Turkey's challenge to the Armenians

[imported_Hellektor]

Smear your racist crap on yourself

I really had decided not to heed this ignoramus but I had to deal with his Turk dung throwing for a last time.
Quoting selectively from my post where I say:

"all of the offsprings of" Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians "are now" Muslims "and speak" Turkish. Sure, this will escape your selective attention but "Did it ever occur to you" how on earth hordes of the nomadic horsemen who numbered several tens of thousands in 1299, now count about 70 million (and some), and the indigenous people are almost totally exterminated? "Did it ever occur to you" or did you ever wonder how your far eastern features have changed in so short a time and the majority of Turks don't resemble their Turkmen, Uzbek and Tatar kin?
At least the Invaders of the Americas had the "dignity" not to base their Empire on RAPE. It is so that the majority of the descendants of the European conquerors of the continent have still preserved their European features after 500 years.

This blockhead cries:

word of the day!! hellector is a real racist and fanatic christian...what a joke!!

You stupid ignorant weasel, when a word is put in quotations (here “dignity”) it means that it’s intended ironically.
By this I meant that although they were not much better than the Turks, they had some "humanity" not to build their empire, i.e. increase their own population, by raping the locals and stealing their genes, unlike the Turks who built theirs by raping the locals. Got it, you moron?

In a previous post I say:

Let me tell you straight that as far as it goes for us non-Western Europeans, race is not an issue.
Racism is a strictly Western European thing and comes from the fear of becoming darker in outward features, period.

With your selective quoting this has certainly “evaded” your attention.
And I have to disappoint you, you hater of Christians, I’m not a Christian and I don’t believe in god because if god existed, he would not have created the Turk.
I’m telling you, your childish stupid posts will be ignored henceforth, so shut the **** up, get the **** out and eat **** and die.

[imported_Hellektor]

Kemal,

I'll get back to you in a couple of days.
ALL the answers to your questions are already there in my posts but I'll give it another try.
Meanwhile I want you to know that I think your perception of right or wrong is a little bit fuzzy.
With every sentence you reflect the official revisionist view of your government that has been fed into your perceptive brains since childhood. The total lack of sensitivity and remorse, or at least understanding of others' suffering, also strengthens our view of the Turks. I don't think I can do anything to make you see the reality objectively.
I know you will put this back to me so don't, because it doesn't do any good.
One thing however: no matter how many times I tell you not to quote me selectively, you still do that, and you don't say to which statement I had directed the let's say not PC remark.
Another thing: you did misunderstand me when I was trying to make you understand that I really wanted a sincere dialog.

Till later

[imported_Hellektor]

Thank you tonguedepressor

The offensive nickname allows one to presume that “tonguedepressor” is Turkish.
However, the article “tonguedepressor” has posted is actually very beneficial.
Thank you “tonguedepressor”, for having posted this article, I recommend all the Turks who come to this forum to read it.
In case “tonguedepressor” decides to delete it, I reproduce it below:

An Interesting Article Unveiling the Real Armenian Intentions...

The Armenian Land Question--Misunderstood Terrain

By David B. Boyajian

Geography, someone once said, is destiny. If so, the present geography
of Armenia poses major challenges for its future.

Small and landlocked, Armenia is outflanked by Turkey to the west and
Azerbaijan to the east. To the north, unreliable Georgia controls
Armenia's routes to the Black Sea and Russia. To the south, thankfully,
lies friendly Iran. Unfortunately, the Iranian provinces just to
Armenia's south contain millions of Azeris who might someday blockade
Armenia by forming an autonomous pan-Turkic corridor from Turkey to
Azerbaijan.

To endure and prosper, Armenia must somehow break out of its
geographical straightjacket by reclaiming the lands of historical
Western Armenia, which, as we know, lie mostly within what is now
called eastern Turkey.

That territory was the primary site of the 1915-1923 Genocide, and much
of it was to be incorporated into the Armenian Republic in 1920 by the
Treaty of Sevres, which Turkey signed but later renounced. Perhaps four
times the size of the current Republic of Armenia, the treaty territory
constitutes about 15 percent of present-day Turkey. Significantly, it
included a coastline on the Black Sea.

