Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[imported_Hellektor]

Already Answered

That is part of the famous hit and run tactic.

I have a more positive picture of you than the others, so don't ruin it with this sort of insinuation. I am as clear as I can be and I believe I have dealt with all your questions. I didn't see the need for more.
The Mustafa mert weasel on the other hand, is a disgrace to the human race and any other species. By copying and pasting the same revisionist crap that inundates the web, he reveals his utter lack of knowledge. Can't you people come up with your own sentences? It really sounds amateurish that this guy knowing nothing of the names and events he quotes, poses as a logical smartass.

[kroissos]

you may delete kroisos, I chanced my name as kroissos due to forgetting my password.

[Tongue]

Muslimedia.com is the internet edition of Crescent International, newsmagazine of the Islamic Movement.

Mustafa, please stop bringing up Muslims' name to back your claims up, like they are our enemy or something. I have Muslim friends, I love them and their families. They're persian and Arab (from Syria). Great people. So stop referring to Muslims in your discussions. The Armenian genocide had nothing to do with Muslims as whole. Many many Arabs helped Armenians during the massacres. Oh and I read somewhere that you said we're saying your grandparents were barbaric killers or something. That's the wrong way to look at it. Not every turk in Ottoman Empire helped out young tutrks in their ugly mission. Some actually helped us (we have a thread dedicated to them). But most didn't get involved at all. So don't worry, the chances of your grandparents belonging to the first category are vey low.

Anyway, since you're posting stuff from Muslimedia.com, I'll post another article from Islamreview.com (another muslim website):

Forgotten Christians of the East


By Theodore G. Karakostas
September 16, 2001 -- The Attacks on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington are a reminder of the existence of evil in the world. It is very clear that Islamic extremism has made its way to America and Europe. In 1995, there were a series of bombings in France related to the civil war in Algeria between the military government and Fundamentalists.

Yet, for the past 1,400 years Eastern Christians have lived with, endured, and coped under Sharia (Islamic law). The first Islamic conquests took place during the last decade of the rule of Byzantine Emperor Heraclius (610-641).

Syria, Egypt, and Palestine were lost to Christianity. Christian leaders such as Patriarch Sophronius of Jerusalem made deals with Caliph Omar for the protection of his flock and of Christendom's Holy places.

Despite Islam's claim of tolerance, Greek Orthodox, Armenian, Coptic, and other Eastern Christians found themselves under terrible conditions. While not immediately forced to convert, Christians were forced to submit and to accept their new rulers as their masters. Economic pressures and discrimination contributed to the eventual conversion of millions of Christians to Islam.

The losses of Eastern Christianity continued following the invasions of Byzantium that were begun by the Seljuk Turks in August 1071. Steadily, Greek Christians were converted to Islam and adopted Turkish and Arabic as their languages. In 1453, Sultan Mehmed II achieved one of Islam's most notorious conquests when he conquered Constantinople and defeated the Christian Empire's last Emperor Constantine Paleologos.

Europe eventually made peace with the Sultan at the expense of Christian Greeks, Serbs, Rumanians, Bulgarians, Albanians, and Armenians. Christian boys were kidnapped and taken to the Janissaries for conversion to Islam and political indoctrination. Women were taken into harems, Churches were converted into Mosques and Christians were forced to acknowledge the superiority of their rulers. "Zakat" a special tax was imposed on Christians. Disputes between Christians and Muslims were heard in Islamic Courts.

At the dawn of the twentieth Century, there were still millions of Christians in the Turkish Ottoman Empire. In 1915, the Young Turks began a process of slaughtering one and a half million Armenian Christians. Furthermore, the Greeks of Pontus and Asia Minor were likewise targeted for extermination.

In 1919, the Greek Army liberated the ancient city of Smyrna. Smyrna is one of the seven Churches that St. John wrote to in the Book of Revelation, the last book of the Bible. The Greek and Armenian Christians who sought their right to self determination were denied not only by Turkish Muslims such as Mustafa Kemal and Noureddin Pasha, but by the western powers looking to protect their economic and geostratic interests at the expense of the Eastern Churches. In September 1922, the Metropolitan of Smyrna, Chrysostomos was butchered and thrown into the sea. French soldiers who witnessed this horror did not intervene.

