Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[Reincarnated Am]

So-called civilized people. (This is not an Armenian site)

Take your time and read this!


What happened to the Turkish Assyrians?

http://www.aina.org/articles/turkish.htm

[Tongue]

but its a kind of fact that if you were muslims nobody would care about u!!

I HAD TO reply to this illiterate comment you made.



Ottoman Empire was FOR Muslim Turks. There were racial distinctions between Turks and non-Turks such as Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, Bulgarians and Slavians, Arabs, etc. There were also religious distinctions between Muslims and Christians, and Christians were named pagan of the Ottoman Empire. In every court of justice, the Muslim was right and the pagan was guilty. Taxes were also too heavy for Christian citizens. In justice between Turks and non-Turks, always Turks were right. And this is in the 19th century, before the Armenian genocide. Almost all the Ottoman kings had the ideology of Pan-Turkism . None of the Christians had security of life. There were no trials or punishments if Turks or Kurds encroached on the life, property and chastity of Armenians or other Christians. Have you heard of "Afvajeh Hamidiyeh"? Those were the groups of Kurds established by the order of Sultan Abdul Hamid to be the gendarmes of Armenians in order to encourage Kurds to kill, plunder and encroach on Armenians! Take the 28th of December 1895 in Urfa for example. Over 2500 Armenian men, women and children, fearing for their lives, had sought refuge in the altar of a church; undeterred Ottoman gendarmes set the church afire and its inhabitants were burnt alive. So can you see how history contradicts your comment? If you were a non-turk nobody would care about you.

Your comments, such as the one you made above ,just shows how uninformed, benighted, ignorant, and illiterate you are about your own history!

[imported_Hellektor]

Trying to find a ground for dialog, Part One

Hi Hellektor,

Hi,

You are going too fast, I still have to catch up with your first post. You didn't go and read my messages no matter how many times I asked you to do so. I also have my own approach and ideas what makes up a nation etc.

Let's first deal with this message and I'll deal with your first a bit later. Your second will have to wait longer. To prevent repetitions I'll try to cut it short for the present post.

Let me remind you of the real issue that somehow because of your upbringing has caused you to see things in a twisted manner. I say this not to insult or mock you; I think you are also a victim of your system. You will admit it sometime, and I want to believe this, that the whole Turkish Republic is founded on a big lie. All you say just testifies to this.

You say: "I also demand the same respect for my posts as well from you." but knowingly or as a result of your upbringing, you utter some very insulting statements that give rise to my outrage. Don't get this wrong. You see, I'm being sincere; you cannot deny this. All I'm asking you is to be sincere too. You know, we also have developed negative views of the Turks because of the events of the past. When you utter offensive statements, knowingly or unintentionally, I tend to believe you do it on purpose to pester us, and that may be because of the picture we have of Turks. With every post you and the other Turks strengthen my view that you do not seem to care about this negativity you knowingly or unintentionally create and that results in me saying things that offend you. Do I make sense? Can I trust that you do not want to pester us when you say insolent things about the Armenians?
You never seem to quote when I say time and time again that I want to see a world where if someone says "barbarian Turk", I'm the one who is embarrassed first. Do you care when I say this? When you only quote the end of paragraph phrases where I say something out of outrage, it gives me the feeling (rightly or unjustly) that you don't want to be civilized; do you get what I'm trying to say? I hope so. Do you want to be considered as civilized citizens of this world or just because you're somehow afraid (consciously or otherwise) that someday we are going to demand our rights including our homeland or at least some parts of it, you continue to be aggressive/insensitive/offensive? Again don't get me wrong (intentionally or otherwise), it's a sensitive issue and everything can be interpreted differently.

OK, this is the deal and it's nonnegotiable, try to digest it, however hard it might be. I cannot understand why an average Turk cannot see this but I try to. The day you are mentally ready to objectively grasp this, it will be a GIANT LEAP towards us understanding one another. (They say red writings are remembered easier):

Armenians lived in their homeland for thousands of years, then the Turks invaded and after centuries of abuse they decided to empty Armenia of its indigenous inhabitants. As a result no Armenians live in their ancestral home anymore. This is by definition called genocide, end of story.

I am not sure if I made my point clear. I said that yes we are sumerians, we are urartus, we are greeks, we are turks]