Why Land?

Today that coastline would provide Armenia with a direct sea route to
Europe and Russia. Georgia would lose the potential to deny Armenia
access to much of the outside world, and Armenia would be less
vulnerable to a Turkish land blockade. Armenia's economy and national
security would be strengthened.

Eventually Armenia might develop an ocean-going navy, including
submarines that could endow the country with a stealthy, survivable
defense capability.

Present-day Armenia with its limited, rocky soil has trouble feeding
itself. Regaining its well-irrigated, traditional breadbasket in
Western Armenia would clearly be beneficial.

Recouping territory is also simple justice, restoring what Turks took
from Armenians in the carnage of 1915 and by centuries of massacre,
deportation, confiscation, onerous taxation, abduction, rape, and
forced Islamization.

Says political scientist Khatchik Der Ghougassian, Turkey in 1915
"intended to redefine the geopolitical situation by eliminating
Armenians from Asia Minor. Thus, a response to the Genocide must
deprive Turkey of the geopolitical map it made possible by committing
genocide."

Additionally, Turkey has come to believe that it can get away with
killing huge numbers of Armenians and seizing their land. It bodes ill
for Armenia's future if Turkey is not made to unlearn that lesson.

But there are misconceptions about how and when Armenia can regain
territory.

Regaining Territory

Contrary to what some may think, no serious Armenian analyst has ever
suggested that Armenia can march over the Turkish border next week and
retake what rightfully belongs to it. Armenian land can be resettled
only in the long term, perhaps decades from now.

The most plausible scenario is war, unfortunately, though not
necessarily between Armenia and Turkey.

Instability breeds war, and there are few regions more unstable than
eastern Turkey where, for instance, on and off warfare between Kurds
and the central government has taken place for centuries. Though the
most recent war ended in 1999, some Kurdish groups (Pkk/Hadek/Kongra-
Gel) just announced a resumption of that conflict.

Future military cooperation between Armenians and Kurds, perhaps with
Russian assistance, and a subsequent division of the spoils--even if
less than Armenians would like--is a possibility.

Also possible is a conflict between Turkey and Russia, who have fought
at least eight wars in the last three centuries. Some of the
battlegrounds were in eastern Turkey. During World War I, for instance,
the Russian Army advanced deep into the Western Armenian heartland.
Only the Russian Revolution brought about a withdrawal. A similar
scenario, with Armenia itself possibly retaking some territory, cannot
be ruled out.

Neither should one underestimate the ability of Armenians themselves to
retake land. Against all odds, Armenians not only won the battle for
Karabagh in 1993, but also captured a buffer zone of about 2,000 square
miles within what is now Azerbaijan, where comparatively few Armenians
lived at the time.

Currently, the West and Turkey's only route into Azerbaijan and the
Caspian region that avoids their Russian and Iranian adversaries is
through unstable Georgia. Were Georgia to become further destabilized,
Armenia would, in theory, possess considerable leverage as the only
remaining route. Might some land concessions then be offered Armenia in
return for its cooperation?

Resettlement Issue

Another misconception is that Armenians could never repopulate Western
Armenia since surviving among its several million Turks and Kurds would
be unrealistic. Again, no serious analyst has ever suggested, nor would
Armenians consider, repopulating territory while it remained under
Turkish control. Armenia or a friendly power would need to administer
the territory for it to be safe for resettlement.

What about the Turks, Kurds, and others, many of part Armenian descent,
who now occupy homes, property, farms, and towns in eastern Turkey that
90 years ago were Armenian? Admittedly, the question has no simple
answer.

There are, however, many precedents for large-scale population
movements. For example:

. Azerbaijan's attack on Karabagh more than a decade ago led hundreds
of thousands of Azeris in Armenia and Armenians in Azerbaijan to flee
in opposite directions. This was a tragedy, yet a peace accord may
someday allow many of these people to return to their homes or be
compensated.

. After their war ended in 1922, Greece and Turkey "exchanged" 1.5
million people--most Greeks in Turkey were sent to Greece, while lesser
numbers of Turks in Greece returned to Turkey.