In fact, the French, Italians, British, and Americans armed the Turks while denying the Greek army the means to effectively fight Kemal's forces. In 1923, Asia Minor was ethnically cleansed when over one million Greeks were expelled upon the orders of Mustapha Kemal. The region where the Seven Ecumenical Councils took place was cleansed of Christianity.

On September 6, 1955 the Turkish government (now secular but as fanatical and anti-Christian as is predecessors) sponsored a vicious pogrom against the Greeks of Constantinople. Most Greeks fled the former Christian Capital and there are only 2,500 left today. Over the past eight years, there have been four bombings of the Ecumenical Patriarchate by fundamentalist extremists. There is no coverage of this in western media just as the slaughter of Turkey's Christian populations is virtually unknown by most westerners.

Since 1984, over two million Christians in the Sudan have been killed in genocidal assaults by the country's Fundamentalist regime. There have been wide reports that black Christians are literally slaves who are purchased like property, owned, and then sold. Yet, the United States, Europe, NATO, and CNN have been rather quiet.

In Egypt, the ancient Coptic Church has been suffering for centuries. Christians are discriminated against, beaten, terrorized, and murdered while their Churches are desecrated and destroyed. When Fundamentalist's embarked on a terror campaign against western tourists a few years ago, these attacks were widely reported. The Copts were not mentioned. Armenian Christians have been fighting for their survival in Nagorno Karabakh against Azerbaijan since 1988. The Armenians were almost annihilated as a result of the Turkish Genocide, yet western companies are looking to placate Turkey by lobbying to prevent recognition by the United States of the Armenian genocide and are interested in Oil in areas like Azerbaijan which leads them to oppose the humanitarian interests of Armenia.

The last decade has been a painful one for Eastern Orthodox Christians. The 1990's began happily enough with the collapse of Communism and the liberation of Orthodox Churches in Russia, Ukraine, Byelorussia, Georgia, Bulgaria, Romania, and Serbia. However, when Serbs reacted to the revival of fascism in Croatia and of Islamic Fundamentalism in Bosnia, and proceeded to defend themselves they were condemned by the entire world.

It was during the Bosnian war that the Clinton administration chose to allow mass murderers like Osama Bin Laden, Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey to invade the Balkans to fight the Serbs (who)were seeking to fulfill their right to self determination. The madness of the west's policy in the Balkans reached its apogee when it declared war on Christian Serbia in 1999 and NATO proceeded to bomb not only military targets but civilian targets such as Monasteries, Hospitals, and trains. Furthermore, the use of depleted Uranium by NATO has been the cause of Cancer and Leukemia among soldiers and civilians.

In December 1998, the Clinton administration announced it would not bomb Iraq during the month of Ramadan when Muslims fast. This was despite claims by the administration that Baghdad was developing weapons of mass destruction. Yet on Orthodox Easter 1999, NATO bombs continued to fall on Serbia without interruption.

It must be noted that Osama Bin Laden, the architect of mass murder and human suffering had established a base in Albania, Bosnia (whose government is said to have given him a passport) and NATO occupied Kosovo. In fact, the detaching of Kosovo from Serbia by NATO is the west's most recent sacrifice of Eastern Christianity.

It should be noted that there is tolerance for Christianity in the Islamic world. Iran has a large Armenian community and allows its Christians to be elected to Parliament and to be sworn in on a Bible. Syria has long been known for its tolerance of Christianity. The Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch is located in Damascus and has a flock of at least half a million or so. Iraq likewise tolerates its Christian communities. In Palestine, the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate recently received the support of the Palestinian leadership against the intervention of the Israelis in its recent election.

Over the last several years, there have been various anti-Orthodox commentaries in the western media. The Serbs in particular have been demonized. Some writers have accused Greece of being "Muslim hating." This is particularly bizarre in light of the history of suffering that Orthodox Christians have experienced.

