Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[1.5 million]

Sorry Mustapha Offendi - none of the above accounts can be believed (aplying the very same rational as you and your do to the many thousands of like and greater tales of Trukish depravities against the Armenians). Therewas an active campaign to produce false testimony even beginning in 1915 by B Shakir of the Special Organization - who in fact was charged by the Ottoman 3rd Army of commiting these very same abuses in these very same areas at this very same time - funny that...and to defend himself he came up with these so-called eyewitness testimonies to implicate Armenians. Well we don't buy it and neither does the rest of the world. Considering the well known and very well corroborated accounts to the contrary I would say that pomulgating this sort of shameless deception makes you look rather desperate and silly. I suggest you just give it up and acknowledge the very great and greatly documented crimes against the Armenians that were commited on orders from the CUP and take a minute to reflect on the fates of the great numbers of entirely innocent Armenians (women, children, old etc) who were mercillescly slaughterd by your SS Special Organization and whose anscestors now are entirely absent from thier ancestral homelands in Anatolia where they lived and prospered for thousands of years. Of course I know that you will not listen to reason - however your so-called counter arguments are entirely bankrupt and in fact I can produce accounts form Nazis blaming the Jews of Warsaw and Lodz for all kinds of barbaric acts as well as numerous accounts of the savagry of native Americans in defense of their lands - but who is going to blame them in place of the true criminals whose actions and motives are well known and documented. Think about it. Try to be human.

[1.5 million]

Evidence of Turkish humanity

Genocide... By Ahmet Altan May 9, 2005 http://www.gazetem.net/ahmetaltan.asp Translated by the Zoryan Institute

I would like to ask a very simple, ordinary question.

Would you wish to be an Armenian in 1915?

No, you wouldn't.

Because now you know you would have been killed.

Please stop arguing about the number of murdered or the denials or the attempts to replace pain with statistics.

No one is denying that Armenians were murdered, right?

It may be 300,000, or 500,000, or 1.5 million.

I don't know which number is the truth, or whether anyone knows the true number accurately.

What I do know is the existence of the death and pain beyond these numbers.

I am also aware how we forget that we are talking about human beings when we are passionately debating the numbers.

Those numbers cannot describe the murdered babies, women, the elderly, the teenage boys and girls.

If we leave the numbers aside, and if we allow ourselves to hear the story of only one of these murders, I am sure that even those of us who get enraged when they hear the words "Armenian Genocide" will feel the pain, will have tears in their eyes.

Because they will realize that we are talking about human beings.

When we hear about a baby pulled from a mother's hands to be dashed on the rocks, or a youth shot to death beside a hill, or an old woman throttled by her slender neck, even the hard-hearted among us will be ashamed to say, "Yes, but these people killed the Turks."

Most of these people did not kill anyone.

These people became the innocent victims of a crazed government powered by murder, pitiless but also totally incompetent in governing.

This bloody insanity was a barbarism, not something for us to take pride in or be part of.

This was a slaughter that we should be ashamed of, and, if possible, something that we can sympathize with and share the pain.

I understand that the word "genocide" has a damningly critical meaning, based on the relentless insistence of the Armenians' "Accept the Genocide" argument, or the Turks' "No, it was not a genocide" counterargument, even though the Turks accept the death of hundreds of thousands of Armenians.

And yet, this word is not that important for me, even though it has significance in politics and diplomacy.

What is more important for me is the fact that many innocent people were killed so barbarically.

When I see the shadow of this bloody event on the present world, I see a greater injustice done to the Armenians.

Our crime today is not to allow the present Armenians even to grieve for their cruelly killed relatives and parents.

Which Armenian living in Turkey today can openly grieve and commemorate a murdered grandmother, grandfather or uncle?

I have nothing in common with the terrible sin of the past Ittihadists, but the sin of not allowing grief for the dead belongs to all of us today.

Do you really want to commit this sin?

Is there anyone among us who would not shed tears for a family attacked at home in the middle of the night, or for a little girl left all alone in the desert during the nightmare called "deportation," or for a white-bearded grandfather shot?

Whether you call it genocide or not, hundreds of thousands of human beings were murdered.

Hundreds of thousands of lives snuffed out.

The fact that some Armenian gangs murdered some Turks cannot be an excuse to mask the truth that hundreds of thousands of Armenians were murdered.

A human being of conscience is capable of grieving for the Armenians, as well as the Turks, as well as the Kurds.

We all should.

Babies died; women and old people died.

They died in pain, tormented, terrified.

Is it really so important what religion or race these murdered people had?

Even in these terrifying times there were Turks who risked their lives trying to rescue Armenian children.

We are the children of these rescuers, as well as the children of the murderers.

Instead of justifying and arguing on behalf of the murderers, why don't we praise and defend the rescuers' compassion, honesty, and courage?

There are no more victims left to be rescued today, but there is a grief, a pain, to be shared and supported.

What's the use of a bloody, warmongering dance around a deep pain?

Forget the numbers, forget the Armenians, forget the Turks, just think of the babies, teenagers, and old people with necks broken, bellies slashed, bodies mutilated. Think about these people, one by one.

If nothing moves in you when you hear a baby wail as her mother is murdered, I have nothing to say to you.

Then add my name to the list of "traitors."

Because I am ready to share the grief and pain with the Armenians.

Because I still believe there is something yet to be rescued from all these meaningless and pitiless arguments, and that something is called "humanity."





Soykirim...

Çok basit ve siradan bir soru sormak istiyorum.

1915 yilinda bir Ermeni olmak ister miydiniz?

Istemezdiniz.

Çünkü öldürüleceginizi biliyorsunuz simdi.

Öldürülenlerin kaç kisi oldugunu iddialarla ve inkarlarla tartisip, yasanan bütün acilari rakamlara indirgemeyi bir yana birakin.

Ermenilerin öldürüldügünü reddeden kimse yok, degil mi?

Üç yüz bin kisi, bes yüz bin kisi, bir milyon kisi ya da bir buçuk milyon kisi.

Rakamlarin hangisinin tam gerçegi gösterdigini bilmiyorum, kesin rakami bilen biri var mi ondan da emin degilim.

Bildigim, bu rakamlarin arkasinda insanlarin, ölümlerin ve acilarin oldugu.

Rakamlari sehvetle tartisirken aslinda insanlardan bahsetmekte oldugumuzu unuttugumuzun farkindayim yalnizca.

O rakamlar öldürülen bebekleri, kadinlari, yaslilari, delikanlilari, genç kizlari anlatmiyor bize.

Eger bu büyük rakamlari bir kenara birakip öldürülen insanlardan yalnizca bir tanesini

n hikayesinin bize anlatilmasina izin versek, bugün "Ermeni soykirimi" lafini duyunca öfkeden çildiranlarin bile içlerinin aciyacagina, gözlerinin yasaracagina eminim.

Çünkü o zaman insanlardan söz edilmekte oldugunu farkedecekler.

Annesinin kucagindan kopartilip taslara çarpilarak öldürülen bir bebegi, bir dagin yamacinda kursuna dizilen delikanliyi, ince boynu sikilarak bogulan bir yasli kadini bize anlattiklarinda "onlar da Türkleri öldürmüslerdi" demekten en tas kalplilerimiz bile utanir.

Onlarin çogu kimseyi öldürmemisti.

Iktidarlarini cinayetlere yaslamis, insafsiz oldugu kadar beceriksiz bir yönetimin tutuldugu bir cinnetin kurbani oldular onlar.

Bu kanli cinnet ne övünebilecegimiz ne paylasabilecegimiz bir vahset.

Bu, utanacagimiz ve mümkünse acisini paylasacagimiz bir katliam.

Ermenilerin, atalarinin yasadigi dramlari bile neredeyse bir kenara birakarak "soykirim oldugunu kabul edin" diye tutturmalarindan, Türklerin de yüz binlerce insanin ölümünü kabul ederken bile "hayir, asla soykirim degildi" diye diretmesinden bu "soykirim" sözcügünün lanetli bir önemi oldugunu seziyorum.