. Kurds are currently repopulating districts in northern Iraq from
which the former regime had removed them, though not always in ways
that are fair to the present Arab residents.

. The Council of Europe is demanding that as many as 100,000 Meshket
Turks, whom Stalin deported from Georgia to Central Asia, be settled
near Armenians in Georgia's Javakhk region. Turks deserve to be
resettled, but not Armenians?

No one underestimates the difficulties. Even in 1920, the Sevres Treaty
in hand, the destitute survivors of the Genocide and the impoverished
Armenian Republic would have encountered difficulty in returning to and
administering their land. Indeed, Turkey confiscated Armenian property
and nearly eradicated Armenians in 1915 precisely to make it hard for
the survivors and other Armenians to ever return.

To totally dismiss the goal of Armenian resettlement is, therefore, to
reward Turkey for having created the problem in the first place.
Ultimately, the criminal, not the victim, bears responsibility for
setting things right.

Armenians do not, of course, wish hardship on others. Still, Armenia
deserves a measure of justice and security. If Turkey wants to talk
about that, Armenians have always been willing to sit down at the
table.

The Future

Admittedly, just holding onto Armenia and Karabagh now is difficult,
especially in view of the menacing Turkish-Georgian-Azeri axis backed
by the US. Frankly, it is even conceivable that Turkey, in its ongoing
drive into the Caucasus and Central Asia, will someday overrun a piece
of Armenia before the latter gets even one inch of its territory back.

Armenia's present state of affairs does not, however, preclude us from
considering how best to address the land issue in the future.

Some Armenians have, unfortunately, convinced themselves that even
mentioning the land issue is too provocative. As if the Genocide and
subsequent land theft were not themselves the ultimate provocations.

Remember, too, that Turkey--a relative newcomer to the region,
incidentally, and nowhere near as old as the Armenian nation--is itself
beset by political and economic problems and nearly surrounded by less
than friendly nations including Greece, Cyprus, Iran, Russia, and
others.

Just as few foresaw the independence of Armenia and the disintegration
of the Soviet Union, no one can predict whether or how the land issue
will be resolved.

Ottoman Turkey has, however, been shrinking steadily for hundreds of
years. Moreover, as it occupies Armenian territory and rules over
Kurds, Turkey can still be regarded as an empire. Be they Roman,
Byzantine, British, or Soviet, empires inevitably contract and fall.

[Tongue]

American history of bloodshed spans from the time of the American Indians until the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki in 1945. (God knows what history books will write about the U.S occupition of Iraq in 50 years from now). French history of barbarism also dates back to the genocidal suppression of uprisings in French Guyana in 1800s and continues until 1960s in form of massacres in Algeria. Any regrets, recognition, remorse? No!

Forget other countries... even between Armenia and Turkey, Armenia has evidence and Turkey doesn't. Tonguedepressor's (nice name by the way!) article pretty much sums up the reason why Turkey is scared of genocide recognition. The fear of having to compensate for the past is what keeps Turkey from recognizing the genocide.

[Tongue]

So Tongue, the real story can not be understood until the Ottoman archives are examined.

What archives?

Armenians have to face their own history, their own hisotry of massacre of Caucucian Muslims in early 1900s and in early 1910s long before 1915. We always talk about Ottoman Armenians, but ignore caucusian Armenians sided with the Russians long before the Russian invasions to eastern Anatolia.

Here comes the sided with Russia/killing muslims crap again. Why don't you read some of the previous posts and my replies to them before you repeat the same nonsense?

And it is time to Armenians to recognize that they carried the Young Turk regime to Power. Most Turks do hate the Young Turks.

I'm glad to hear that.

[Tongue]

This points out why Ottomans were suspicous about Armenians.

Ottomans were never suspicious about Armenians. Armenians wanted independence, just like the Greeks, Romanians, Serbs and other minorities. Armenians started calling form independence. Calling for an end to Ottoman's discriminatory practices (heavy taxes on them only because they were Christians-does it ring a bell?). That's when Sultan's regime started mass killings of Armenians. You want independence? You shall die! We have the ideology of pan-turkism! You either pay heavy taxes, don't vote, and don't ask for independence or you ask for a reform and die. This was in the 1890s dear, so don't give me the famous illiterate response of "Armenians were helping Russians in WWI".