The attack on the World Trade Center was an act of barbarism. Religion should not be confused with political extremism. Yet, barbaric acts like this by religious fanatics are routine for Eastern Christians struggling to survive in some Muslim countries. It is my fervent wish and hope that America will recognize the fanatical zealots and what they are capable of, and that America and Europe will finally not only acknowledge Eastern Christianity and its bloody experiences, but it will stop sacrificing the Eastern Churches and their flocks to the likes of Turkey, Egypt (has a strong fundamentalist movement and an Islamic partner in government), Bosnia, and others.

http://www.islamreview.com/articles/...ristians.shtml

[Tongue]

Tongue i m not talking about muslim solidarity something..but its a kind of fact that if you were muslims nobody would care about u!! anyway what i say is clear those governments and nations who are supporting your propoganda have terrible past records and they never accept it (at least officially)..many turks coming here and what we say very is clear...armenians were well organised,cooperated with russians and they attacked ottomans months ago from the deportation.this simply shows the reason of deportation.armenians are not deported because they were armenians but they were in coalition with the enemy.

Whatever you do, just don't bring up Muslims's name to win the argument. You keep mentioning the Algerian genocide like it has something to do with the Armenian genocide. I don't care if France recognizes the Armenian genocide and not the Algerian. All I care about is the truth and how your government is responsible for hiding it.

"Armenians were ALL armed"... your level of ignorance is simply amazing.

amazingly we turks are very well informed about your claims however u know nothing (and dont want to know) about our documents.whenever u meet a new turkish evidence its just a crap piece of propoganda for you

Please read

[imported_Hellektor]

The Last Reply to Those Who Quote Selectively

I spend hours typing and responding to your offensive and intentionally insulting messages, analyzing your garbage, sentence by sentence and you show your real face by this very message, by quoting only the phrases where I have been unable to hold back my disgust.
You deliberately don't mention why I said those things.
This is the last time I dignify your hypocritical Turkish "peace loving", "reasonable" insinuations with a reply, and I have lost any hope in the belief that Turks can someday be a part of human society.

The greatest bandits of all time stealing our homeland, our women and children, stealing our genes by raping and forcefully Turkifying the Armenians so frequently that they lost their Mongoloid features say:

Watch u stealing our land with terror and help of the imperialist countries.Armeinans invaded Van and hand it to the Russian troops after killing the muslim population.?? What would any other state do??

I said:

Steal YOUR land? Armenians invaded Van? VAN IS AN ARMENIAN NAME you pathological liar. You are a sick xxxx.

Slandering the great Armenian Hero whom he did not know before visiting the "Holdwater" racist, revisionist, anti-Armenian website:

Condemned to be shot by a firing squad of Stalin's goons,

I said:

You're a goon and you don't even know it! By this sentence you mean that he was a good man and Stalin was evil.

Knowing nothing of the Armenian history and the treacherous plan of the Turks to use World War II as another pretext to "relocate" the Armenians to the other world by calling the Armenians Semitic:

the general put his "skills" to work for Adolf Hitler a few decades later. Commander of the infamous 819th Armenian battalion during World War II; recognized as the 'Jew Hunter' by the Nazis

I said:

The reason they had to join the German Army was because you TREACHEROUS, barbaric, savage Mongols wanted to persuade Hitler that Armenians were Semetic, so that they would be annihilated by Hitler and your filthy Pan-Turkist dream would come true once and for all.

Downgrading the three thousand year Armenian civilization:

...Turks prevented a great Armenian culture and civilisation!!! woww which civilisation?? ...dont teach us democracy!! armenia is 200 year behind from turkey when the subject is democracy....

I said:

in the 200 years ahead Turkey, Kurds who are 30% of the population, could not dare speak their language until recently, while a Kurdish minority in Armenia has more rights than any Kurds in any Islamic country. So shove it 200 meters "behind from turkey".

Banging the denialist drum and never listening to anything I say, never wanting to discuss any subject and rejecting the existence of Armenia:

You are calling my grandfathers as killers and i m ready to discuss with you but you are not ready to listen what we say.

I'd like you to prove the following wrong:

Your grandfathers and your great grandfathers and your great great grandfathers and your great great great grandfathers were all savage, barbaric, nomadic two legged humanoid beasts. Just read history: Chingiz, Temur, Qubilai, Mango, Seljuk, Hulagu...Abdulhamid, Talaat, Kemal were all blood thirsty, man eating, rape crazy, child stealing, cities to cinders razing, mass murdering genocidal maniacs. In order to shake off this negativity and start being part of the civilized human race, you should face your history.

