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Originally posted by mustafa mert
You're right, we'll get all the help we can, international or whatever it takes. And we won't rest until justice is served.
Now get lost you dirty piece of crap.
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I wonder why is it so impossible to talk to us. Oh I remember, you're denying what happened to 1.5 million of our people, no hold on, you're actually accusing us of killing turks instead of trying to make up for what your government did to us. All this fake stories of Armenians killing turks... aren't you ashamed? You have absolutely no evidence whatsoever, none, zero! No eyewitness, no nothing. Turks no matter how hard you try, history can't be rewritten!
You're right, we'll get all the help we can, international or whatever it takes. And we won't rest until justice is served.
Now get lost you dirty piece of crap. -
Sorry Turks (yes - sorry Turks)
1/4 1916-5-22 Van 8
1/4 1916-5-22 Van 8.000
1/4 1916-5-22 Van 80.000
Sort of sums it up concerning the veracity of the Turkish position.Comment
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1) United Nations Economic and Social Council Commission on Human Rights
Report Prepared by the United Nations War Crimes Commission
28 May 1948
Information Concerning Human Rights Arising from Trials of War Criminals
II. Developments during the First World War
1. The Massacres of the Armenians in Turkey
2) United Nations Economic and Social Council
Commission on Human Rights
Sub-Commission on Prevention of Discrimination and Protection of Minorities
2 July 1985
"At least 1 million, and possibly well over half of the Armenian population, are reliably estimated to have been killed or death marched by independent authorities and eye-witnesses. This is corroborated by reports in United States, German and British archives and of contemporary diplomats in the Ottoman Empire, including those of its ally Germany. The German Ambassador, Wangenheim, for example, on 7 July 1915 wrote "the government is indeed pursuing its goal of exterminating the Armenian race in the Ottoman Empire" (Wilhelmstrasse archives). "
3) UN Permanent Peoples' Tribunal, Verdict of the Tribunal
April 16, 1984
Verdict of the Tribunal
"...the basic grievance of massacre and extermination is fixed in time sixty-nine years ago in 1915. The Tribunal is convinced that its duties include the validation of historic grievances if these have never been properly brought before the bar of justice and acknowledged in an appropriate form by the government involved.
In this instance, the basis for an examination and evaluation of these Armenian allegations is especially compelling. Every government of the Turkish state since 1915 has refused to come to grips with the accusation of responsibility for the genocidal events.
Particularly relevant in this regard are the charges of deliberate destruction, desecration, and neglect of Armenian cultural monuments and religious buildings. The Tribunal adopts the view that charge of the crime of genocide remains a present reality to be examined and, if established, to be appropriately and openly acknowledged by leaders of the responsible state. The victims of a crime of genocide are entitled to legal relief even after this great lapse of time, although this relief must necessarily reflect present circumstances.
III. The Evidence
The Tribunal is invited to pronounce judgement on the charge of genocide brought on the basis of the events of 1915-1915.
IV. The Turkish Arguments
The Tribunal has examined the Turkish arguments as set forth in the documents submitted to it.
There can be no doubt that the Armenians constitute a national group within the definition of the rule outlawing genocide. This conclusion is all the more evident since they constitute a people protected by the right to self determination which necessarily implies that they also constitute a group, the destruction of which is outlawed by virtue of the rule pertaining to genocide.
There is no doubt regarding the reality of the physical acts constituting the genocide. The fact of the murder of members of a group, of grave attacks on their physical or mental integrity, and of the subjection of this group to conditions leading necessarily to their deaths, are clearly proven by the full and unequivocal evidence submitted to the Tribunal. In its examination of the case the Tribunal has focused primarily on the massacres perpetrated between 1915 and 1917, which were the most extreme example of a policy which was clearly heralded by the events of 1894-1896.
The specific intent to destroy the group as such, which is the special characteristic of the crime of genocide, is also established. The reports and documentary evidence supplied point clearly to a policy of methodical extermination of the Armenian people, revealing the specific intent referred to in Article II of the Convention of December 9, 1948.