[imported_Hellektor]

Highly recommended to refresh your memories Part One

Just to refresh the minds of those who forget, here are samples of what the earliest ancestors of the Turks, the Seljuks did to us (and never stopped doing) since the ill day they set hoof in our unfortunate land.
Reading this, one recalls the eyewitness and survivor accounts of the Armenian Genocide: 1895 to 1923, the Sumgait, Baku, Gandzak, etc. massacres, and all the rest in between they did to us the last thousand years.

Aristakes Lastivertsi History

Reading these passages sends shivers down the spines of a normal human being. I don’t know how it makes you feel, if it doesn’t give rise to repulsion then I don’t know to which species of living creatures you belong to.
The thing is, you can change the name Seljuk with Mongol, Tatar, Ottoman, Turk and “Azeri” and update the dates, the following will still apply.
Being religious and not being able to find the logic behind the Seljuk bestiality, he blames the people for having been sinful and considers the calamity as a punishment from god. Of course, I have only quoted the historic facts he witnessed and recorded, I leave his religious opinion to himself. The whole book can be viewed on the Robert Bedrosian (the translator’s) website. emphasis is mine. (Hellektor)

Regarding the Destruction which Took Place in the Basen District and on the Mountain called Smbat's Mountain

In the same year, the gate of Heaven's wrath opened upon our land. Numerous troops moved forth from T'urk'astan, Their horses were as fleet as eagles [g64], with hooves as solid as rock. Well girded, their bows were taut, their arrows sharp, and the laces of their shoes were never untied [i.e., they were always on the move]. Having arrived in the district of Vaspurakan, they pounced upon the Christians as insatiably hungry wolves devour their food. Coming as far as the Basen district and as far as the great estate called Vagharshawan they demolished and polluted twenty-four districts with sword, fire, and captive-taking. This narration deserves many piteous laments and tears. They sped like lions, and like lion cubs, they mercilessly threw the corpses of many people to the carnivorous beasts [65] and birds.

One [body, the sun], awakens men to work, while the other [luminary, the moon], gives boldness to the wild beasts. But now our noontime became eclipsed and was transformed into night. That bestial pagan people which had long since been growling in its lairs, as the prophet says, sought [73] their food from the flock of God. When our day [g70] turned into night, they came forth and spread over the face of the earth. They found much prey and were satiated with food, and saved the left-overs for their children, [enough] for many years. Now although there was plenty of prey for them everywhere, for the country before them was like a lush garden full of fruit, nonetheless this was more so in the Mananaghi district, on the mountain named Smbatay Berd (Smbat's Fortress), for it was there that a countless multitude of fugitives had assembled [with] an inestimable number of animals. The infidels attacked, broke into the stronhold, and put everyone to the sword.

One could observe there a pitiful spectacle, and one worthy of much lamentation. For some whom they grabbed hold of were dispatched with the sword; some who had secured themselves into craggy places [the Saljuqs] killed with arrows; many who had gone up to a cave were crushed to death by huge rocks [rolled on them], and their corpses tumbled down upon each other resembling heaps of wood-shavings [left] by a wood-cutter, filling the valley in front [of the mountain]. Alas and alack [74] the very bitter light of that day! Brave men armed, and glowering with rage, assembled, while the cowards swooned, women took leave of their senses, and youths scoffed [at the danger]. Yet they could find no way out, for the enemy had blockaded them on all sides. No love for dear ones there, no lament for friends. Father forgot tenderness for his children, mother [forgot] love for her newborn infants. The newly-wed woman could not recall her love for her bridegroom, nor did the man think to caress the wife he longed for. Hymns of the mass ceased [g71] in the mouths of the priests, and the recital of psalms stopped on the lips of the psalmists. Everyone without exception was seized with trembling and dread. Because of the severe crisis, many pregnant women aborted their babies. [The Saljuqs] surrounded that mountain for the entire day, like hunters with nets, until they weakened and were exhausted.