Ama gene de, bu sözcük politikada ve diplomaside nasil bir önem tasirsa tasisin benim için büyük bir önem tasimiyor.

Masum insanlarin vahsice öldürülmüs oldugu gerçegi, bu gerçegin adindan daha önemli benim için.

Bu büyük dramin günümüze düsen gölgesine baktigimda ise Ermenilere yapilan bir baska büyük haksizligi görüyorum.

Yakinlarini zalimce cinayetlere kurban vermis olanlarin bugün bu aci için yas tutmalarina izin vermemek bizim suçumuz.

Bugün Türkiye'de hangi Ermeni öldürülen büyükannesi, dedesi, amcasi için açikça yas tutabilir?

Ittihatçilarin isledigi korkunç günahla bir ortakligim yok ama yas tutmalarina bile izin verilmemesinin günahi bugün hepimize ait.

Bu günahi islemek istiyor musunuz gerçekten?

Aranizda bir geceyarisi evi basilan bir ailenin öldürülmesine, annesini kaybeden küçük bir çocugun tehcir denilen o mahserde yapayalniz kalmasina, ak sakalli bir Ermeni dedesinin vurulmasina göz yasi dökmeyecek kimse var mi?

Adina ister soykirim deyin ister demeyin, yüz binlerce insan öldürüldü.

Yüz binlerce hayat söndü.

Ermeni çetelerin de Türkleri öldürmüs olmasi Ermenilerin öldürülmüs oldugu gerçegini gözlerden saklayacak bir mazeret olmamali bence.

Insan vicdani öldürülen herkes için, Ermeniler için, Türkler için, Kürtler için yas tutabilir.

Bana sorarsaniz tutmalidir da.

Bebekler öldü, kadinlar, yaslilar öldü.

Aci çekerek, aglayarak, dehsete düserek öldüler.

Öldürülenlerin irklari ve dinleri gerçekten o kadar önemli mi sizin için?

O korkunç zamanlarda bile Ermeni çocuklarini kurtarmaya çalisan, bunun için kendi hayatini tehlikeye atan Türkler vardi.

Biz, öldürenlerin çocuklari oldugumuz kadar kurtarmaya çalisanlarin da çocuklariyiz.

Öldürenlerin vahsetine sahip çikmak yerine kurtaranlarin merhametine, dürüstlügüne, cesaretine neden sahip çikmayalim?

Bugün kurtarilacak kurbanlar yok ama kurtarilacak, sahip çikilacak, desteklenecek bir yas var.

Agir bir yasin çevresinde kanli bir totem dansina dalmanin nasil bir yarari olacagini düsünüyorsunuz?

Rakamlari unutun, Ermenileri unutun, Türkleri unutun, boyunlari kirilan, karinlari desilen, vücutlari parçalanan bebekleri, gençleri, kadinlari yaslilari düsünün yalnizca.

Bütün o insanlari tek tek düsünün.

Içinizde en küçük bir kipirti bile olmuyorsa, annesi öldürülürken aglayan bir bebegi düsündügünüzde gözünüzde bir dirhem gözyasi belirmiyorsa, size söylenecek bir sözüm yok.

O zaman benim adimi "hainlerin" arasina yazin.

Çünkü ben öldürülen onca insanin yasini Ermenilerle birlikte tutmaya hazirim.

Bütün bu acimasiz ve anlamsiz tartismalarin ortasinda hala kurtarilacak bir sey olduguna ve ona da "insanlik" dendigine inaniyorum çünkü.

9 Mayis 2005, Pazartesi

[imported_Hellektor]

The Numbers Game and the Same “Tolerance” Lies Again Part One

Alright, I tried not to heed this Bugra but with every post he/she/it exposes his/her/its true genocidal wolfish colors more brightly (blatantly) and I’ve had enough. We’ve already heard all your McFartyesque garbage time and again. If you have a new thing to say or you can bring yourself to express something worthy of being considered as civilized human behavior like remorse, guilt or shame then you’re welcome otherwise get out.
Your favorite Turkish “Numbers Game” has been regurgitated ad nauseam and it’s sickening and I’ve got to the point I cannot take your crap any longer.
I claim FORTY MILLION Armenians have been killed by the Turks.
Ever since their earliest grandpaws set hoof in our home they have been killing us and forcing us into their barbaric customs. Just read these excerpts from someone who was there a thousand years ago and saw it with his own eyes.
“Yet [the Saljuqs] totally stripped and pillaged whatever we had, even though we had done nothing to them…they mercilessly threw the corpses of many people to the carnivorous beasts…Mercilessly setting fire to the homes and churches wherein refugees had fled, [the Saljuqs] burned them down, considering this a benevolent act...Such is your wicked history, oh city, blessed and venerable, full [of good things], renowned among the lands. Raise now your eyes and observe your children led into slavery, your babies hurled mercilessly against rocks, your young people burned by fire, the respect-worthy and glorious elderly folk fallen in the squares, your fresh and prosperous virgins and women fallen in disgrace, led away into slavery on foot... We have written only about what we saw with our own eyes, and about the wicked things we ourselves experienced.”

…children were ravished from the embraces of their mothers and mercilessly hurled against rocks .

1) Most of the Armenians(in Ottoman times) were either traders, craftsman, masonary, or musicians(a common understanding of Armenians in Turkey)

Wrong, there were TWO distinct groups of Armenians under the Ottoman Tyranny: The handful of “luckier” ones, the bourgeois so to speak, who literally built the Ottoman “empire”, who lived in Constantinople, and the 90%plus unfortunates who lived in Armenia proper and were called the reaya, the peasants, who also bore the brunt of all the calamities that befell them during that dark era.

2) From a friend who is older than me studied History at Marmara University(he is religous and nationalist): "Armenians were called as nation of loyalty during Ottoman times"

“studied” revised “History!!!” Yes, in fact they were called Milleti Sedigheh (sedika if you like) the Truthful Nation, sedigh in Arabic coming from sedgh meaning truth. In fact Armenians are known to be truthful throughout the Muslim world including Iran. This is because it’s OK for the Muslims to lie in certain circumstances and they call it “necessary lying”. Armenians on the other hand don’t lie. I have heard this countless times from Muslims here in Iran that Armenians are trustworthy. Whatever they manufacture or build is done with utmost care and conscience.
That’s why they were called the Milleti Sedigheh. But you wanted them to bend their necks to your scimitars whenever it was convenient for you. You also used to use this culturally superior people compared to your barbaric nomadic bunch, as rugs. Your “dignitaries” had the right to walk over them as they pleased. And that for a thousand years.

3) From another friend same university and same department: "Armenians were calm people, they just dealt with daily routine things, you wouldnt distinguish an Armenian from a Turk in Ottoman times"

Wrong, they physically may not have been distinguishable from the Turks because of centuries long rape and stealing of their women who were used and abused in the harems of your insatiable savage grandpaws, and the yearly “recruitment” of healthier boys of the Christian families for the diabolically devised janissary upbringing. Don’t you see how your Mongoloid features have changed? Don’t you ever wonder how come in so short a time you lost your Central Asian features and look like the indigenous Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, Arabs, etc.?
I said “wrong” in the beginning of the paragraph because to humiliate the non Muslims, as early as 1588 Armenian men among other minorities, had to wear black head coverings. According to Ricaut this gave the Muslims the assurance who they could treat cruelly without the fear of being prosecuted by the law. Because a Christian attacked by a Turk didn’t have the right to defend themselves, the only way out was escape. Otherwise they had to let themselves be abused and humiliated without being allowed to hit back (M. Febvre, L’état présent de la Turquie oů il est traité des vies mśurs et coutumes des Ottomans et autres peuples de leur Empire, p.152, Paris 1675). So much for their calmness, read infinite patience.
To avoid this danger that was permanently hanging above their heads, some reaya would clothe themselves differently but even in 1757 this didn’t escape the attention of the rulers. According to Vasif, “The Greek, Armenian and Jewish subjects had trespassed the sharia with their clothing. Therefore, the Greek and Armenian patriarchs and the Jewish religious leaders were summoned to the head officer (Aga) in Istanbul to be reminded of the dress code commanded by the padishah, they were also warned if these obligations weren’t observed immediately the offenders would be severely punished” (Tarihi Vasif). Of course they don’t teach this at your “universities” or better said brain damage centers. So much for the “Turks and Armenians lived in peace and harmony for centuries” and the whole “Ottoman “tolerance”” rubbish.