Shamelessly confirming the ugliest crime in history, and that, in an Armenian forum and calling the Armenian Genocide the best solution:

And as many turks i believe that deportation was the best solution

I said:

Then you confirm that you're a genocidal maniac like your grandfathers.

The biggest irony of all is the new nickname, Objective, that this sick, sadistic fascist has chosen to spread his slanders. If you know the meaning of the word objective you would not quote my message selectively. I answered you on all accounts and you don't have any proof to counter my arguments.
Why have you never said anything about the maps?
Why don't you apologize for cunningly trying to pin your barbaric savagery against your own kind in Khojali, when I show proof that even your president admitted that it was YOU who did it?
Why don't you take back the excrement you throw at our civilization when I prove that the only country on the oldest known world map still existing is Armenia?
Why don't you ever say you're sorry when I mention the names of the Armenian kings throughout history when you regurgitate the McFarty garbage that Armenia never was a powerful state?
Why don't you ever quote my messages when I talk about the abominable practice of janissary?
Why you never expressed the slightest feeling of remorse when I mentioned the unbearable taxes and oppression imposed on the Armenians and other Christians during the Ottoman Tyranny?
I know why. Because somehow, somewhere down the line you missed the evolutionary train and your brains did not develop beyond the hunter gatherer stage. That is why you cannot feel shame, remorse, sympathy, guilt...
You have not acquired attributes such as honesty, modesty, objectivity, sincerity, understanding of someone else's suffering, self-criticism...no sarcasm intended, I really believe this and your message shows this clearly.
Only if you had the possibility to see this yourselves...
Do you see how manipulative and hypocritical you are?
I am not a historian or a scholar but my deep knowledge of the suffering of my people and all the extraordinary events resulting from our will for survival
gives me the possibility to counter your shallow McFartyan revisionism and it's only human that your insinuations and insolence irritate me to the point where I see no other way of responding than to give you back the offence.
However, I know now you are only here to insult us and make us mad so that we will utter some curses. What is a cuss in comparison to what your barbarian grandfathers did to us the last thousand years?
I know that you don't have an answer so "nevermind" bothering again.

[imported_Hellektor]

Deceptive Politeness

1. Did Nevermindname ever use abusive language against anyone?[/B]

I dealt with this in the previous post.

Tongue mentions that the Khojaly massacre committed upon the Azeri-turks by the Armenians in 1992 took place in retaliation of an attack to the Armenians by the Azeri-turks 4 years earlier in Sumgait. She thinks the Armenian massacre of the Azeri-turks is justified by the Sumgait attack committed by the Azeri-turks 4 years earlier.

You ar a hypocrite to the bone:
Have the GUTS for a change not to ignore my post regarding Khojaly where I prove that it was YOU who did it. You expect me to call you a polite, civilized, honest, truth-seeking human being when you STILL say "...the Khojaly massacre committed upon the Azeri-turks by the Armenians in 1992 "? Who do you think you are fooling?
Prove me wrong if you can, and don't be so "touchy", although I know your irritation is also hypocritical. You notice that Tongue was not aware of the reality of Khojaly and you attack her like a hyena and slyly say "...While I’m happy to finally see an Armenian showing some sign of regret over killings of inncocent Azeri-turks". Thanks to your diabolical, despicable smear campaign she thought that it was true. That's how "honest" you are. Don't be offended.

I can’t help but think:

Applying Tongue’s wonderful logic, couldn’t one claim that the events the Armenians claim to be recoginised as “Genocide” took place in retaliation of the massacres committed by the Armenians in Anatolia and their siding with the Russian enemy in an already troubled Ottoman Empire at war?

You cannot justify genocide. You still confirm MY view of the Turks.