Now when evening fell, they took their loot, captives, and the booty from the slain, and departed. But they left behind them a scene more pitiful and lamentable than it had been before. The death-agonies were of many types: for some who had fallen [75] [fatally wounded] were still alive. From thirst their tongues had dried up, and with weak and soft voices they sought to quench their thirst, but there was no one to give them drink. Others who were terribly wounded, and could not make sounds, were breathing violently. Others whose throats had been slit but were still alive were emitting gurgling sounds in pain. Yet others, who had been badly wounded, were scraping the ground with their feet and clawing at it with their fingernails. There were others whose appearance was so frightful that the very rocks and other inanimate objects were moved to lamentation and sighing. For when the infidels were removing captives from the mountain, they took the children from their parents' embrace, and threw them to the ground, and [the Saljuqs'] place of encampment was swarming with them. Some [of the children] had died when they fell against rocks. The sides of some of them had torn open and their intestines poured out onto the ground. As for those remaining alive, what ear could bear their crying? Those [children] capable of walking were moving about here and there looking for their mothers, and the mountains reverberated with the loudness of their crying. Those who [76] were [too young to be] steady on their feet, were crying as they crawled along on their knees. Those who were even younger than they, thumped the ground with their feet, and, weakened through crawling they could scarcely breath. With their piteous sounds and unceasing cries they resembled lambs newly separated from their mothers, who, being impatient by nature, angrily struck out this way and that, offending the very air with their bleating and weighing heavily upon the listeners' ears.

Regarding the Merciless Destruction of Arcn

Who can put into writing the diverse and unbelievable disasters that were visited upon our city? It was [here] as was written about the Sodomites: "The sun had risen on the earth, and the Lord rained on Sodom brimstrone and fire, and burned it [Genesis 19.23-24]." So it happened here that when the sun rose on the earth, an impious people, like famished dogs, arrived, surrounded the city, entered, and like reapers [working] in a field, they reaped with their swords until they had snuffed out the city's life. Mercilessly setting fire to the homes and churches wherein refugees [84] had fled, [the Saljuqs] burned them down, considering this a benevolent act...

The weather also was an aid on this destructive day. An extremely severe wind howled, stirring up the fire so much that smoke rose to the sky in thick billows. The flaming columns of fire vanquished the rays of the sun. One could see there a pitiful and terrifying spectacle in the extreme, for the entire city--the bazars, the lanes, and the great chambers--was full of the corpses of the slain. Who can count those burned to death? Those who had escaped from the glittering sword, and taken refuge in houses, were immolated, one and all. As regards the priests, those whom they caught in the churches, they burned to death; those they found outside, they killed and, to insult and disgrace us, put huge hogs [g78] in their arms. The number of priests who died by fire and sword, lords of diocese and church, we found to be more than 150. But as for those who had come from all other lands, and happened to be there, who can count them?
85] Such is your wicked history, oh city, blessed and venerable, full [of good things], renowned among the lands. Raise now your eyes and observe your children led into slavery, your babies hurled mercilessly against rocks, your young people burned by fire, the respect-worthy and glorious elderly folk fallen in the squares, your fresh and prosperous virgins and women fallen in disgrace, led away into slavery on foot...

Let the narration of Arcn's sad history end at this point, for we were unable to record every evil event. Let whoever wants to learn of our omission look in the ruins. We have written the pitiful account of two places, of the mountain and of the city. We have written only about what we saw with our own eyes, and about the wicked things we ourselves experienced. As for the disasters which befell the other districts and cities, who is strong enough [to record them]? Much time and many words would be [86] needed for that. We abbreviated our [account] as much as possible. [g79]

[imported_Hellektor]