6) From my friends who are from Erzurum or Van: "Armenians tortured and massacred our ancestors"

I wish it were true for a change, yet it cannot be. The Turkish barbarity suffered by our people is reflected in all our poems, songs, novels, paintings, dances, etc. If Armenians had done the same, you must also have songs (don’t make one up just now, I mean songs and poems coming from centuries), that reflect this. So how about reciting some for us?

[imported_Hellektor]

The Numbers Game and the Same “Tolerance” Lies Again Part Two

To our main subject “Numbers and more numbers”.

There is certainly a manupulation in numbers. Or I can say inconsistencies.
The inconsistencies that I can see so far…

Have you ever asked yourselves HOW ON EARTH a nation who lived in their home for thousands of years represents less than 0.1% of the population of the country you call Turkey? How on earth there’s 70 million of you (yes I count the Kurds in as well because they also committed the same atrocities against us) and less than 70 thousand of us? If we had committed a genocide against the Turks how come the ratio is thousand to one in favor of the genocidee? Do you really believe that a handful of Armenian rebels had the ability to kill hundreds of thousands of barbarians who were occupying their homeland and had all the rights and protection the Armenians didn’t ever have? COME ON, your brain damage cannot be THAT severe. If it is, as I said in a previous post, had they opened your skulls, taken out your brains, cut it in two and put only one half back in your heads you would still argue more reasonably.
Throughout centuries you have stopped our natural development and population growth. If it wasn’t for a thousand year long genocide, Armenia would have been a prosperous nation counting over forty million now. It would have been a country equally advanced as Switzerland or Japan, but you destroyed everything.
Talking about destruction, the favorite Turkish pastime. Since 1912 over 2000 Armenian churches from the 2200 accounted for in that year have been systematically destroyed. If it was not genocide then why are you doing this? I have raised this several times but none of you has ever responded. Sly foxes (wolves) that you are, you just search for the swear words and quote them to show how smart ass you are. Go on, no holds barred in this message of mine, I’ve really had it.
All your Wikipedic knowledge and the McFartyan ciphers don’t mean xxxx and you know it, so stop this silly numbers game.
Here in Iran, a really fanatical Muslim country, there are 30 thousand mosques for 70 million people. How on earth less than a million Armenians (not so religious people) had 2200 churches? There MUST HAVE BEEN more or less four million Armenians, at least three million, living in their occupied homeland before the Genocide. How mane are there now?
There was NEVER an official census, there were only ESTIMATIONS and the Ottomans always forced the people responsible for the census to reduce the numbers of non-Turks. The numbers of the “minorities” was ALWAYS “deflated” because Turks wanted to show that they were the majority that they weren’t. The whole forced assimilations and rape and janissary “routine” was done for this purpose.
The Turk is a strange species. They are not racist. The color/shape of skin/hair/eyes are irrelevant. Unlike the Holocaust, where the Germans wanted to “purify” Europe of what they considered the inferior race, therefore a “culture” of rape and forced assimilation was out of the question, the Turks (just like the monsters in the Alien movies), wanted/still want to infect every body with their Turkish virus to become the majority.
A Turk by definition is a Muslim who speaks Turkish and has a Turkish/Muslim name and THINKS like a Turk, that’s all. If anybody accepts this their life is spared. Otherwise it’s Genocide baby!
And one thing you deliberately ignore is that the survivors of the Genocide suffered much more that those who died. Because they saw their loved ones killed and mutilated in front of their eyes and they suffered for decades. The last of survivors dying fast, they never saw justice. Because of this injustice the survivors of the Armenian Genocide and their offspring are also its victims who suffered/are suffering the most.
You killed and threw out the entire indigenous population of a country you occupy and destroy, and you say it was not genocide? Several thousands of Turks (mostly men) killed in Bosnia are considered victims of genocide, although it was a vicious war and everybody killed everybody else. How come only because they are your kin it should be considered genocide although reparations have been made and land has been given to them?

If the Tehjir, the forced immigrations had not been taken place, today we wouldnt see Eastern Anatolia as part of Turkey.

GE-NO-CI-DAL MA-NI-AC… You bet, you self-satisfied prig! I said a thousand times the country has a name, it’s called Armenia.
Look at ALL historic documents and maps including those made in the Ottoman Tyranny. Armenia has ALWAYS been called Armenia before the Genocide. This offensive term is part of the Genocide to deny the existence of Armenia.

Babylonian Clay Tablet 600 BC

Babylonian Clay Tablet 600 BC Interpreted

Ptolemy Tabvla nova Asia Minoris 1513

Sebastian Munster Asia Minor 1544

Philippe de La Rue: Asia Minor 1652 (Section)

Frederik de Wit Nova Persiae Armeniae Natoliae et Arabiae 1662

Kiepert: Asian Turkey 1872 (Section)

In the time of the Armenian Genocide, Turks used to bet to see who gets more from the booty they plundered from the victims they had raped. To see who would win, they would bet whether the unborn child of a pregnant Armenian woman was boy or girl. Then they would cut her to see who wins. Since I’m an Armenian and I don’t like this sort of savagery, let’s just bet accordingly:
You show me a historic map or a historic document done before the 20th century, where Armenia is called “Eastern Anatolia”. If you can produce ONE such document/map then xxxx ME, if you can come up with NONE then xxxx YOU and all the members of your species who call Armenia “Eastern Anatolia”.
And of course you have to get the phuk out of my home you rapist thief.
Turks don’t belong in the Caucasus.
Turks don’t belong in the Middle-East
Turks don’t belong in Asia Minor
Turks don’t belong in the Mediterranean region
Turks don’t belong in Europe
Turks belong in the steppes of Central Asia. That’s where you come from and that’s where you belong.
It’s only that the US of A is on their knees sucking you and pouring hundreds of billions of dollar$ down the bottomless throat of the Sick Man of Europe. It’s just a matter of time. When this Zionist/Anglo-Saxon Turkish phallus worship comes to an end, we’ll kick your Tatar asses back to Mongolia. Count on it. IT’S OUR HOME YOU ARE OCCUPYING PUT IT IN YOUR DAMAGED MONGOL BRAIN.

Where’s your sense of justice, or have you one?
The chimpanzee’s genetic make up is for 98.8% the same as that of human beings. I sincerely think that somewhere down the line, in the course of human evolution, the Turks missed the train and didn’t develop all the attributes the modern human beings have acquired.
Among others these are:
Remorse, guilt, shame, compassion, sympathy for the suffering of others, honesty, modesty, sincerity, truthfulness, objectivity, self-criticism…the list is incomplete.
Reading the posts in this forum, justifying the Armenian Genocide, denying it despite the mountain of evidence, self-righteousness of the writers in demanding total subjugation from their “subjects”, arrogantly demanding apology for a handful of self defensive actions, never for a minute seeing the fact that the Turks are the INVADERS, they are COMERS, they were UNINVITED, the culturally superior indigenous peoples of the region LOATHED them from the beginning, they DIDN’T WANT THEIR RULE, they CURSED and DAMNED them forever for stealing their children, mercilessly hurling their helpless babies against rocks…I cannot help but conclude that the Turks are 99.8% human beings. The missing 0.2% is sufficient to account for their incurable barbarity and self-righteousness.

Add projection to the list of Turkish mental deficiencies:

I do not think this kind of people are interested in any kind of dialogue.
They live the history that they have written, they do not have the empathy to udnerstand others.

This kind of people jsut try to rewrite history.

Indeed.

[imported_Hellektor]

Brain Made of Cement...

I dont think Turks asks you where they belong or not.