No, you didn't get my point. I meant that Turks knowing that they are comers, and fearing that this fact will cause them to be in the wrong dealing with the views of the survivors of the indigenous people, frantically make up wishful history to "prove" that they were there before the Armenians. These attempts are totally ridiculous and immature; therefore you have to throw such ideas in the garbage. Did you know that already in Ataturk’s time they were trying to "prove" that all the languages of the world originated from Turkish? It was so baloney that even they noticed it and buried it in the trash can of history. BTW, the project was called "Sun Theory of Languages".
Even today similar "studies" are being carried out and all the civilizations are claimed to be of Turkish origin. You didn't seem to get this; I hope you do now. So once more: they say everything's ORIGIN is Turkish. You are not an origin you are a RESULT.
Let me tell you straight that as far as it goes for us non-Western Europeans, race is not an issue.
Racism is a strictly Western European thing and comes from the fear of becoming darker in outward features, period.
The Armenian Genocide was not because Armenians looked very differently from the rest of the subjects. It was because they were Christians and by definition not Turkish.
Again, the religious issue shouldn't be confused with the existing Islam/West conflict. It's only because by being Christians, even though their language and names were taken from them and replaced with Turkish, they were still non-Turks.
So what is a Turk according to MHO?
The reality is that "Turk" is a concept, a new nationality; the process of becoming a nation has not been accomplished yet. The Turk is a Muslim who speaks Turkish and believes he/she is a Turk. The DNA composition is totally irrelevant.
Turks of today are not a race. They are a result of the systematic or otherwise, forced Turkification throughout the Ottoman Rule, whether you like it or not.
When I try to figure out why this had to be and I try to perceive it from the ruling class viewpoint, I can see that they needed to do this out of the fear of losing grip, because they were the minority. The whole "Numbers Game" (there were 1,000,000; no 800,000; no 600,000; no 300,000 Armenians, etc.) being repeated over and over in the forums reveals this to be the case. I have come to think of this as an instinctive, inherent characteristic of the different Turkic tribes. History confirms this as well.
The same thing has gone on in Azerbaijan from the ill day it was conceived in 1918. The people living in that region were comprised of Turks (Tatars of the Caucasus), Kurds, Tats, Talish, Lezgins, Udins, Armenians, etc. The events of the past eight decades are very similar and a miniature model of the Ottoman Rule. The newly created "Azeri" "nation", saw the forced assimilation of non-Turkish peoples into the monolithic Turkish whole and in the case of Armenians, acts of genocide and ethnic cleansing, perpetrated even in the context of USSR, a necessity to sustain their domination.
The historically Armenian region of Nakhijevan, (as well as Artsakh) wrongfully annexed by the treacherous Bolsheviks to Azerbaijan to provide the bogus country with a border with Turkey, was completely cleansed of the Armenian inhabitants in the Soviet era. Ethnocide the “natural” consequence of unrecognized genocide manifested itself in the barbaric destruction of the ancient cemetery of Jugha in November 2002, where the finest collection of Khachkars (stone crosses) stood for centuries.
My own ancestors were forcefully migrated to Iran by Shah Abbas (himself of Turkish origin) in 1604, who was fighting against your ancestors. He burned the entire region to cut the supply routes thus, the advance of the Ottomans.
It's believed that out of two to three hundred thousand Armenians forcefully relocated, about half died, mostly drowning in the Arax River. However we have forgotten the dark days and since Shah Abbas settled us in an area near Isfahan and let us build a new city that the Armenians called Nor Jugha (New Julfa) in memory of their home, the Armenians flourished and were a respected minority. Just like in Ottoman territory, Armenians in Iran brought every western concept from the first printing machine to cinema and everything in between, and they even had the 100% of foreign trade in their hands for a long time.
Contrary to what happened in Turkey, Armenians in Iran were almost never subject to harsh treatment and even in this closed theocratic regime, we still enjoy lots of mutual respect towards each other. We feel as real Iranians and we are proud of both cultures.

I didn't say the Greeks are Turk. Or Urartus are Turks...Do I make sense??

I believe I have answered this in the above paragraphs.

Now let's return to my remark when I asked you "Were the Armenians created in these lands?". The way that I perceive history tells me what I told for us...

I have written a short "story" that I will paste here. To keep you from being influenced by the revisionist garbage they put in your receptive mind ever since you were a kid I don’t use the word “Armenian”. Don't be offended, I wrote it before I came to this forum. Out of self-respect I don't change anything, it's honest at least.

[imported_Hellektor]

Trying to find a ground for dialog, Part Two

Turkish History For Dummies

To illustrate the absurdity of the Turkish reasoning when dealing with history and to somehow make the not acquainted perceive this absurdity, let's imagine you are a member of a family living in a house in a ranch established many years ago by your great, great, great, great grandparents. Let's for the fun call your family the Waltons. Your family, the Waltons, has had its share of good and bad days and over the years you have managed to keep the ranch going: you cultivate the land, graze your cattle, you build irrigation systems, your ranch house, the barn, decorative structures and everything you might have thought necessary for your ranch.

One day some wild and uncouth horsemen attack your ranch, let's call these guys the Kipchaks, they raze everything you built to the ground and burn whatever is standing to cinders. They break into the house and rape every member of the family between ten and fifty, then they brutally slaughter most of them in front of your eyes with unimaginable savagery while taking endless pleasure in what they do. It so happens that you manage to escape this carnage.

Now years have passed and you have been desperately trying to explain to the heartless world, whom economical circumstances have brought close to the Kipchaks, what happened to you but not many seem to be interested in your story. Rather they fight with one another over the courtship of Kipchaks.

And the Kipchaks? What do they say when they are asked for a reaction to your just claims? Well, generally speaking they replace the names "Waltons" by "Kipchaks" and vice versa and regurgitate your story. Specifically they say that "these lands have always belonged to Kipchaks" or "these lands are the eternal possession of Kipchaks". "The Olsens and the Engelses were living in nearby ranches countless generations ago. Although they moved out of the area many years ago and we will never be able to ask them, they are by no means related to the Waltons therefore they are in fact Kipchaks. Since they are Kipchaks and they settled in the nearby areas generations ago it definitely means that their lands also belong to Kipchaks the same way the lands claimded by the Waltons belongs to Kipchaks and has always belonged to Kipchaks. It was in fact the Waltons who quite recently moved in Kipchak land and massacred innocent indigenous Kipchaks"...

You are not in an enviable situation, yet you will never give up hope and while you did manage to win back a tiny bit of your land in an unequal battle with the armed up to their teeth Kipchaks, you are surrounded by the killers of your entire family and the occupiers of your land. They neither feel any remorse for the horrendous crimes they committed (and still commit in form of destroying every bit of evidence: your graveyard and all else you built which would prove your just claims), nor will they feel any shame twisting the truth whatever way the moment dictates, fabricating stories that defy logic.

All you have is faith, your rich family traditions and above all dignity. The future will show whether these will be sufficient to finally win back your lands from the Kipchaks and let justice prevail. Until then you have to hold on and you cannot afford to despair.

Compare my story with what you are saying below and see if you can put yourself for a moment at least, in our place:

Furhermore, it's not only the genes that makes us the owner of this land. It is the food, it is the music, it is the clothing, ...etc. Our music is, what it was played in this land thousands and thousands year ago. We are wearing the version XXX of the cloths that the sumerians are wearing. Recall my referrals to the vocabulary that we are using in Turkey and how assyrians are still living with us. Who ever passed through this lands brought some thing, and still have many things left to date.

