothing you ever say will justify what happened to Armenians during the genocide of 1915. So take my advice, stop looking for excuses and face the reality. It's about time.

[imported_Hellektor]

Don't plagiarize! Part One

Way to go Tongue!

It's interesting that you and "All your" Turkish "pals" target Tongue when he's had enough of it. He has given up on you. I haven't. Am I too optimistic? I don't know. I spend hours typing and explaining and asking questions that you cunningly avoid and all you can do is to attack Tongue and pretend that you're peaceful, logical, modern citizens of the world.

We have seen enough quotes, many of which were purposefully taken out of context and manipulated, to support your view of the "Armenian sufferings".

Haven't I heard this "out of context" crap regarding some other sensitive issue? Well, it has little to do with this forum, but I had to mention it. I have already said that I'm not much of a quote man; I have already explained that I have my own approach. I view bringing quotes as kind of childish and amateurish in the least. So your "out of context" Turkish weapon doesn't hurt me.

How about the 500,000 or so turks that were subject to "Armenian massacres"? Are your views about the "Turkish sufferings" as crystally clear as the Armenian sufferings?[/I] I doubt they are, so I will cite some nonturks and your fellow Armenians:

I think I'm shouting in the desert because I have pointed out that the Turkish casualties cannot be considered as genocide. I told you that more Germans than Jews died in World War II, but the incomparably greater suffering of the Germans than that of Turks has never been considered for a fraction of a second as genocide. I have also brought to your attention that the numbers game is irrelevant and misleading. Since you are hammering on this so how about this: You didn't kill 1.5 million Armenians but 30 to 40 million, how?
Ever since your barbaric forefathers invaded our homeland they brought nothing but death and destruction. This is what went on for centuries in the Ottoman Tyranny.
I. Stealing boys from their families and forcing them into Islam, bringing them up as ruthless, ferocious killers and sending them back to kill their own, which was a most diabolical genocidal technique known as janissary recruitments.
II. Total disregard for human decency and stealing better looking young women and forcing them into Islam and abusing them in their harems as sex slaves. The most undeniable proof of this is the fact that the majority of Turks today do not look like their Central Asian, Turkmen, Uzbek, Tatar, etc. ancestors and they have acquired Caucasian, Middle Eastern and Mediterranean looks. As a result there's 70 million of you and none of the indigenous peoples living in their homeland (yes, I count the Kurds as well because they too were masters of this despicable practice). This is unquestionably a genocidal act. And if you think I'm exaggerating then I have to tell you that even in this day and age there are still Islamized Armenians living in Western Armenia or in the west, some of whom are returning to their roots. I have personally met such people so don't give me pseudo-intellectual quotations.
III. The unbearable taxes, jizya, haraj, etc. amply recorded by historians, Turkish and otherwise, to run the sick "economy" of the Empire of Plunder, which was yet another reason that led Armenians along with other subjects of the Tyranny to revolt.
IV. The total lack of justice and the humiliation of culturally infinitely superior Armenians by the primitive and backward Turks, which is also well accounted for. So, read any valid history book specially those written in that dark period.

For the n-th time: if you truly believe that 500,000 Turks were killed by Armenians then you're nuts. Although they had all the rights to do whatever they could to get rid of your barbaric rule, desperate times call forth desperate measures. I have already cited the case of the Palestinians that doesn't even compare with your centuries long abuse. None of you condemn the suicide bombings that kill innocent men, women and children. According to your own quote "2,127 Muslim bodies were buried in Erzurum's center. These are entirely men". You know damn well that Armenians were acting in self-defense. The veracity of the figures being dubious and the barbarity of the acts becoming Turks more naturally aside, I see dark intentions in your constant juxtaposition of Armenians and Muslims. In spite of the fact that when your bashi-xxxuks were killing my people, they would cry Gyavour, we have never played the religious card, because Arab Muslims gave shelter to the survivors of the Genocide and we are eternally grateful to them. So, while your government is making love to the filthiest regimes of the world, USA, Britain and Israel, have the decency to avoid the religious issue or at least say Muslim-Christian, not Muslim-Armenian.

"Agitation and terror were needed to elevate the spirit of the people. The party aimed at terrorizing the Ottoman Government, thus contributing toward lowering the prestige of that regime

Prestige? What prestige? What the fokk are you talking about?

...and working toward its complete disintegration.

What is wrong with that?