I don't think we invited you to invade our home and kill us and use us and abuse us and hurl our babies against rocks and rape our women and steal our children and enslave our people and steal our homeland and destroy our monuments for a THOUSAND YEARS. And you don't belong in my home you belong in the steppes of Central Asia. That's where you come from.

So Where do you belong? If Armenia why dont you live in Armenia instead live in USA? Cheap thoughts.

You don't even read ONE of my posts and you allow yourself to assume where I live. I live in Iran I have said it a MILLION times.
I paste from one of my previous posts:
"My own ancestors were forcefully migrated to Iran by Shah Abbas (himself of Turkish origin) in 1604, who was fighting against your ancestors. He burned the entire region to cut the supply routes thus, the advance of the Ottomans.
It's believed that out of two to three hundred thousand Armenians forcefully relocated, about half died, mostly drowning in the Arax River. However we have forgotten the dark days and since Shah Abbas settled us in an area near Isfahan and let us build a new city that the Armenians called Nor Jugha (New Julfa) in memory of their home, the Armenians flourished and were a respected minority.
Contrary to what happened in Turkey, Armenians in Iran were almost never subject to harsh treatment and even in this closed theocratic regime, we still enjoy lots of mutual respect towards each other."

If you go back you will find all humans are decendants of Adam and Eve.

I don't believe in god, because the existence of the Turk precludes the existence of god.
If god existed he/she/it wouldn't have, couldn't have, shouldn't have created the Turk. Turk and god are therefore mutually exclusive. And I don't believe in Jewish mythology either, however, I believe, since it's according to your own customs as well, your ancestors don't go back to Adam and Eve but to the Gray Wolf. In my previous post I explained that Turks are 99.8% human beings. It's a shame you didn't read it.

Some Armenians , and I hope they are just a few, still think that occupying eastern Anatolia their birth given rights.

????????????????????? Bad English. I don't get what you mean. All Armenians who know their history, also KNOW that "eastern Anatolia" is BULLxxxx and I asked you to show me a historic document where Armenia is called "eastern Anatolia". I said and I paste it again:
"You show me a historic map or a historic document done before the 20th century, where Armenia is called “Eastern Anatolia”. If you can produce ONE such document/map then xxxx ME, if you can come up with NONE then xxxx YOU and all the members of your species who call Armenia “Eastern Anatolia”."

WHy dont you brave to accept the fact that your foolish fasistic Tashnak leaders betrayed and led your ancestors to the disastor of supporting Russian army and French army?

Your "bravery" is that you first recruit the young men and execute them, then drive the women, children and elderly to the desert to roast.
Your "bravery" is that of Ramil Safarov who savagely mutilated his Armenian classmate in his sleep and is hailed as a hero in his bogus “country”.
Your "bravery" is reflected in the Sumgait massacres, dragging people out of their homes and burning them, throwing babies out of the window from several stories buildings...
And my "foolish fasistic Tashnak leaders" were those who saved this little, tiny, craggy, rocky, landlocked piece of land from the paws of your barbaric ancestors. So they are a thorn in your eyes and a trunk in your Mongol fascist ass. DON'T DARE OFFEND THE GREAT DASHNAKTSOUTIOUN.
AND HOW DARE YOU OCCUPY MY HOME AND CALL THE SELF-DEFENSE ACTS OF ARMENIANS AS "betrayal to Ottomans". You really piss me off. WHO THE xxxx DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? Don't you read when I say:
"the Turks are the INVADERS, they are COMERS, they were UNINVITED, the culturally superior indigenous peoples of the region LOATHED them from the beginning, they DIDN’T WANT THEIR RULE, they CURSED and DAMNED them forever for stealing their children, mercilessly hurling their helpless babies against rocks…" WE DIDN'T WANT YOUR xxxxING RULE, YOU BARBARIAN!
And for the record: The Czarist and the Bolshevik Russia were both the fierce enemies of the Dashnaks. Armenians themselves prepared the uprising. PUT THIS IN YOUR MONGOL BRAIN.

Why dont you accept that by their betrayal to Ottomans is the betrayal of 9 centuries of friendship among Turks and Armenians??

You really are a blockhead! Why don't you ever read my posts where I say the whole "centuries of friendship among Turks and Armenians" is pure bullxxxx?
Here once again although you won't read it:
I. "to humiliate the non Muslims, as early as 1588 Armenian men among other minorities, had to wear black head coverings. According to Ricaut this gave the Muslims the assurance who they could treat cruelly without the fear of being prosecuted by the law. Because a Christian attacked by a Turk didn’t have the right to defend themselves, the only way out was escape. Otherwise they had to let themselves be abused and humiliated without being allowed to hit back (M. Febvre, L’état présent de la Turquie oů il est traité des vies mśurs et coutumes des Ottomans et autres peuples de leur Empire, p.152, Paris 1675).
To avoid this danger that was permanently hanging above their heads, some reaya would clothe themselves differently but even in 1757 this didn’t escape the attention of the rulers. According to Vasif, “The Greek, Armenian and Jewish subjects had trespassed the sharia with their clothing. Therefore, the Greek and Armenian patriarchs and the Jewish religious leaders were summoned to the head officer (Aga) in Istanbul to be reminded of the dress code commanded by the padishah, they were also warned if these obligations weren’t observed immediately the offenders would be severely punished” (Tarihi Vasif)"

II."In his "Risale" (report) presented to sultan Murad IV in 1631-1632, among others Koçi Bey writes:
"In the beginning 40 to 50 akce was imposed on each household as "avaris". Today 240 akce per capita as "cizye", another 300 per household as "avaris" and an akce for every sheep as sheep tax is being imposed...How can the "raya" tolerate such oppression..."
"Devsirme", the collecting and conversion of Christians, mainly for janissary purposes, that went on from 15th to 17th centuries, expressed itself as legitimized oppression. According to Selaniki the Turkish annals writer: "The rulers of the time were ruthless in recruiting children... Like wolves attacking sheep, they mercilessly assaulted the "raya" in the land.""

III. "According to Mevlüt xxxdemir (Türk Ordusunun Tarihsel Kökenleri p.12, Ankara 1982.) And I translate from a different language:
“All natural sciences emphasize the underdevelopment of the nomadic peoples. Their presence in cultural, artistic and intellectual areas is almost zilch. This is because the lifestyle of these peoples is not suited to develop such skills. It is almost unthinkable that people who are warring for an existence, can bother to spend time for other things. That’s why the economic component of war must be heavily stressed in the case of the Turks. The productivity of the nomads was insufficient to guarantee a necessary and secure living standard. This observation reveals that the productivity of the people fell far beneath the minimum level of demand. In order to stay alive, they needed supplementary income. To cover these needs war played an essential role.”"

If you had not betrayed us and collaborated with outside occupier powers in early 1900s and be on our side against the occupiers and imperialists, today you would live in Turkey instead of living in California.

Get a life. WE LOATHED YOU, WE HATED YOUR RULE, WE WANTED/WANT YOU OUT OF OUR HOME, WHY DON'T YOU GET IT? And your momma lives in California you self-satisfied, self-righteous, priggish idiot.

Your fasistic and stupid leaders made a mistake and obviously you still support their foolishness, and go on fooling yourselves with the Dashnak dreams of 1915.

Stupid are YOU. Your lobotomized cement block of a brain doesn't get it and you repeat the same xxxx in every sentence.

If you go on with these policies you will be the losers, despite what you do Turkey will go on its way. It is your choice for Armenia not to prevent and improve.

Oil wells will dry up someday. The American Empire will collapse and there will be no one to suck Turkey anymore. That's when we'll kick your Tatar asses back to Mongolia, even if it's in a thousand years from now...

I feel pity for loser Tashnak Armenians of USA.

Pity is an attribute that has yet to be acquired by the Turks.

They dont live in Armenia but still dare to speak on their behalf. They dont live the misery in Armenia, and speak as if they are living it. They push Armenia not to reform itself, they prevent it not to prosper, but still dare to speak in their behalf.