I am open to discussion. But you have to consider that I am an outcome of "the fascist brainwashing Turkish educational system and the revisionist garbage".

I know!

P.S. Seljuk didn't leave the ancestral lands. He just established the proto-state of his tribe which will later named as Empire of Seljuks...Mangu I am not an expert on Mongolian history.

I know too. I just cited some names in no particular order and you don't have to analyze them one by one. Mango is also referred to as Mongke so maybe you had heard this name, it doesn't matter anyway.

By the way, knowing this much about the Turkish history do you intentionally mix the Mongols and the Turks with each other? It is kind of telling an Hutu you are a Tutsi? Or a chineese you are a korean! (Actually in my point of view it has a point though )

Before having seen this, I have answered your question in writing the response to your previous post. It's not ready yet.
From your first post:

Did you know that India was also ruled by the Turks for hundreds of years prior to the English, guess who ordered to build Taj Mahal?

Here you equate Turks with Mongols...

[imported_Hellektor]

Quotes, Lies and No Video Tape (or any evidence for that matter) Part One

Your first "reply" to any of my posts was a series of selective quotes from my post dealing with selective quotes, where I had mentioned, that was going to be my last post dealing with the selective quoters...
I tried not to heed the comments in your post giving them the benefit of the doubt as being unintentional, but then I thought this is an appropriate chance to clarify what I view as inappropriate.

Did it ever occur to you (and some of the contributors) after about a thousand years of ruling of the Turks (the Turks came to Asia Minor at 1048...the locals still had their faiths, their languages, their historical monuments, etc

Would you quote this for a change?
To this very day your government and that of the bogus “country" north of the Arax River are not sparing any effort in destroying Armenian monuments, churches and cemeteries in particular.
Over 95% out of at least 2200 working Armenian churches accounted for in 1912 are now destroyed. Is this tolerance or a cover up for the despicable crime of the Armenian Genocide? According to a 1974 UNESCO account, from the 913 monuments still standing after the genocide 464 were totally destroyed, 252 were turned in ruins and 197 needed serious restoration. They are trying to erase every trace of the Armenian civilization and then they “teach” you that the Armenians didn't live in Armenia.
Check these pictures and convince yourself:

Khtskonk Monastery Before and After 1

Khtskonk Monastery Before and After 2

Bagrevand Monastery Before and After

Narekavank Before and After

"Did it ever occur to you" you just said "the Turks came to Asia Minor at 1048", and by calling the indigenous inhabitants of Asia Minor "the locals" in the same sentence, you pulverize your implanted block of wishful history that the Turks lived in our occupied lands before? I wonder if you wouldn't pretend not to have taken notice of this.

(Today there are over 30 countries in the soils once ruled by the Ottomans).

This is what I mean by self-righteousness and I still have to hear a justification for it.

Nothing is left from the Mayans in Mexico as a written document;

The total blackout concerning the Armenian history imposed by your system is stupefying. One of the darkest pages in our history was “written” a day when your ancestors burned over 10000 manuscripts which were taken to a monastery to keep them out of reach of the paws of the invaders, but alas...
In fact it’s estimated that up to 80% of ALL Armenian manuscripts ever produced have been destroyed by the Turks starting from the Seljuk invasion.
You wouldn’t care to quote the above, would you?

all of the offsprings of Inkas and Aztecs are now Catholics and speak Spanish.

"all of the offsprings of" Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians "are now" Muslims "and speak" Turkish. Sure, this will escape your selective attention but "Did it ever occur to you" how on earth hordes of the nomadic horsemen who numbered several tens of thousands in 1299, now count about 70 million (and some), and the indigenous people are almost totally exterminated? "Did it ever occur to you" or did you ever wonder how your far eastern features have changed in so short a time and the majority of Turks don't resemble their Turkmen, Uzbek and Tatar kin?
At least the Invaders of the Americas had the "dignity" not to base their Empire on RAPE. It is so that the majority of the descendants of the European conquerors of the continent have still preserved their European features after 500 years.

No need to mention the Indians in North America.

There you have a point at least. This is a forum dedicated to the Armenian Genocide and pointing fingers to other genocidal folk doesn't alleviate the burden of sins of the Ottomans and doesn't put them off the hook.

Did you know that India was also ruled by the Turks for hundreds of years prior to the English, guess who ordered to build Taj Mahal?

Here you equate Turks with Mongols! Yes I know what the Mongol sword did to the Indian sub-continent but let's just leave it there. Shah Jahan ordered Taj Mahal to be built in honor of his wife Mumtaz as you sure know it.

Any way, why there were many nonmuslims in a state ruled by such a barbaric people?

You bet your life that Abdulhamid, Talaat and the beasts before them asked the same question and we know the answer their sick brains produced...

One of the contributors claims that the Nomadic Barbarians required talented people to rule a country since it was new for them,

History, not "one of the contributors", asserts that Turks disdained work. They looked down upon people who worked. It was below them to work. A Turk was a soldier. The only "honorable" occupation for a Turk was that of being in the military. As opposed to kids everywhere who want to become doctors, engineers, scientists, pilots, novelists, directors, etc. when they grow up, the Ottoman offspring wished to be soldiers, soldiers, soldiers, soldiers, soldiers, soldiers, etc.

that’s to say they needed them. This claim is half true....

It's a historic fact that they couldn't build a minaret without them let alone build an "empire", but when they didn't need them anymore they got rid of them in a way human language is incapable of recounting.
Since you love quotes, here is a proverb from the dark Ottoman era for you. I want you to translate it for me, if your attention doesn't accidentally evade it:
Ermeni ustanin elinden geçmeyen caminin minaresi ayakta kalmaz, yikilir.
I doubt that your "democratic" government teaches you this; otherwise you wouldn't recount the "glorious" feats of your all-exterminating ancestors with pride.

even though it is tempting to repeat that the Turks were Barbarian, that’s not true.