The policy took effect in actions which were attributable beyond dispute to the Turkish or Ottoman authorities, particularly during the massacres of 1915-1917. The Tribunal notes on the one hand, however, that in addition to the atrocities committed by the official authorities, the latter also used malicious propaganda and other means to encourage civilian populations to commit acts of genocide against the Armenians. It is further observed that the authorities generally refrained from intervening to prevent the slaughter, although they had the power to do so, or from punishing the culprits, with the exception of the trial of the Unionists. This attitude amounts to incitement to crime and to criminal negligence, and must be judged as severely as the crimes actively committed and specifically covered by the law against genocide.
On the evidence submitted, the Tribunal considers that the various allegations (rebellion, treason, etc.) made by the Turkish government to justify the massacres are without foundation. It is stressed, in any event, that even were such allegations substantiated, they could in no way justify the massacres committed. Genocide is a crime which admits of no grounds for excuse or justification.
For these reasons, the Tribunal finds that the charge of genocide of the Armenian people brought against the Turkish authorities is established as to its foundation in fact.
The Tribunal notes that one of the most serious consequences and one of the most disturbing effects of genocide - above and beyond the irreparable wrongs inflicted upon its immediate victims - is the degradation and perversion of humanity as a whole.
For These Reasons
in answer to the questions which put to it, the Tribunal hereby finds that:
the Armenian population did and do constitute a people whose fundamental rights, both individual and collective, should have been and shall be respected in accordance with international law;
the extermination of the Armenian population groups through deportation and massacre constitutes a crime of genocide not subject to statutory limitations within the definition of the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide of December 9, 1948. With respect to the condemnation of this crime, the aforesaid Convention is declaratory of existing law in that it takes note of rules which were already in force at the time of the incriminated acts;
the Young Turk government is guilty of this genocide, with regard to the acts perpetrated between 1915-1917;
the Armenian genocide is also an 'international crime' for which the Turkish state must assume responsibility, without using the pretext of any discontinuity in the existence of the state to elude that responsibility;
this responsibility implies first and foremost the obligation to recognize officially the reality of this genocide and the consequent damages suffered by the Armenian people;
the United Nations Organization and each of its members have the right to demand this recognition and to assist the Armenian people to that end.Comment
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hahahaha - yes there is bankruptcy in this evasion as well...Originally posted by mustafa mert
Aside the fact that the Nationalists were intitially composed of a central core of former CUP and that they (and even their party machinery and killing machinery - the Special Organization) were entirely at the Nationalists disposal - and even beside the fact that Gen Karim Karabekir was instructed by Ataturk and the Nationalist Government to carry out the "final solution" of Annihilating the Armenians (all extensively documented by first hand sources, accounts and documentation BTW) - the fact of the matter is that the Natioanlist Government of Turkey formally accepted the full mantal of legal inheritance of the the Ottoman Empire. Additionally - though the name of the state was the Ottoman Empire it was known throghout the world during this time as Turkey - as is evidenced in news reports and commontary at the time. The bottom line however is that the Nationalist assumed the Ottoman inheritance - legally and officially and unofficially in regards to the composition of the movement which incorporated large numbers of CUP cadres - a great many of them directly responsible for crimes against the Armenians.Comment
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helpneeded offendi - I think you do (need help - just like the scarecrow in the Wizard of Oz). Funny how Armenians have been denied recognition of our dead for nearly 100 years now with Turkish dismissiveness of the great amount of eyewitness testimony documented it - yet now you come here with questionable unverified accounts and absolutly rediculous figures (Haly Berktay estimates no more then 10,000 Turks in total were ever killed by Armenian forces BTW) - and you have the gaul to accuse us of ignoring your "evidence" of failing to be sympathetic to your losses. I will tell you one thing my offensive friend - up yours where it most hurts - thats what!Comment
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I injoy reading fallacy, but don't really injoy answering them anymore.Originally posted by kemalThe following site is in Turkish but check it out I guess you will have a feeling about what they are about,
These are in English,
These are what I could find now. If you need more just let me know...