You know NOTHING of Armenia and Armenians. YOU have imposed a unilateral blockade and it’s YOU who have prevented Armenia from developing for a thousand years. You only regurgitate with your ass, what they put in your block of a brain since childhood.

Turkey is changing and you will see pretty much improved relations with the ordinary Armenian in Armenia and ordinary Armenian who is a diaspora. In near future they will be spitting on your face because of your frozen Tashnak brains.

They will xxxx in your face for spewing such vomit. Eat your stinking vomit and die.

[imported_Hellektor]

Brain Made of xxxx...

THis person is really stupid he is obviously confused.

A more stupid piece of xxxx for brains than you has never existed.

Show me a map that shows eastern anatolia and caucusia has a state ever named Armenia. We take those lands from Byzantine, by the help of Armenian volunteers in 1071. You are stupid you dont know a bit about your own history.

I have pasted several links to maps from the beginning of cartography to the nineteenth century. I will post more later when I find others and I find the time. Seems you're either:
I. Blind
II. Illiterate
III. Stupid
IV. Blinded by self-righteousness
V. Pathological liar
that you don't see Armenia on these maps.

Here the links for the millionth time:
Check these historic maps and convince yourself that:
I. Eastern Anatolia has NEVER existed.
II. A country called Azerbaijan north of the Arax River has NEVER existed before 1918.
III. Armenia has ALWAYS existed, and the ONLY country represented on the first known world map, the Babylonian Clay Tablet still existing, is Armenia.

Babylonian Clay Tablet 600 BC

Babylonian Clay Tablet 600 BC Interpreted

Ptolemy Tabvla nova Asia Minoris 1513

Sebastian Munster Asia Minor 1544

Philippe de La Rue: Asia Minor 1652 (Section)

Frederik de Wit Nova Persiae Armeniae Natoliae et Arabiae 1662

Kiepert: Asian Turkey 1872 (Section)

Tell me an Armenian country, or an Armenian state in the last 2000 years, I do not talk about a small kingdoms which lasted a few decades. Just show me once.

The next post lists the Kings of Armenia.
After reading it I advise you to:
I. Eat your heart out
II. Eat xxxx and die

You are talking about Ottoman Tyranny
1) Ottomans are the first who recognized Armenians as under one official Church and made them for the first time in history as an official entity in a state(15th century).
Armenian church named as the representative of Armenian nation, which has ne ver officially taken place before

WHO THE xxxx DO YOU THINK YOU ARE? YOU ARE THE INVADING, NOMADIC, BARBARIC SAVAGES WHO RAIDED MY HOME UNINVITED. Who gives you the right to recognize or not to recognize the 1700 year old Armenian Church? Whose state, you pillaging, plundering, rape crazy, babies against rocks hurling, bandit beasts.

2) Armenians had lots of beurocrats, parliment members even ministers in Ottoman State.
Just show me one example, ONE EXAMPLE in history of west that a minority nation had been given so much representation and respect.

Your barbaric, illiterate, nomadic grandpaws NEEDED the Armenians to run their country.
Ermeni ustanin elinden geçmeyen caminin minaresi ayakta kalmaz, yikilir.
It’s from ‘Ermeni Sorunu’ by T. Ates in ‘Yol’ No. 22-24, p.38, Duisburg, 1982.

When they didn't need them anymore, they exterminated them.
For a start I suggest you read a research by Sholeh Perinçek where she says:
"The first western style Theatrical performances (in Turkey) were staged in the Armenian schools...
The first actress in Turkey was Arousiak Papazian.
The first musical organization, the Eastern Musical Company, was founded by Tigran Choukhajian who also wrote the first Turkish operetta.
The first orchestra in Istanbul was founded by Grigor Sinanian whose brother Haroutiuon Sinanian wrote the anthem for the Young Turks (how ironic...).
The first sculptor in Turkey is Yervand Oskan.
Edgar Manas, who arranged the "Hymn for independence" for the Turkish Republic founded the first female choir in Turkey.
Marie Louise, the daughter of Bogos Garagash who opened the first florist in Istanbul, is the first female Opera singer in Turkey.
Petros Kerestejian prepared the first (and the only) Turkish etymological dictionary. He translated Karl Marx's Manifesto in Turkish, in1847.
The first Turkish satirical monthly was published in 1852 by Hovsep Vardanian.
The first printing house in Izmir (Smyrna) was founded in 1759 by an Armenian named Markos.
The feminist movement in Turkey was pioneered be Haikanoush Mark.
Marie Pishmishian is the first female mathematician in Turkey.
The first female fighter plane pilot in the world was Ataturk's adopted daughter Sabiha Gökçe".
About 40% of the export, 60% of the import and 80% of the "empire"'s commerce were run by Armenians.
And Sinan literally built the 16th century Ottoman. There are 360 mosques, schools, bridges, hospitals... attributed to him.
The list is endless and this is just the tip of the iceberg that your grandfathers turned into a mountain of skulls. Turkish gratitude one may say.

I am just wasting my time this kind of losers, history is history learn it if you like, but if you like to listen Dashnak stories and listen their Fasist slogans and shape your mind with those, what can I do? Go ahead and ruin yourself.

You're a sore loser and you just don't know it. And I agree with you that you are wasting your time, so why don't you shut the f**k up, get the f**k out and eat s**t and die for a change?

----------------

bet, you self-satisfied prig! I said a thousand times the country has a name, it’s called Armenia.
Look at ALL historic documents and maps including those made in the Ottoman Tyranny. Armenia has ALWAYS been called Armenia before the Genocide. This offensive term is part of the Genocide to deny the existence of Armenia.

So it seems you lost the bet so F**k YOU.

[imported_Hellektor]

Kings of Armenia for the xxxx for Brains Bugra

Below you can see the rulers of Armenia:
WARNING: take care not to explode from envy!

Rulers of Armenia up to 1375

Kings of Urartu
ARAMU the first known king of Urartu (in modern Armenia).
SARDURIS I
ISHPUINIS 825-810 BC.
MENUAS 810-785 BC.
ARGISHTIS I 785
SARDURIS II 763
RUSAS I 734
ARGISHTIS II 714
RUSAS II 685
SARDURIS III 645
ERIMENAS 635-629 BC
SARDURIS IV 629

Ervandian or Orontid Dynasty in Armenia

ERVAND (ORONTES) I, c. 401-c. 344 B.C.
ERVAND (ORONTES) II, c. 344-331
MITHRANES, 331-before 317
ERVAND (ORONTES) III, before 317-c. 260
SAMUS, c. 260
XERXES, after 228-c. 212
ERVAND (ORONTES) IV, c. 212-c. 200

Artashesian or Artaxiad Dynasty

ARTASHES (ARTAXIAS) I, 188-c. 165?
ARTAWAZD (ARTAVAZD) I
TIGRAN (TIGRANES) I
TIGRAN (TIGRANES) II, 95-55
ARTAWAZD (ARTAVAZD) II, 55-34
ALEXANDER HELIOS. Not member of dynasty
ARTASHES II, c. 30-20
TIGRAN (TIGRANES) III, 20-8/6
TIGRAN (TIGRANES) IV, 8-5
ARTAWAZD (ARTAVAZD) III, 5-2
TIGRAN (TIGRANES) IV and ERATO, 2 B.C.-A.D. 1?
ARIOBARZANES, A.D. 2-4. Not member of dynasty
ARTAWAZD (ARTAVAZD) IV, 4-6
TIGRAN (TIGRANES) V and ERATO, c. 6-14