Troubled conscience? I sincerely, although cautiously, hope so.

On the contrary, Turks not only had the genius for government before coming to the Asia Minor, (A great deal about the history of Turks and how many states they had in history can be found in wikipedia…they also had the talent for art...

For generations the Duzian family run the money printing, while Dadians were responsible for the gunpowder manufacture (how ironic...) and Balians literally built Constantinople.
Wikipedia? That's your most trustworthy historic source? Read some real books! For a start I suggest you read a research by Sholeh Perinçek where she says:
"The first western style Theatrical performances (in Turkey) were staged in the Armenian schools...
The first actress in Turkey was Arousiak Papazian.
The first musical organization, the Eastern Musical Company, was founded by Tigran Choukhajian who also wrote the first Turkish operetta.
The first orchestra in Istanbul was founded by Grigor Sinanian whose brother Haroutiuon Sinanian wrote the anthem for the Young Turks (how ironic...).
The first sculptor in Turkey is Yervand Oskan.
Edgar Manas, who arranged the "Hymn for independence" for the Turkish Republic founded the first female choir in Turkey.
Marie Louise, the daughter of Bogos Garagash who opened the first florist in Istanbul, is the first female Opera singer in Turkey.
Petros Kerestejian prepared the first (and the only) Turkish etymological dictionary. He translated Karl Marx's Manifesto in Turkish, in1847.
The first Turkish satirical monthly was published in 1852 by Hovsep Vardanian.
The first printing house in Izmir (Smyrna) was founded in 1759 by an Armenian named Markos.
The feminist movement in Turkey was pioneered be Haikanoush Mark.
Marie Pishmishian is the first female mathematician in Turkey.
The first female fighter plane pilot in the world was Ataturk's adopted daughter Sabiha Gökçe".
About 40% of the export, 60% of the import and 80% of the "empire"'s commerce were run by Armenians.
The list is endless and this is just the tip of the iceberg that your grandfathers turned into a mountain of skulls. Turkish gratitude one may say.

[imported_Hellektor]

Quotes, Lies and No Video Tape (or any evidence for that matter) Part Two

Let me return to the discussion. How was being a Christian in a Muslim society in general. I guess not worse than being a peasant in Christian Europe of those days is my answer.

Your "guess" as an answer is just that, and what discussion are you talking about?
To recount the miserable state of the Christians under the Ottoman Tyranny scores of thousand-page volumes will not suffice. I'll try to give you a sketchy picture later. Just think of jizya, haraj, janissary, gyavour, reaya for starters.

Christians were not forced to convert to Islam...Although the Ottomans did not, as a rule, actively seek to convert their Christian subjects to Islam, it is thought that the greater rights afforded to Muslims in the Ottoman Empire motivated Christians to convert to Islam.

Let me get it off my chest so that you won’t bring this sort of ideas that you copied from McFarty type “historians” here anymore:
This is the vilest, most despicable, unfathomably offensive, unimaginably shameful, most sickeningly nauseating, rascally devised, putrid cattle dung, reeking of human-liquefying stench in the whole universe that I have ever heard, and you are offended when I curse and damn your ancestors!
It’s because you don’t know anything about our beliefs and our culture, about Vartan Mamikonian, Vahan Mamikonian, Narekatsi, Mesrop Mashtots, Komitas.
I have personally met Islamized Armenians in Europe and I suggest you go to Western Armenia, to Van, Sassoon, Moush, Kars... and search for Turkified Armenians who still live there, and ask them about how they "converted" to Islam. As an introduction you can read “Seninle Güler Yüregim”, by Kemal Yalçin if you can get hold of a copy.

by the way what is left from the 600 years of Arab rule of Spain

SPAIN WAS A CHRISTIAN EUROPEAN COUNTRY INVADED AND OCCUPIED BY THE ARABS. THEY THREW THEM OUT AND LIBERATED THEIR LAND.

other than mezes, music, hundreds of vocabulary,

Unlike in Turkey where Armenian churches have been bombed and destroyed and the khachkars have been bulldozed.

That’s why there are still different cultures, different languages and different faiths still survived after those many years of ruling. I don’t mean that if was a free open society, with great democracy, but there was tolerance, tolerance much more than the tolerance in Christian Kingdoms of Europe.

"tolerance, tolerance much more than the tolerance... " is what has been lacking all along.

By the way when do you think the Armenians settled in Istanbul, under the Byzantium rule? It was the conqueror Mohammed the second who established the Patriarch of Istanbul.

This has already been answered in the section you claim Turks could do without us, while your great, great tent dwelling grandfathers couldn't keep two bricks standing on one another.

[Tongue]

one point is clear..armenians dont have the answers to our questions!! they even dont want to talk about those points..armenian help to the russians!! invasion of VAN killing muslims of the Van.!!! these are historical facts put on the table with your own documents..any country has the right to self-defence her independence..thats what ottomans did...

I'm sorry but are you blind or something? Or you just read posts you feel like reading? Your ignorance is beyond comprehension.

I've answered that question already. Did you forget how 2,500 Armenians were burnt alive in a Church on the 28th of December 1895 in Urfa? Were Armenians helping Russians then too? Don't even start with this Armenians were killing Muslims BS. The hatred towards Armenians started way before the WWI. Sultan Abdul Hamid ordered mass killings of the Armenian population in 1890s. Were Armenians helping Russians then too? Armenians wanted independence, just like the Greeks and other minorities, but when 'young turks' took power, them wanting independence coincided with 'young turks' long-term dream of "Turkey for Turks". WWI just gave the government an excuse to carry out their plan of getting rid of Armenians.