The Hunchaks wanted to annihilate the most dangerous of the Armenian and Turkish individuals who were then working for the government as well as to destroy all spies and informers.

Although I don't like the Hunchaks, but still, do you see anything wrong with that? Let me sober you up by changing some names in your quote:
The HAMAS wanted to annihilate the most dangerous of the Arab and Israeli individuals who were then working for the (Zionist) government as well as to destroy all spies and informers.

"The Armenians did exterminate the entire Muslim population of Russian Armenia as Muslims were considered inferior to the Armenians by the prominent leaders of the Dashnaks." A fellow Armenian: Mikael Kaprilian, Armenian revolutionary leader, in Yerevan, 1919.

Aren't we entitled to "exterminate" you for a change?

"Since all the Moslems capable of bearing arms were in the Muslim Army,

What do you mean by capable, you mean all the rest were disabled or elderly? All the armed to their teeth Kurdish bandits who weren't in the army (or weren't they?) were not capable of carrying weapons? Where do you find this sort of crap? Do you really buy it or expect us to buy it?

it was easy to organize a terrible massacre by the Armenians against defenseless people, because the Armenians were not only attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well."

Man, you guys are paranoid. I give you this since this is the schitt I always get when your pals don't seem to be capable of bringing logical arguments. According to your numbers game there were merely a million Armenians living in their occupied homeland. Deduce women, children, elderly and the unbelieving subdued hopeless, I don't think you can believe there were more than a couple of tens of thousands of rebels maximum.
And thinking this insignificant number of disorganized "terrorists" were the sole responsible for "attacking the sides and rear of the Eastern Army paralyzed at the front by the Russians, but were attacking the Moslem folk in the region as well" then you either overestimate us or we are some kind of supernatural warriors! Get a life.

If you ask me; you, as a nation, are quite confused... While <i>your Patriarch</i>, Mesrob II, Armenian Patriarch says "Historical questions should be left to historians"; <i>your government</i> refuses to send Armenian historians to examine the Turkish archives, interact, investigate and debate with their Turkish counterparts.

No one is more confused than you are. We are pretty lucid. "<i>our Patriarch</i>, Mesrob II" although quite brave, would not risk utter the word genocide in your fascist state, so if you are not bringing this intentionally then you must be "confused" beyond remedy.

You've been banging on Turkey's door for years to open the border and establish diplomatic relations and you still claim Eastern Anatolia to be part of your homeland.

Give me a fokking break! We cannot care less for "establish(ing) diplomatic relations" with your fascist government. As soon as the border opens, cheap and low quality Turkish goods will ruin the Armenian farmers. YOU have closed the borders. YOU have imposed the unilateral embargo for 12 years and pose as a modern, democratic country who wants to invade the European Union. Armenia has always insisted that they are ready to establish diplomatic relations without conditions but the treacherous Erdogan is demanding Armenia to give up the tiny bit of land we have liberated from your occupation and to give up the activities concerning the recognition of the Armenian Genocide. Dream on...
So, pressurized by the EU your fascist PM is uttering this BS once in a while to "prove" your "good intentions" and accusing Armenians of non-cooperation.
So don't give me this nauseating lie.

You don't mention a single innocent Turk being murdered in Armenian massacres in Eastern Anatolia and yet you claim "the views about the sufferings are crystal clear."

I have said time and again that calling Armenia, Eastern Anatolia is extremely offensive. If you have a grain of decency you will not do this again. If you call Armenia, Eastern Anatolia, then you are a BARBARIC, SAVAGE, NOMADIC MONGOLO-TATAR SUB-HUMAN BEAST. Don't be offended.

[imported_Hellektor]

Don't plagiarize! Part Two

Check these historic maps and convince yourself that:
I. Eastern Anatolia has NEVER existed.
II. A country called Azerbaijan north of the Arax River has NEVER existed before 1918.
III. Armenia has ALWAYS existed, and the ONLY country represented on the first known world map, known as the Babylonian Clay Tablet still existing, is Armenia. We never gave you permission to change the name of our country after your having occupied, pillaged, plundered, raped and razed it to the ground.
By calling our country "Eastern Anatolia", you only confirm that the Genocide did indeed happen.