Arsacids in Armenia

VONONES, 12-c.15
ORODES, c.15-c.18
ZENO/ARTASHES OF PONTUS, c.18-34. Not member of dynasty
ARSHAK I, 34-c.35
MITHRIDATES OF IBERIA, c.35-37, 42-51. Not member of dynasty
RHADAMISTES OF IBERIA, 51-54? Not member of dynasty
TRDAT (TIRIDATES) I, 53-c.60
TIGRAN (TIGRANES) VI, c.60-c.61/62. Not member of dynasty
TRDAT (TIRIDATES) I, c.62/66-c.75
SANATRUK, 75-110?
AXIDARES, 110-113?
PARTHAMASIRIS, 113-115?
VAGHARSH (VOLOGASES) I, 117-138/140
AURELIUS PACORUS, 161-163?
SOHAEMUS, 164-185, with interruptions. Not member of dynasty
VAGHARSH (VOLOGASES) II, c.180-191
XOSROV I, c.191-216/217?
TRDAT (TIRIDATES) II, c.216/217-252
HORMIZD-ARDASHIR, Sasanian, 252-c.272. Not member of dynasty
NARSEH, Sasanian, c.273-293. Not member of dynasty
XOSROV II, 279/280-287
TRDAT (TIRIDATES) III, 287-298
TRDAT (TIRIDATES) IV, the Great, 298/99-c.330
XOSROV III Kotak, c.330-338
TIRAN, c.338/39-350
ARSHAK II, 350-c.364/367
PAP, 367-c.374
VARAZDAT, 374-378
ARSHAK III AND VAGHARSHAK, Pap's sons. c.378-c.389
XOSROV IV, in Eastern Armenia. 384-389
VRAMSHAPUH, replacing brother XOSROV IV, 389/401-417
XOSROV IV, 417-418
SHAPUH, Sasanian. Son of shah Yazdgird I, 418-422. Not member of dynasty
ARTASHES/ARDASHIR, SON OF VRAMSHAPUH, 422-428

Marzpans

VASAK I OF SIWNIK' C. 442-451
[SAHAK II BAGRATUNI, INSURGENT MARZPAN] 482-483
VAHAN MAMIKONEAN, AUTONOMOUS MARZPAN 485-505/510
VARD MAMIKONEAN, AUTONOMOUS MARZPAN 505/10-509/514
MZHEZH (MEZEZIUS) I GNUNI 518-548
PHILIP SIWNI 574-576
MUSHEGH II MAMIKONEAN 591 ?
VARAZ-TIROTS' II BAGRATUNI 628 - AFTER 631

Presiding Princes of Armenia

MZHEZH (MEZEZIUS) II GNUNI, COMMANDER-IN-CHIEF OF THE IMPERIAL TROOPS, 628-635
DAVID SAHARHUNI, CUROPALATE 635-638
THEODORE RHSHTUNI, HIGH CONSTABLE AND PATRICIAN, 638-C.645
VARAZ-TIROTS' II BAGRATUNI, CUROPALATE, 645
THEODORE RHSHTUNI, HIGH CONSTABLE
for the Emperor, 645-653
for the Caliph, 653/4-655
MUSHEGH II MAMIKONEAN, MASTER OF THE HORSE for the Emperor. Passes to the Caliph, 654
HAMAZASP II MAMIKONEAN,
for the Caliph, 655-657
CUROPALATE for the Emperor, 657-658
GREGORY I MAMIKONEAN, for the Caliph, 662-684/85
ASHOT II BAGRATUNI, for the Caliph, 686-689/90
NERSEH KAMSARAKAN, CUROPALATE for the Emperor, 689/90-691
SMBAT VI BAGRATUNI, PATRICIAN for the Emperor, 691-697
for the Caliph, 697-700
CUROPALATE for the Emperor, 700-711
ASHOT III BAGRATUNI, for the Caliph, 732-748
GREGORY II MAMIKONEAN, for the Caliph, 748-750
[MUSHEGH MAMIKONEAN, HEAD OF THE INSURGENT PRINCES] C.750
SAHAK VII BAGRATUNI
HIGH CONSTABLE for the Caliph, 755-761
SMBAT VII BAGRATUNI
HIGH CONSTABLE for the Caliph, 761-772
TACHAT ANDZEWATS'I, for the Caliph, 780-782/785
ASHOT IV BAGRATUNI, for the Caliph, 806-826
SMBAT VIII BAGRATUNI
HIGH CONSTABLE for the Caliph, 826-855
BAGARAT II BAGRATUNI OF TARON, PRINCE OF PRINCES, for the Caliph, 830-852
ASHOT V BAGRATUNI
HIGH CONSTABLE, 856
PRINCE OF PRINCES for the Caliph, 862-885
ASHOT I BAGRATUNI OF TARON
CUROPALATE for the Emperor, 877-878

Kings of Armenia

(BAGRATID DYNASTY)
ASHOT I (V) the Great, 885-890
SMBAT I (IX) the Martyr (son), 890-914
ASHOT II (VI) the Iron (son), King of Kings, 914-928
ABAS I (brother), 928-952
ASHOT III (VII) the Merciful (son), 952-977
SMBAT II (X) the Conqueror (son), 977-989
GAGIK I (brother), 989-1020
HOVHANNES [JOHN]-SMBAT III (XI) (son), 1020-1040
ASHOT IV (VIII) the Valiant (brother), 1021-1039
GAGIK II (son), 1042-1045
[cedes Armenia to the Empire], dies c. 1079

Kings of Kars

(BAGRATID DYNASTY)
MUSHEGH (son of ABAS I of Armenia), 962-984
ABAS I (son), 984-1029
GAGIK-ABAS II (son), 1029-1064, d. 1080
[cedes Kars to the Empire]

Kings of Lorhi and Aghbania

(BAGRATID DYNASTY)
GURGEN I (son) of Ashot III of Armenia), 982-989
DAVID ANHOGHIN [the Landless] (son), 989-1046/48
GURGEN II-Kiwrike (son), 1046-1081/89
[Lorhi annexed by the Saljuqs]

Kings of Vaspurakan

(ARTSRUNID DYNASTY)
XACH'IK-GAGIK, 908-936/37
DERENIK-ASHOT (son), 936/37-953
ABUSAHL-HAMAZASP (brother), 953-972
ASHOT-SAHAK (son), 972-983
GURGEN-XACH'IK (brother), 983-1003
SENEK'ERIM-HOVHANNES [JOHN] (brother), 1003-1021, d. 1027
[cedes Vaspurakan to the Empire] (son)

Kings of Siwnik'
A. Line of Siwnik'
SMBAT II, 963-c. 998
VASAK VI (son), c. 998-1019
SMBAT III (cousin and nephew), 1019-?
GREGORY V (brother), ?-c. 1091

B. Line of Gardman-Aghbania
HOVHANNES [JOHN]-SENEK'ERIM (adopted son of Gregory V), c. 1091-1105
GREGORY VI (son), 1105-1166

Kings of Kakhetia
A.
KWIRIKE III the Great, 1010-1029
B.
BAGRATID DYNASTY
GAGIK of Lorhi (son of David Anhoghin and nephew of KWIRIKE III), 1029-1058
AGHSART'AN I (son), 1058-1084
KWIRIKE IV (son), 1084-1102
AGHSART'AN II (nephew), 1102-1105 [Kakhetia annexed by Georgia]

Princes and Kings of Cilician Armenia

A. RUBENID DYNASTY

RUBEN I, 1080-1095
CONSTANTINE I (son), 1095-1099
THEODORE I (son), 1100-1129
LEWON (LEO) I (brother), 1129-1138, d. 1141
[Cilicia occupied by the Byzantines, 1138-1145]
THEODORE II (son), 1145-1169
RUBEN II (son), 1169-1170
MLEH (uncle), 1170-1175
RUBEN III (nephew), 1175-1186
LEWON (LEO) II (I) the Great (brother), 1186-1198/99; King of Armenia, 1198/99-1219
ISABEL (daughter), 1219-1222
PHILIP OF ANTIOCH (consort), 1222-1225

B. HET'UMID DYNASTY

HET'UM I of Lambron (second consort of ISABEL), 1226-1269, d. 1270
LEWON (LEO) III (II) (son), 1269-1289
HET'UM II (son), 1289-1293, 1294-1296, 1299-1305, d. 1308
THEODORE III (I) (brother), 1293-1294, d. 1299
SMBAT (brother), 1296-1298
CONSTANTINE II (I) (brother), 1298-1299
LEWON (LEO) IV (III) (son of THEODORE III), 1305-1308
OSHIN (son of LEO III), 1308-1320
LEWON (LEO) V (IV) (son), 1320-1341

C. LUSIGNAN DYNASTY

GUY I de LUSIGNAN (cousin of LEO V), 1342-1344; Regent: John de Lusignan (brother), 1342
CONSTANTINE III (II) (outsider), 1344-1363
CONSTANTINE IV (III) (cousin), 1365-1373
PETER de LUSIGNAN, King of Cyprus, invited, 1368-1369
LEO VI (V) de LUSIGNAN (GUY'S nephew), 1373-1375
[Mamluk conquest of Cilician Armenia]

Still the Meliks of Artsakh (Karabagh) ruled parts of Armenia for centuries after the fall of Cilicia. This is the reason why the treacherous Bolsheviks annexed it to the Artificially created bogus "country" they called "Azerbaijan", because they knew it was the last bastion of Armenians...