By the way For hellektor;
http://www.mersin.edu.tr/ermenisorunu/ezk02.html particularly has an ağıt (poetic song) that describes the events (also http://www.mersin.edu.tr/ermenisorunu/ezk05.html) . Once you asked if we have such songs after the events. Once I have found on the web such a collection. There were hundreds of those poetic songs. If it matters for you I can search the site...
For 1.5 Million,
For the Van 8, 8000, 80000 thing check the chart (unfortunately Turkish). The document states where abouts of the crime as well as the methodology. In the same document there are more that are listed. It is not just adding a zero to the right , in case you need to revise your rhetoric.(It may be a zero for you but for them it was their life).
Any way, now I can really understand what you feel when you think the Turks are denying what had happened...
Amazingly, you are not aware of the things that the Armenian Chetes committed during those days. You are sure that those are just fabricated...
This is denial.
8, 8,000 and 80,000 comes from the same Belge(no. 3), which basically is the same document.
The reference to Van, comes from the footnote number 3, which got its own link here.
Basically, the Belgeler volumes, and Kara Schemsi works are not original archives but known autored collections.
There actually is another version, which insteed of 8, it got "18" and another set for "180,000." James Morgan Read, in his book “Atrocity Propaganda 1914-1919,” report this cases, like Fridtjof Nansen did in his book.
In short, the Van list is a known fabricated news used in the profit of the German Chief of Staff, to turn the German public attention away from the report of Armenian massacres.
I'll make myself the favour to not waste my time answering such falacies, I have already exposed the author of tallarmeniantale website and demonstrated how he uses non existing references. I have nor the energy neither the interest to answer few googlers that just because they have read revisionist websites they think they know something we don't.
Regards
PS: Spare us all the, "it's Turkish, sorry for that." I have Turkish friends and would get translated any Turkish works, and I could even get Ottoman Turkish translated, something you'll have difficulty doing.Comment
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Kemal, you're cute.
The third one is not a fabrication, it happened in 1985 and was voted based on the report submitted by Benjamin Withaker that finally was presented to the Subcomission of Human Rights, led by the expert Carey and voted.Comment
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Originally posted by need help
If you seriously believe that 1.5 million Turks were killed in their own country by a population that was a minority and consisted of no more than 2.5 million, no offense but your brain can’t be functioning correctly and you lack logic and reasoning. I mean, just THINK ABOUT IT!!!
So our buddy Mustafa is claiming that 1.5 million Turks were killed. This shameless protesters here are holding a sign with a number double that amount. 3 million!!! Make up your minds Turks.
<------- This sign by the way just shows the illiteracy of the people who made it! 
I doubt that 3 million Turks even died during the WWI, 3 million Muslims is more like it… But how is that connected to the Armenian genocide is what I want to know. 3 Million Muslims died in WWI, so did 20+ million Christians. What is your point?Comment
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My basis is that the Belge records were not documents for internal consuption, they were even handled to the Ittihadist press organ to be published in the newspapers and distributed in mass accross the empire. Care taken even after the very serious paper crises. The Department II had as charge to build anti-Armenian propaganda, and Refik one of the leading figures of this department in his booklet textually write that the government has written such propagandas to justify the measures taken against the Armenians. If one reads the official internal consuption records, one can hardly find anything that would incriminate the Armenians the way the Belgeler do(serious Turkish historian entirly ignore them). As evidences, I can of course refer to the records released from the T.C. Basbakanlik Devlet Genel Mudurlugu. Osmanli Arsivi Daire Baskanligi. But like this was not enough, the Belge are self destructive, because in the same records for the same dates for the same place we can find different numbers, which of course is impossible due to the nature of the reports.
Originally posted by kemalComment
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There is a book published regarding this issue, it's in French, don't know if there is an English translation though. Don't know about the UN, I hardly use the internet(can't trust it sorry).Originally posted by kemalCan you refer to a UN web site? Or do you say that it is a UN resolution? I would trust you even if you don't provide a reference web site. You are the first one on the site who wrote a good thing for a Turk!
Actually it was a report, but since it was passed to a vote, it could be considered as a resolution. Why?Comment
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