[Tongue]

6. Did it ever occur to you (and some of the contributors) after about a thousand years of ruling of the Turks (the Turks came to Asia Minor at 1048 http://www.allempires.com/empires/seljuk/seljuk1.htm ) the locals still had their faiths, their languages, their historical monuments, etc. (Today there are over 30 countries in the soils once ruled by the Ottomans). Nothing is left from the Mayans in Mexico as a written document; all of the offsprings of Inkas and Aztecs are now Catholics and speak Spanish. No need to mention the Indians in North America. Also the continental Indians now speaks English! (Did you know that India was also ruled by the Turks for hundreds of years prior to the English, guess who ordered to build Taj Mahal? - http://www.goindiago.com/history/medieval.htm -). Any way, why there were many nonmuslims in a state ruled by such a barbaric people?

The barbaric people were the nationalistic party ‘young turks’. They ruled the Ottoman Empire from 1908 until the end of World War I , 1918. When you’re talking about thousands of years of Turkish ruling, you’re talking about the 10th century on. You’re not specifically talking about the ‘young turk’ government of the 20th century. That’s the party responsible for the Armenian genocide. They also massacred many Assyrian citizens of the Ottoman Empire as well. The stuff you mentioned have absolutely nothing to do with the ‘young turk’ government. Taj mahal for example. It was built in 1630-1650something. It took them over 20 years to build it. The young turks ruled 300 after the Taj Mahal was built. In your post, you focused on Turkish rulers throughout the history. That’s not our concern. Lets talk about the “young turks” and what they did. So here is my answer to your question:
-There WERE many non-muslims (Armenians specifically) in Ottoman Empire BEFORE the ‘young turks’ took power. There were 2 million Armenians living in Ottoman Empire. How many live in the present day Turkey? 40,000! What happened to them?

I don't have time right now to answer your previous questions, but I will.

Oh, and welcome to our forum.

[imported_Hellektor]

Genocidal but still touchy...

...who only pointed to facts & sources which made you rabid.

You prove that you're no different from mustafa mert, only your English is better. The facts he copied and pasted (read collected from McFarty garbage can and smeared on us), are the most offensive revisionist ordure ever uttered. I will deal with the whole McFarty "essay" sometime soon.

Above, however, YOU ARE INSULTING THE ENTIRE TURKISH NATION, regardless of what they admit, suspect, deny, do, think, and feel.

You also deliberately ignore that all of you are constantly insulting our greatest heroes and mocking our civilization, a concept that doesn't apply to your "ENTIRE TURKISH NATION".
Man (if you are one)!YOUR "ENTIRE TURKISH NATION" KILLED MY ENTIRE ARMENIAN NATION AND ARE DESTROYING OUR CHURCHES AND CEMETERIES AND ARE WRONGFULLY OCCUPYING ENTIRE 90% OF MY COUNTRY.
What is an insult from an Armenian disappointed in human justice. You are "touchy", have some sense of humor!

I know that you will not apologize for this, but I do apologize for mistaking you for a human being!

You have to apologize first for the thousand year suffering your grandfathers and your great grandfathers and your great great grandfathers and your great great great grandfathers inflicted upon us. I only suspected that you might be a human being, so there is no reason for me to apologize.
By the way, when did I insult you personally? Oh, you never cuss!

So please take this positive picture of mine and shove it in some appropriate part of your body.

Too late, I already put it on the floor of my Iranian toilet and after having produced a statue of Talaat on it I flushed it down the drain. Maybe it comes out your side of the world and you may want to shove it up yours.

Regardless of how low-life, disgusting, and stinky you may get, I will refuse to insult your ancestors and limit myself to your despicable self.

Take care to wash it so that "your despicable self" doesn't get "disgusting, and stinky".

Thus, feel free to call my entire lineage until Adam&Eve whatever you want

I try hard but I cannot convince myself that your lineage goes back to "Adam&Eve". Your lineage goes back to the Gray Wolf according to your own customs, and you prove to be a legitimate descendant.
I won't dignify your posts with another reply so "feel free to call" me "whatever you want".

...& bark for the rest of your life.

A Persian proverb says: The moon is shining and the dog is barking at it...