[imported_Hellektor]

Mongoloid Ass Hair Envy

Hi Bugra,

You can not reason with this idiot. He is the most thick-headed, shovanistic, racist Armenian I've come across here.

No matter how "thick-headed, shovanistic, racist" you think I am, what you did to my people is 100000000000000000000 times worse than whatever I say.

He will not listen to reason. He has spewed so many personal insults at us and our ancestors that I can't be bothered to treat him with the slightest respect.

I have treated insolent, ignorant and offensive posts with sarcasm, I have treated the more reasonable posts like that of kemal with due respect. What is it with you Turks? Why do you think you can insult our history, culture, civilization and people and get nothing in return? Well "I can't be bothered to treat...with the slightest respect" those who cunningly insult us.
I listen, and I treat all your posts sentence by sentence. The problem is you cannot confront me.
I show you maps of Armenia from the beginning of history that prove:

I. Eastern Anatolia has NEVER existed.
II. A country called Azerbaijan north of the Arax River has NEVER existed before 1918.
III. Armenia has ALWAYS existed, and the ONLY country represented on the first known world map, the Babylonian Clay Tablet still existing, is Armenia.

You shut the xxxx up and have nothing to say.

I ask you a million times why you are destroying all our monuments and I show you samples.

You shut the xxxx up and have nothing to say.

You say an Armenian state has never existed, and I show you the names of Armenian kings.

You shut the xxxx up and have nothing to say.

You try to pin the Khojaly massacre on Armenians and I show you documents that prove it was YOU who did it.

You shut the xxxx up and have nothing to say.

I show you history written a thousand years ago that describes the same barbarities you have been doing to us ever since.

You shut the xxxx up and have nothing to say.

I show you excerpts from Turkish sources that say all that Armenians-and-Turks-lived-happily-ever-after-for-centuries crap is just a xxxxload of lies.

You shut the xxxx up and have nothing to say.

You bullxxxx the same McFarty garbage over and over again, and accuse me of:

He keeps posting the same crap all over again like a broken record. I have given up on this guy.

I correct an Armenian kid who knows not much of his history and you, sly fox that you are, cunningly twist my words and produce the crap below:

He lives in his own twisted world of fantasy, even blaming sensible Armenians with treason for calling Eastern Anatolia with its correct name. (See: http://www.armeniangenocide.com/foru...=1506#post1506)

I have just one advise for him: Hellektor, You are better off shaving your hairy iranian ass than wasting your time and ours like this!

What's your problem? Ass hair envy? YOU adivise ME when you cannot confront me?
So here's my advice: Depress your momma's tongue in your hairless Mongol ass and get the hell out of this forum.

[1.5 million]

Response to McCarthy - part 1

Nationalists who use history have a different set of goals. They use events from the past as weapons in their own nation's battles. They have a purpose - the triumph of their cause - and they will use anything to succeed in this goal. While a historian tries to collect all the relevant facts and put them together as a coherent picture, the nationalist selects those pieces of history that fit his purpose' ignoring the others.

I agree with McCarthy here. However I disagree concerning who is pursuing a nationalistic agenda - and is twisting facts and misrepresenting. The villain in this case is Turkey and nationalistic Turks. McCarthy epitomizes slanted (so-called) scholarship by willingly and knowingly omitting (overwhelming) historical evidence that proves beyond any doubt that in fact there was no active organized Armenian revolts or anything approaching a civil war in Anatolia during the early 2oth century and in fact there was a pre-mediated brutal political solution to the issue of minority Armenians in the Empire who did not fit in with Pan-Turanist ambitions and who were seen as economic competitors to Turks who could be brutally exploited to further their goals of Turk based "national economy". Mccarthy's complete ignorance of these facts in his published works and his unsupportable contention of Armenian revolt in unconscionable in academic circles. It is clearly he who is pursuing a nationalistic based historiography along with the preponderance of (so-called) Turkish scholars. I'm wondering how the 126 Holocaust scholars who called for Armenian Genocide recognition could be classified as pursuing Armenian Nationalistic interests...hm...

The Armenian issue has long been plagued with nationalist studies. This has led to an inconsistent history that ignores the time-tested principles of historical research. Yet when the histories of Turks and Armenians are approached with the normal tools of history a logical and consistent account results.

Sorry Charlie this is just an ad homonym type of attack. There exists an incredible amount of solid scholarship that fully supports the accusation of pre-meditated Genocide and examines the very real sociological, political and economic factors that led to such. Meanwhile there are (so-called) Turkish scholars...

By the beginning of World War I Armenians made up only 17 percent of the area they claimed as " Ottoman Armenia," the so called "Six Vilayets." Judging by population figures, there was no Ottoman Armenia. In fact if all the Armenians in the world had come to Eastern Anatolia, they still would not have been a majority there.

I won't argue % of populations per se - however Armenian %s were at least double McCarthy's figure and prior to 1905 were even greater (hundreds of thousands of Armenians fled the Anatolia and the Ottoman Empire - primarily for Russia and also somewhat to Europe and the Middle East - as a result of the great Hamidian massacres of the mid 1890s and due to continued predation by nomadic Kurds and due to Ottoman repression. Prior to the mid 1800s the Armenian % in these districts was even greater - however the % of Armenians was diminished due to a period of intense settlement of Kurds and Turkic settlers from Crimea, the Caucuses and to a lesser extent from the Balkans - encouraged by the Sultanate for the purpose of lessening the Armenian presence/dominance in these areas and due to repressive measures and restricted economic circumstances which caused Armenians to relocate elsewhere (in some cases just men left in search of work). However as Armenians had long dominated these anscestral areas and still to a great extent were represented more heavily in the urbanized areas - the regions could still be said to have retained their Armenian character and Armenian culture thrived - both along with a mix of various Turkic and Kurdish groups (no one on their own was represented in greater numbers then Armenians - but only in aggregate) - and in the distinctive Armenian enclaves which still abounded the region.

It was not until Russian Armenians brought their nationalist ideology to Eastern Anatolia that Armenian rebellion became a real threat to the Ottoman S tate.

This is a baseless statement. Armenian "rebellion" - whatever that was - was never a threat to the Ottoman State - never - and the amount, degree and extent of "rebellion" was never more then isolated protests against double taxation and attempts to fight off Kurdish encroachment and deprivations. Outside of this there were various Armenian bands who formed in the 1890s after the Hamadian massacres who were initially formed as self defense units but who sometimes took on brigandish characteristics in many ways mimicking the Kurdish bandits that roamed the countryside (in terrorizing innocent villagers and travelers). Some of these groups were inspired by (and were armed by and some consisted of) Armenian revolutionary organizations. Many of these acted in concert with Turkish revolutionary groups (such as later CUP clubs and committees) who fought against the repression and extortion of the corrupt Sultanate.

Although there were others, two parties of nationalists were to lead the Armenian rebellion. The first, the Hunchakian Revolutionary Party, called the Hunchaks and the Armenian Revolutionary Federation, called the Dashnaks. Both were Marxist. Their methods were violent. The Hunchak and Dashnak Party Manifestos called for armed revolution in the Ottoman Empire. Terrorism, including the murder of both Ottoman officials and Armenians who opposed them, was part of the party platforms.