My two othe posts which you ignored:

Ottoman Empire was FOR Muslim Turks. There were racial distinctions between Turks and non-Turks such as Armenians, Greeks, Kurds, Bulgarians and Slavians, Arabs, etc. There were also religious distinctions between Muslims and Christians, and Christians were named pagan of the Ottoman Empire. In every court of justice, the Muslim was right and the pagan was guilty. Taxes were also too heavy for Christian citizens. In justice between Turks and non-Turks, always Turks were right. And this is in the 19th century, before the Armenian genocide. Almost all the Ottoman kings had the ideology of Pan-Turkism . None of the Christians had security of life. There were no trials or punishments if Turks or Kurds encroached on the life, property and chastity of Armenians or other Christians. Have you heard of "Afvajeh Hamidiyeh"? Those were the groups of Kurds established by the order of Sultan Abdul Hamid to be the gendarmes of Armenians in order to encourage Kurds to kill, plunder and encroach on Armenians! Take the 28th of December 1895 in Urfa for example. Over 2500 Armenian men, women and children, fearing for their lives, had sought refuge in the altar of a church; undeterred Ottoman gendarmes set the church afire and its inhabitants were burnt alive. So can you see how history contradicts your comment? If you were a non-turk nobody would care about you.

So you’re saying Armenians were deported for helping Russians in WWI? The hatred towards Armenians started way before the WWI. As the matter of fact, which I’m sure you know, there was another pogroms of Armenians ordered by Sultan Abdul Hamid II in which hundreds of thousands of Armenians were killed. This was in the 1890s. About 20 years before the WWI even began! Because of this, Armenians at first were actually supportive of the Young Turks government replacing the Sultan’s regime. Since other Christian minorities, including the Greeks, had started to gain independence Armenians became the only major Christian minority in the Ottoman Empire. They also wanted independence but what they wanted was contrary to what the new virulently nationalistic government of Young Turks wanted for Turkey. Their pan-Turkic dream was “Turkey for Turks“. And WWI just gave them the excuse to carry out their plan…. As I said, the hatred started way before the WWI. The World War was just a cover up and an excuse. “Since Armenians are Christians who want independence and we’re fighting their brothers, Russians, we should deport them to the Syrian Desert, Der Zor to eliminate the chance of them turning against us”. Did you know many Armenian men served in the Ottoman army against Russians in WWI! It’s amazing how now, they’re being called predators. The World War was a good opportunity to make the long-time dream of "Turkey for Turks" of Young Turks come true. Anyway… and who exactly were they deporting though? The women, children, and the old. There were hardly any men left to be deported. On the eve of April 24th hundreds of Armenian leaders, doctors, businessmen, etc. were murdered in Istanbul. That’s the day we commemorate every year by the way. This men slaughtering continued for a while, so by the time the deportations started, there were hardly any men left to be deported. So tell me, was the government scared of Armenian women and children rebelling against them?

I don't know why I even bother replying!

[imported_Hellektor]

Infamous Part One

Hi Hellektor,

Hi,

You want some answers? Here is mine for some of your remarks

No, I know all your answers. All I had to do was to read the Injust McFarty "essay" and the infamous 10 point "argument" "proving" that the Turks were in "Anatolia" before the Big Bang and that the Armenians are comers. Although these points don't mention that it was the bad Armenians who committed the Dinosaur Genocide and not the Turks who ruled with tolerance since the dinosaurs could follow their beliefs...

And where did the Armenians came to this land?

If you knew how nations are formed and why some are called "indigenous people" you wouldn’t ask this question. While I leave the study of the formation of ancient nations to you, you should know that the Armenian nation was formed in the region that's called Armenia according to true history. The whole Aryan migration myth doesn't change this fact. People migrate from place to place, so even if such a migration did in fact take place 2600 years ago, it shouldn't be considered as the beginnings of the formation of the Armenian nation. Even so, it's still 1600 years earlier than the Seljuk invasion. And mind you MIGRATION is not equal to INVASION.

I presume you were created in what you call Armenia...

If uttering this sort of offensive garbage doesn’t embarrass you then you confirm my negative views of the Turks.
However, I want you to show me a historic map or a historic document pertaining to the region where Armenia is not called "what" I "call Armenia".

Coming one thousand years ago doesn't entitle you to own the land is the backbone of your claims. Which means that Marash, Zeitun, all of Cilicia is also is not your land as well, right? You came there only a thousand years ago. So your land is what is between Lake Van and Ararat I guess...

I put your own sentence to you “Coming one thousand years ago doesn't entitle you to own the land”. Besides, the Ottomans came in 1299 and Armenia became under the Empire of Plunder in 1512 thus, Invading and pillaging 500 “years ago doesn't entitle you to own the land” in any way.
However, you should know that for the time being the Armenians want the region that was decided upon by the legally binding treaty of Sčvres in August 10, 1920. The representatives of both the Armenian and Ottoman governments put their signatures under it, along with Britain, France, Italy, Japan, Belgium, Greece and the other countries victorious in the WWI.
The treaty of Lausanne imposed on Armenians, totally disregarded their existence. Since Armenia had lost its independence to the Soviets and didn't have a representative, this "treaty" should be shredded after its contents are printed on toilet paper.
Still, Armenians lived in Cilicia before the Cilician Kingdom was created as a result of groups of Armenians migrating out of Armenia proper to escape the barbarities of the Seljuks. Still, Cilician Kingdom was destroyed by Mamluks, the Turks usurped it later. We were there first and you came later on any accounts.

Any way, what I believe is those people who lived in these lands didn't evaporated when the Armenians came, or the persians, or the greeks, or the turks, or the crusaders, or the temor, etc...

When you're done studying the formation of nations you will see that Hitites, Hurries, Hayasa among others were the basis for the formation of the Armenian nation.
The people did not EVAPORATE, they were EXTERMINATED by your grandpas.