[imported_Hellektor]

Read my posts carefully, then we'll see if we can talk

Hi Hellektor,

Hi,

Before I start a sleepless night answering your post sentence by sentence, I suggest that you read all my posts carefully first. I know they are long and in this day and age no one seems to be willing to spend more than a few seconds reading something.
Turks like quotes, I don't. A quote from a book you haven't even seen the cover doesn't prove you to be knowledgeable. I don't discard quotes, I just say that you should also deepen your knowledge by actually reading books and drawing positive and meaningful conclusions.
Contrary to all the Turks who have posted in this forum, I have a personal approach in dealing with the issues pertinent to this forum. I have noticed that all the Turkish members have an extremely shallow understanding and a twisted view of the Armenian History that come from the fascist brainwashing Turkish educational system and the revisionist garbage created by McFartys of this world. Almost 99.99% of all the Turkish views of the Armenians come from this camp.
In a way I have a sad feeling for what this has turned you into and I really hope to come across a Turk that is willing to bring some understanding and some willingness to shake off the negativity associated with the Turks.
If you really want to start a dialog and the regurgitated rubbish you have pasted in your post is unintentional, then come back after you have read my posts carefully.
And do not be offended by my reactions to some very offensive posts.
To give you an example:

And where did the Armenians came to this land? I presume you were created in what you call Armenia...

This is very offensive. If you are not just pestering us then go and read some books on the Armenian history. Forget McFarty, read history that is being written for the last 1600 years by Armenian historians and earlier records by Greeks and others.

Based on the phenotype studies Turkey's Turks are most closest to the Georgians. I can't find the reference but that was a published paper in a scientific journal.

You see, this is what I'm talking about. I can show you websites that claim that Sumerians, Achaemenids, Urartu, Parthians, Medians, Aghvanq (Caucasian Albanians), Egyptians, Greeks and everybody else in this univers and all the others were of Turkish origin. doesn't this point to civilization envy? So, before I spend more time on your post that may end in my regretting to have responded, read all my posts carefully.
You'll get the answers to most of your questions. Then we'll see if we can talk.

As I said this is our land and will be ours.

I hope someday this view is going to change but before that day I'll try hard to convince myself that there are Turks who can have an objective view.
P.S. Mango Khan is the sibling of Holaku and Kubilai and he's the boss.
Seljuk is the leader of the Oguz tribe of bandits that brought your earliest ancestors along with a thousand years of suffering for the Armenians and (not only) to the lands you now claim yours.
You see how deep your quotation knowledge is?

[Tongue]

kemal,

If they were deported, why didn’t they ever return home? According to you, they should’ve been allowed to come back after the World War ended. One and a half million people decided to abandon their lands, homes, businesses, etc just like that? They didn’t come back for their belongings because they were dead.

You say “they were deported” like it’s nothing big. They weren’t just deported. Many of them (if not all) died of dehydration and starvation in this so-called deportation and concentration camps, but I’ll get to that later.

So you’re saying Armenians were deported for helping Russians in WWI? The hatred towards Armenians started way before the WWI. As the matter of fact, which I’m sure you know, there was another pogroms of Armenians ordered by Sultan Abdul Hamid II in which hundreds of thousands of Armenians were killed. This was in the 1890s. About 20 years before the WWI even began! Because of this, Armenians at first were actually supportive of the Young Turks government replacing the Sultan’s regime. Since other Christian minorities, including the Greeks, had started to gain independence Armenians became the only major Christian minority in the Ottoman Empire. They also wanted independence but what they wanted was contrary to what the new virulently nationalistic government of Young Turks wanted for Turkey. Their pan-Turkic dream was “Turkey for Turks“. And WWI just gave them the excuse to carry out their plan…. As I said, the hatred started way before the WWI. The World War was just a cover up and an excuse. “Since Armenians are Christians who want independence and we’re fighting their brothers, Russians, we should deport them to the Syrian Desert, Der Zor to eliminate the chance of them turning against us”. Did you know many Armenian men served in the Ottoman army against Russians in WWI! It’s amazing how now, they’re being called predators. The World War was a good opportunity to make the long-time dream of "Turkey for Turks" of Young Turks come true. Anyway… and who exactly were they deporting though? The women, children, and the old. There were hardly any men left to be deported. On the eve of April 24th hundreds of Armenian leaders, doctors, businessmen, etc. were murdered in Istanbul. That’s the day we commemorate every year by the way. This men slaughtering continued for a while, so by the time the deportations started, there were hardly any men left to be deported. So tell me, was the government scared of Armenian women and children rebelling against them?