These parties worked toward reform and (in 1908) assisted the CUP in usurping the Sultan and re-establishing the constitution (of the 1850s) and parliamentary representation (that Hamid had abolished on succeeding the throne in the 1870s). While some of these party members advocated violence (as did some CUP members) and could be considered revolutionaries - for the most part the intent and aspirations were (achieving much promised) reform within the Ottoman system. Even the in famed Ottoman Bank incident of 1894 the "manifesto" of the revolutionaries was one of reform and not overthrow. These Armenians who used violence actually killed very few people - and compared to those killed by the Sultan's secret police and Hamadie regiments and the violence perpetually being committed by nomadic Kurds against peaceful sedentary Armenians of the countryside - these numbers were pitifully small. Another interesting fact is that many Armenian communities actively called on assistance from regional governors to rid themselves of certain Armenians who were acting as bandits and many of these communities captured and turned over such brigands to the Ottoman authorities. These incidents are documented.

British diplomatic sources reported that in preparation for war, in 1913, the
Armenian revolutionary groups met and agreed to coordinate their efforts against the Ottomans. The British reported that this alliance was the result of meetings with "the Russian authorities and they [The Armenians] have thrown off any pretence of loyalty they may once have shown, and openly welcome the prospect of a Russian occupation of the Armenian Vilayets."

Quite a bit of over generalization here - especially for one purporting to be providing a scholarly analysis versus an aimed propaganda piece. The existence of a single report form a single British observer regarding a few particular bands of Armenians does not constitute and indictment against the bulk of the Armenian people nor even against the main Armenian political parties and their representatives who were actively working with the CUP during this period. Note also the use of brackets around "the Armenians" - leads one to wonder exactly who the quote might have been referring to. Again pitifully poor scholarship and typical Mcarthy. Sad.

Before the war began, Ottoman Army Intelligence reported on Dashnak plans:
They would declare their loyalty to the Ottoman State, but increase their arming of their supporters. If war was declared, Armenian soldiers would desert to the Russian Army with their arms. The Armenians would do nothing if the Ottomans began to defeat the Russians. If the Ottomans began to retreat, the Armenians would form armed guerrilla bands and attack according to plan. The Ottoman intelligence reports were correct, for that is exactly what happened.

Ottoman Intelligence reports desperate to concoct a story about Armenians to illustrate their disloyalty. Sure - some instances of this occurred - however again one cannot generalize from these to demonstrate any rebellion - because this did not occur and the Germans who were with the ottoman Army in the East reported that all was quiet - until after Turks began slaughtering Armenians - and even then there was no internal Ottoman Armenian resistance of any magnitude whatsoever reported - and if there had been the Germans would have reported it as they were desperate to alleviate criticism and form a rational to justify what the Turks were doing to the Armenians - but they could not.

[1.5 million]

Response to McCarthy - part 2

Only after seven months of Armenian rebellion did the Ottomans order the
deportation of Armenians.

Flat out made up lie. Besides the chettes of the Special Organization were operating against Armenians and Greeks beginning in 1913 in Western Anatolia (Aegean region) and as early as early/mid 1914 against Armenians in the East. All of this is well documented by Ottoman sources - the truth of which is impeccably proven and corroborated - unlike McCarthy's entirely spurious and unsupported claim.

Those who see the evil of genocide in the forced migrations of Armenians ignore the survival of so many of those who were deported. They also ignore the fact that the Armenians who were most under Ottoman control, those in Western cities such as Izmir, Istanbul, and Edirne, were neither deported nor molested, presumably because they were not a threat.

Ignore the survival? Of what - 15-20%?!?!?!?!? - if that... And it is completely documented that only through the intervention of Gen Liman Von Sanders were the Armenians from Istanbul and Smyrna not "deported" (as in annihilated) en-mass. But even then it is a grave mistake to say they were not deported or killed as they were and in significant numbers. German and other foreign sources describe daily killings and harassment of Armenians in Istanbul - etc. Again McCarthy must be aware of these facts and the reasons why Armenians of theses cities were largely sparred (much was also due to vast amounts of bribes paid). yet he continues to espouse an obvious twisted story - thus outright falsehood and deception - for political purpose (funny just as he decries in his first sentence)! Jerk!

The plan of the Armenian Nationalists has not changed in more than 100 years. It is to create an Armenia in Eastern Anatolia and the Southern Caucasus, regardless of the wishes of the people who live there.

Who eats this type of stuff up - Turks? What total and utter BS.

The Armenian Nationalists have made their plan quite clear. First, the Turkish
Republic is to state that there was an "Armenian Genocide" and to apologize
for it. Second, the Turks are to pay reparations. Third, an Armenian state is to be created.

Er ah hey buddy - there is a Republic of Armenia. And you should understand the complete spurious nature of this claim. This is not the issue in any way shape or form.

We should be very clear on Armenian claims. Their claims are not based on history, because Armenians have not ruled in Eastern Anatolia for more than 900 years.

Is "ruling" the prerequisite for recognition of a culture and a nation that has lived on lands for thousands of years? If one does not "rule" (by force etc) then one has no legitimate claim to be a people or a nation - BS! Tell that to the great many indigenous peoples of the earth who have not lived as an “Empire” or had a government per se – this does not in any way lessen our acceptance of them as heirs to the lands they have lived on for centuries and does not prevent us from recognizing their unique culture. Of all the fallacious arguments put foreword by McCarthy this one has to take the cake.

Their claims are not based on culture: Before the revolutionaries and the Russians destroyed all peace, the Armenians and Turks shared the same culture. Armenians were integrated into the Ottoman system, and most of the Armenians spoke Turkish. They ate the same food as the Turks, shared the same music, and lived in the same sorts of houses.

Deny the existence of Armenian culture? Who is your audience - do you only preach to imbeciles? There were Armenians (largely from urban areas of Western Anatolia - perhaps 20% of the Armenian population at best) who were largely integrated into Ottoman Turkish society and there were those who lived pretty much on their own with their own ways - still most all Armenians were culturally Armenian - and regardless - this is much the point - the CUP/Ottomans killed off their own people - loyal subjects and hoping participants - most all...

The Armenian claims are surely not based on a belief in democracy: Armenians have not been a majority in Eastern Anatolia for centuries, and they would be a small minority there now. Their claims are based on their nationalist ideology. That ideology is unchanging. It was the same in 1895 and 1915 as it is "Armenia" in Eastern Turkey-no matter the history, no matter the rights of the people who live there.

Armenians by and large wanted to be left be to live and prosper as they should have been entitled. The history shows that they were not allowed to do this. The Turkish Ottoman state failed them - stabbed them in the back - absolutely.

No claim of genocide can rationally stand in the light of these facts. If genocide is to be considered, however, then the murders of Turks and Kurds in 1915 and 1916 must be included in the calculation of blame. The Armenian murder of the innocent civilians of Erzincan, Bayburt, Tercan, Erzurum, and all the villages on the route of the Armenian retreat in 1918 must be taken into account. The Armenian molestations and massacres in Cilicia, deplored even by their French and British allies, must be judged. And the exile or death of two-thirds of the Turks of Erivan Province, the Armenian Republic, during the war must be remembered.

What Armenian murders of Turks and Kurds in 1915/16 - all 8 who died in Van? - OK sorry. These countercharges are more baseless then factual. There was great destruction by marauding armies in the Eastern theater on both sides - certainly....but this is not the Genocide - which was a campaign to eradicate ALL Armenians from Anatolia and was carried out in deliberate and systematic fashion - a Genocide committed using all available elements of state power against a largely defenseless and unresisting minority. The historical record of eyewitnesses and documentary evidence from the time proves this beyond any reasonable doubt! So stuff it buster! Oh and BTW - many UN resolutions as well as hundreds of international scholars and many nations and so on adn so forth - all except for some Turks and paid for Turk pseudo scholars accept the definition of the Armenian Genocide as a genocide. Lemkin based the term specifically on the Armenian experience - a recent independent international judiial panel commissioned by TARC judged it so - so where T F are you coming from lyin Justin Mcforgery...