Those people are still here. Those genes are still here. It's us. Did you know that there are 200 assyrian words in modern Turkish particularly the ones in economics? The food is here, the clothing is here, the music is here. Whatever you believe, we were here, and will be here. Whoever comes brings something

You first kill the people, rape their women and steal their children, destroy their historic monuments, raze their cities to rubble, burn their manuscripts, torch their houses, schools, churches and shops then you claim their genes. No way! It doesn't work that way. Did you know you killed 500,000 Assyrians the same time you were exterminating the Armenians and the Greeks too?
Did you know there are thousands of Persian and Arabic words in Turkish? Did you know there are thousands of Latin words in the language we use writing these very messages? So what?
You break into a house, you rape and slaughter the inhabitants. Wearing their clothes doesn't make you the owners of their house. Come on, you're not that stupid.

Turks brought the mantı (wanton) or the eriste (noddles) or the yogurt and many other things. Armenians also brought something.

Wanton is used in the context of an unruly, capricious child. I don't know what you mean by that. The last time I heard, noodles were invented by the Chinese. Since you are offended when you're called Mongols, then I don't know what's Chinese noodles got to do with Turks?
All I know and all the world knows: Turks brought death and destruction ever since they appeared west side of the Caspian.

As I said this is our land and will be ours.

How typically Turkish...
I have dealt with this in the short "story" a couple of messages ago, however you should know that history is a continuum and these are still the very early days. We've seen them all come and go. Great "empires" all turned to dust. Babylonians, Assyrians, Persians, Romans, Greeks, Arabs, Turks, Mongols, Czarist and Soviet Russians... they all invaded, destroyed, taxed, subdued, enslaved, used and abused Armenia. They split it between themselves, cut it to pieces, "founded" bogus countries on its territory but "Whatever you believe, we were here, and will be here". "As I said this is our land and will be ours." Ararat cannot be chained forever and barbed wire cannot separate it from its legitimate people.

Yes Stalin was evil. And Armenia was part of USSR, and had members in the Soviet parliament, what were there reaction to Stalin was my question if you skipped it?

I'm sure you are not this stupid. So why are you spewing rubbish that even someone with the IQ of a chimpanzee wouldn't produce?
ARMENIA WAS UNDER SOVIET OCCUPATION. It was not a choice. Why don't you ask this question to your own kin, Kazakhs, Uzbeks, Kyrgyz, Tatars, Mongols, "Azeris" and the rest? Why don't you put the question to your dear friends the Georgians, Stalin the psychopathic killer of 20 million and Beria his accomplice being the legitimate "sons" of that nation? You really amaze me sometimes.
And of all people you should be grateful to Bolsheviks for artificially creating the Frankenstein monster north of the Arax River as an extension to the Ottoman Tyranny and you should be even more grateful to Stalin who chopped Armenia into pieces by forcefully annexing Nakhijevan to the fictitious country to provide a border with its big sibling, and Artsakh the last bastion of Armenian statehood, to bring about the annihilation of Armenia sooner.
You should be grateful to Bolsheviks for bringing civilization, literacy and modernity to the nomadic peoples of Central Asia. We didn't need that and we suffered the most.
You should show some gratitude to the Bolsheviks who “fooled” by Kemal handed the liberated provinces of Kars and Ardahan to you. In a way the Bolsheviks brought Armenians more harm than the Turks.

[imported_Hellektor]

Infamous Part Two

So what do you mean? It would be more honorable if the Armenians stood up and died on their feet rather than live on their knees. Just kidding, I don't think this is an excuse for such an event. So the NAZI officers were also affraid of Hitler, does that clean them. Think the other way around, if the Turks did what you did in WWII, what would be your reaction?

You didn't get or didn't want to get the point. Your grandpas, not having been able to exterminate the Armenians in WWI, took their chances to do so in WWII, using that lunatic, abused-child-turned-mass-murderer Hitler, by calling the Armenians Semitic. This in itself is a proof that:
I. The Armenian Genocide did not start and did not end in 1915.
II. The Armenian Genocide was a diabolically state-planned conspiracy.
III. Therefore the Armenian Genocide did indeed happen.
I'd really LOVE to know how many ardent Neo Nazis have ever heard the word "Armenian" let alone of this "infamous" battalion!
The "infamous" (in fact totally insignificant and unknown) Armenian handful of soldiers in German army did not participate in any mission. BTW, if they had refused to join the army of the country they lived in, wouldn't you call them "coward, backstabbers siding with the Russians" Oh COME ON, give me a phuking break!

By the way, I do agree that Armenian's are really not part of the crime against the Jews, if so their part is subtle not more than the France.

If you don't take this back, I'll conclude that what I think of Turks is indeed the concrete, unalterable truth. So you'd better surprise me.
Since we're talking battalions and regiments, how about the Armenian army units who fought against the Nazis alongside the USSR army?
What do you have to say about the thousand upon thousands of casualties (dead or injured) Armenians suffered fighting a war that wasn't even theirs?
Do you care to mention the partisan Armenian fighters in France and other European countries who gave their lives to flush Hitler down the drain of history and to send his ideology to hell?

Since you love quotes and numbers, how about taking the 1 out of the "world famous" 819 battalion and talking about the "infamous" 89th Armenian army division that cut 3700 kilometers, liberated 900 areas, 7333 of its soldiers received medals and distinctions, 9 became Soviet Heroes. They even reached Berlin.

Or the "infamous" 76th division who crossed 7000 kilometers, liberated 600 areas, gave 21 Soviet Heroes. Or the "infamous" 390th or the "infamous" 261st or the "infamous" 409th or the "infamous" 408th...
They fought on all the fronts in the Caucasus, Crimea, Moscow, Odessa, Leningrad, Stalingrad, Japan, etc.