Babylonian Clay Tablet 600 BC

Babylonian Clay Tablet 600 BC Interpreted

Ptolemy Tabvla nova Asia Minoris 1513

Sebastian Munster Asia Minor 1544

Philippe de La Rue: Asia Minor 1652 (Section)

Frederik de Wit Nova Persiae Armeniae Natoliae et Arabiae 1662

Kiepert: Asian Turkey 1872 (Section)

I'll be adding more maps and pics time permitting.

It seems to me that the Western societies you live in have not yet succeeded in teaching you democracy, freedom of speech and tolerance towards different opinions. I bet the Turks are to blame for that too?

I live in Iran so don't generalize. And "democracy, freedom of speech and tolerance" don't apply to your fascist government and the only way to get out of the vicious circle is to accept the historic facts and get on with your lives.

By the way, you guys are great plagiarizers! After claiming our Urartu ancestors as UralTurks and stealing everything else from us it's little wonder that you are no exception. It's true that I coined the phrase you use in the title from you but do not give it back because it renders you ridiculous. Develop your own sense of sarcasm!

[Tongue]

It's interesting that you and "All your" Turkish "pals" target Tongue when he's had enough of it. He has given up on you. I haven't.

Not that it matters, but I'm actually a girl! haha

Anyway, you should give up too... they'll recognize the genocide when their government does. As you can see, they have no minds of their own, they buy whatever their government sells them... So don't waste your time. What we should do, is raise public awareness about the Armenian genocide. This is the main purpose of this forum as well. Who cares if some stubborn turks are determined to deny it? Sadly, many people here in America never heard of the Armenian genocide. My friend's dating this American guy, on April 24 when we went to the demonstrations, he came along with us. That was the first time he ever heard of the Armenian genocide and this is in Southern California!!! He was surprised at how he never read about it in history classes, well not too surprised after we told him about the lovey dovey relations of US and Turkey. What we need to do is change that, and not just here but around the world... instead of waiting for Turkey to recognize it, we should work on worldwide recognition. And of course, work on our country Armenia and make it the best it can be. We shouldn't even wait for Turkey to open its border. What Turkey wants, is for us to forget the genocide. That's not going to happen; therefore, the border will remain closed. So instead, we should improve our ties with Iran, Georgia, Russia, and the EU. Or at least, that's what I think.

BTW do you currently live in Iran?

[Tongue]

Now this conference in Bosphorus university!! its postponed...yes simply because a group of ppl who were in favour of armenian claims would make it under the name of Bosphorus university.They didnt invite ppl who are in the opposite opinion and thats why this idea is heavliy critised by almost everybody.But they can make any conference ,anytime without inviting the ''others'' BUT they can not make it under the name of BOSPHORUS university.University means science and science means discussion .ıf you dont want other opinions in your''scientific'' conference than the place for it is not a university.Those man who were supposed to join the conference are freely writing,talking on the tv's etc.

Not so fast buddy. None of the professors invited to join the conference were of Armenian descent. They recognize the genocide because there is enough evidence for a rational being to recognize it. So you're basicallly saying, only the people denying the genocide should've been invited? So sad. Turkey once again, freaked out about actually having to discuss the Armenian genocide and cancelled the conference. Horrible move, specially for a country who is so sure of there not being a genocide in its history and claims to be democratic. Cancelling the conference proves a lot!

NOW I M ASKING YOU....WOULD ARMENIAN GOVERNMENT ALLOW EXPERTS MAKE A CONFERENCE IN ERIVAN NAME ''SO CALLED ARMENIAN GENOCIDE??''' ...OR ARMENIAN TV OR PAPERS CAN MAKE ANY INTERWIEW WITH ANY MAN WHO SAYS IT WASNT GENOCIDE BECAUSE OF.......???????

Lets see, you are the one wanting to prove to the world there was no genocide, so you are the one who needs the conference not us. The reason why Turkey decided on this conference was because of the EU's pressure, and as we saw, it got cancelled. Cause it wasn't going to go the way planned. haha

dont teach us democracy!! armenia is 200 year behind from turkey when the subject is democracy....

Ahan sure... can I teach you english instead?

And pls one of you tell us the Hodjalı town!!! tell us about 650 innocent civilian turks killed in the most barbaric ways.Its not that old..just 15 years old..When you say armenian civilisation you mean Hodjalı?????

Amazing how the numbers grow by the day! Wanna discuss khojaly? Sure... Let's start from Sumgait, February 27-28 1988. The exact same day, 4 years prior to Khojali. Lets start from there and move down, shall we?