How about mentioning for the sake of objectivity that 103 Armenians became Soviet Heroes, 23 were knighted with the award of Glory, 70,000 received awards and medals.
There were about 60 Armenian generals in the ranks of the Soviet army commanders, among who General Baghramian (later became Soviet Marshal, repeatedly Soviet Hero and army commander), Admiral Isakov (Khanferiants), Gen. Babajanian (later field marshal of armored division), Gen. Barseghov, Gen. Galajev, Gen. Martirossian, Gen. Karapetian, Gen. Toumanian and others.

I wonder how many great soldiers the brave Turks gave in WWII.
I'd like to know how many “Azeri” noses bled during WWII.
I'd like to know the name of a Turkish solder (of whichever variety) from WWII, who is worthy of kissing the ground Marshal Baghramian's horse dropped its dung.
I'm curious to know what Jews have done for us lately.
They refuse to recognize the Armenian Genocide.
The rascal Perez shamelessly denigrated the Armenian Genocide by saying that it doesn't compare to their suffering, forgetting that:
I. The Armenians were slaughtered in their own homeland.
II. The Armenian Genocide was a total success.
III. Hitler had the "decency" to gas the Jews before burning them while the Turks raped the Armenians and roasted them alive in the desert.
IV. The Holocaust is recognized, the perpetrators are punished, victims are compensated while the masters of the Armenian Genocide run free.
V. No matter whatever they say, we were there first.
They arm the blood thirstiest of our enemies. The Jewish lobby doesn’t spare a dime and doesn't think about economizing when it comes to blocking the American Congress from passing a resolution on the Armenian Genocide.
Knowing that had the Armenian Genocide been prevented or its perpetrator punished, you bet your life that the Holocaust would never have happened.

These were not all blood thirsty, man eating, etc. as you have called them. Furhter more you can tell the same things for Alexander the great, Darius, Charlemagne, all of the crusaders, Hernan Cortez..

Whatever you do, leave Darius out of it, and I don't give a damn about Alexander the xxxxxx. He burned the magnificent Persepolis and I hate him eternally for that. I’m happy he died at 30 and didn’t enjoy his “glory”.

From your post, emphasis is mine:

Chingiz: …"Nobody would touch a caravan in silk road even if there were nobody to guard it... An Arabic historian later critisizes this comments and tells that "This is really true, since nobody has survived in Central Asia to attack that caravan"…

Temur: One of the most amazing warriers in history…he destroyed many major Muslim cities such as Bagdad…he once come to a point to destroy the Ottomans in 1402 in Ankara War.

Hulagu…was dispatched by his brother Mongke in 1255 to accomplish the destruction of the remaining Muslim states in southwestern Asia. First, the subjugation of the Lurs, a people of southern Iran; second, the destruction of the sect of the Assassins; third, the destruction of the Abbasid caliphate; and lastly, the destruction of the Ayyubid states in Syria and the Mamluk state in Egypt.…Hulagu easily destroyed the Lurs, and his reputation so frightened the Assassins that they surrendered their impregnable fortress of Alamut to him without a fight

Death, Destruction, Subjugation, Terror that’s what I’m talking about.

Abdulhamid : Some loves some hates. I don't think he ever raped and eat man. But who knows?

If any body loves a beast who massacred hundreds of thousands of Armenians then the word love needs to be redefined.

Talaat: Was killed by an Armenian, right?

It killed millions of Armenians and you have the guts to consider it a creature worthy of the gift of life? If one could bring a dead beast back to life I would love to give it a million slow deaths.

[imported_Hellektor]

Notorious (Infamous Part Three)

Kemal: Give me a single semi objective reference which says that he is " blood thirsty, man eating, rape crazy, child stealing, cities to cinders razing, mass murdering genocidal maniacs. "…

Winston Churchill paid tribute to Ataturk as "a great hero". To John F. Kennedy, he was "one of the great figures of our century"; to Ronald Reagan, "a towering figure". Prime Minister David Ben Gurion, a founder of Israel, said: "I know of no greater statesman."...

Anglo Saxons, Jews and Turks always on each other’s side…whatever said by whoever is worthless to me because he trod the same genocidal path of his predecessors, making you responsible for the Armenian Genocide.

“5/19/1919 Mustafa Kemal lands at Samsun on assignment from the Ministry of War and the Grand Vizier in Constantinople as inspector-general of central Anatolia. Kemal begins organizing new Turkish armies to oppose the Allies. Former Ittihadist leaders join forces with Kemal.
5/28/1919 On the first anniversary of independence, the Republic of Armenia declares the unification of Caucasian and Turkish Armenia.
6/10/1919 Talaat, Enver, Jemal, and Dr. Nazim, charged with war crimes by the Turkish court martial, are condemned to death in absentia.
7/1/1919 The Constantinople branch of the Ittihad Party plans to send Javid, Dr. Adnan, and his wife Halide Hanum, as their delegates to the Congress convened in Sivas by Mustafa Kemal. To escape trial for war crimes, Javid had been in hiding in Turkey for eight months following the Armistice.
8/3/1919 The trial on the Kharput massacres begins. Halil Pasha is heard as a witness. Evidence is introduced revealing that Behaeddin Shakir used two separate ciphers, one for use with the Sublime Porte, the other for use with the War Ministry.
8/13/1919 Halil Pasha and Kuchuk Talaat, both accused war criminals, escape from Constantinople to join Kemal's forces.
11/2/1919 Jelal Bey (the former governor-general of Aleppo Province until May 1915, when he had resigned in protest against the order to exterminate the Armenians, whereupon he had been transported to Konia (Konya), where he had remained in office until the end of 1916) was appointed Governor-general of Aleppo Province again.
12/1/1919 Francois Georges-Picot, former French High Commissioner in Syria, and Mustafa Kemal hold a secret meeting in Sivas concerning the status of Cilicia. Kemal demands that the French Army including the Armenian volunteer forces serving with it be withdrawn. Picot agrees, leaving defenseless the Armenian survivors in Cilicia, who had returned home from their ordeals in the desert. (Why you never complain to Chirac about this?)
1/19/1920 The Allies formally recognize the independence of Armenia.
1/19/1920 Tried in Constantinople in absentia, Behaeddin Shakir is sentenced to death and Dr. Nazim to fifteen years hard labor.
1920
1/21/1920 Turkish Nationalist forces affiliated with Mustafa Kemal attack Marash.
2/5/1920 10,000 Armenians are massacred in Marash.
4/1/1920 The Ittihadists distribute relief funds to party members in hiding in Turkey accused of crimes and to those who had fled to foreign countries.
4/22/1920 The United States of America officially recognizes the Independent Republic of Armenia.
4/23/1920 The Ottoman government in Constantinople announces that it will seek a new review by higher judicial bodies of the sentences against those tried by the courts martial.
4/25/1920 United States President Woodrow Wilson receives an invitation from the San Remo Conference to determine the borders of Armenia.
5/1/1920 The French and Turkish Nationalists agree to an armistice.
6/22/1920 Jemal Oguz, the murderer of the poet Daniel Varoujan and other Armenian intellectuals, escapes from custody with the assistance of the Military Governor of Constantinople.
6/29/1920 Five war criminals tried for the massacres in Erzinjan, all of whom had conveniently escaped from custody, are sentenced in absentia.
8/5/1920 The court martial condemns to death Nusret, vice-governor of Bayburt District.
8/10/1920 The Treaty of Sčvres is signed. According to articles 226, 227, 228, 229, 230 pertaining to the massacres, the Turkish government promises to hand over all documents and any persons requested by the Allies. Articles 88 and 89 recognize Armenia as a free and independent state.
8/15/1920 The Turkish Nationalist and Bolshevik forces form an alliance (where’s your gratitude?)
11/22/1920 President Woodrow Wilson presents his delineation of the borders of Armenia. . A week later Armenia is partitioned by Turkish Nationalist forces and Sovietized by Russian Bolsheviks.
11/25/1920 Of 10,000 Armenians living in Hadjin (Hajen), only 480 survive a massacre by Turkish Nationalist forces.
12/30/1920 The trial on the massacres in Mosul begins.
1/3/1921 An acquittal is handed down for those accused of the massacre in Adrianople (Edirne).
1921
1/18/1921 The Ottoman government abolishes the courts martial.
1/20/1921 The Turkish Nationalist Pact demands the inclusion of Armenia, Smyrna, and Thrace in Turkish territory.
1/21/1921 The trial on Erzerum massacres is reviewed by a new and higher court.
1/21/1921 Naim Jevad, an accused war criminal, is sent by Enver as an envoy from Moscow to Constantinople.
2/8/1921 Mustafa Pasha, presiding judge of the court martial which had condemned Nusret to death on August 5, 1920, was acquitted of the charge of having joined in a conspiracy against the government after six months of imprisonment and a trial. The trial signals the beginning of the reversal of the policy on bringing the Ittihadists to justice.
2/11/1921 After a ten-months siege, Aintab capitulates to Turkish Nationalist forces.
2/17/1921 The trial on the Keghi massacres is held.
2/18/1921 Some of the war criminals are acquitted.
2/24/1921 The investigation of the Der-el-Zor (Deir el-Zor) massacres begins.
3/10/1921 The investigation of the Der-el-Zor (Deir el-Zor) massacres continues.
3/15/1921 Talaat is assassinated in Berlin by an Armenian student, Soghomon Tehlirian. Talaat had been condemned to death by the Turkish court martial on July 11, 1919. (In 1943, the Turkish government removed the remains of Talaat from Nazi Germany and enshrined them with great ceremony on Liberty Hill in Constantinople.)
6/1/1921 The German Foreign Office obstructs the former German Consul at Aleppo, Rossler, from testifying in the Berlin court trying Talaat's assassin.
6/2/1921 Tehlirian's trial is held in Berlin.
6/3/1921 Tehlirian is acquitted.
12/6/1921 Said Halim is assassinated in Rome.
4/7/1922 Jemal Azmi, the governor-general of Trebizond during the massacres, and Behaeddin Shakir are assassinated in Berlin.
1922
7/25/1922 Jemal Pasha, the former Minister of the Marine and the Fifth Army commander in Syria, is assassinated in Tiflis (Tbilisi).
8/26/1922 Anarchy spreads in Smyrna as the Turks press in on the city.
9/9/1922 The advance guard of the Turkish Army enters Smyrna and pillages Armenian and Greek homes and stores. Armenians and Greeks are killed in the thousands. Religious institutions, including the Armenian Prelacy in Smyrna, are ransacked.
9/13/1922 The burning of Smyrna by the Turks. Within 24 hours, 50,000 houses, 24 churches, 28 schools, 5 consulates, 7 clubs, 5 banks, and an unknown number of stores and warehouses are destroyed.
11/20/1922 The first Lausanne Conference is convened.
2/4/1923 The Lausanne Conference deadlocks over the Armenian Question.
1923
4/23/1923 The second Lausanne Conference is convened.
7/24/1923 Treaty of Lausanne signed by Turkey and the Allies excludes all mention of Armenia or the Armenians. The new Turkish Nationalist state is extended international recognition. The Ottoman Empire goes out of existence.
8/23/1923 The Turkish Nationalist congress, known as the Grand National Assembly, meeting in Ankara ratifies the Lausanne Treaty. The Allies begin to evacuate the following day from all places in Turkey that had been occupied in accordance with the terms of the Armistice of October 30, 1918.
10/29/1923 The Republic of Turkey is proclaimed by the Turkish Grand National Assembly with Mustafa Kemal as its President.”