Highly recommended to refresh your memories Part Two

Regarding How Terribly the City Called Kars Was Struck

For a long time this city [Kars] had had no experience with evils [warfare] and so [the people] dwelled unconcernedly and without suspicions therein, grown rich with much merchandise acquired by sea and by land. Now during [the festival] of the Revelation of Our Lord, in the evening, when the ranks of the priesthood together with great crowds of the people were celebrating the mass of the day, [singing] with joyous voices, the troops of the infidels unexpectedly attacked. Because the city was without a night-watch, they entered. Putting swords to work, they mercilessly killed everybody, a history meriting much lamentation. It was the custom of the city's men, women, elderly, and youths [each] according [92] to strength and ability, on the Lord's feastdays, to ornament himself or herself with many adornments, such that they resembled spring gardens. When these [people] were thus chanced upon, suddenly the city became filled with sighs and lamentations. Priests were silenced at mass, as were the psalmists [silenced] from singing psalms. The song of blessing stopped on the lips of scribes and boys. There one could have seen a spectacle most pitiable, capable of moving even the stones and inanimate objects to sighs of lament, let alone the rational and living. Well-respected and honorable merchants were wickedly slain, youths and athletes/wrestlers lay stabbed to death in the streets, and the blood-spattered heads of the elderly lay fallen near them. By such deeds was the city stripped of its population. Only the one who managed to enter the stronghold located above the city saved his life. The entire remainder of the day, [the Saljuqs] rummaged through the houses, then set the city on fire. Taking their captives and the city's plunder, they went to their own land.

Regarding the Sultan's Arrival

The year after this [devastation] occurred was [the year] 503 of our [Armenian] era [1054]. Now the [93] same month, and the same date of the month as [the previous year] when [the Saljuqs] took the land captive, and burned Arcn and other cities and awans, that death-breathing, bloodthirsty and murderous beast, the Sultan, advanced [toward us] with countless troops, elephants, carts, horses, women, children, and much preparation. Skipping over Archesh and Berkri, they came and camped near the city called Manazkert in the Apahunik' district, seizing all the extensive places in the fields [i.e., the pasturelands]. [The Sultan] dispatched marauding parties across the face of the land: north as far as the stronghold of the Abkhaz and to the [g84] mountain called Parxar to the base of the Caucasus; west as far as the forests of Chanet'ia; and south as far as the place called Sim mountain. And they seized the entire land as [easily as] reapers working a field.

Who can record the evils which [the Saljuqs] then visited upon the land? Whose mind is able to enumerate them? The entire land was full of corpses--cultivated and uncultivated places, roads and desolate places, caves, craggy spots, pine groves and steep places--and [the Saljuqs] set on fire and polluted all the cultivated places, homes and churches. And the flame of that fire rose higher than [the flame of] the furnace of Babylon. In this way [94] they ruined the entire land, not once but three times, one after the other, until the country was totally devoid of inhabitants and the bellowing of animals ceased.

....

When the enemy attacked, they cut [the citizens] down, not after the fashion of a war, but as though they were slaughtering sheep penned up in a yard. Some [the Saljuqs] seized, brought forward and beheaded with the sword. They died a double death. More bitter than death was the scintillating of swords above them, then the death verdict. Swords in hand they came upon some, fell upon them like beasts, pierced their hearts and killed them instantly. As for the stout and corpulent, they were made to go down on their knees, and their hands were secured down by stakes. Then the skin together with the nails was pulled up on both sides over the forearm and shoulder as far as the tips of the second hand, forcibly removed, and [the Saljuqs] fashioned bowstrings out of them. Oh how bitter this narration is!

The Destruction and Inestimable Ruin of Mesopotamia and Its Cities

Each person thought of some way of escape, to perhaps save himself from the burning Gehenna of rage. Consequently, they fled to the vineyards which surrounded the city, and they concealed themselves under the thick leaves [130] of the vines. The infidels learned about this, searched [the vineyards], and stabbed and killed with lances all [those concealed]. The clusters of grapes were stained with their blood. Later on the surviving dregs [of the city] came forth, located their dead among the vines, and buried them under the earth. Yet their consciences would not allow them to gather or eat those grapes. For they said that those grapes [were filled with] human blood. Now when the infidels were finished killing, they returned to the city and started searching through the houses. If anyone anywhere or in a secret hiding place had concealed his belongings, [the Saljuqs] dug them out with great skill. Then they set the city on fire and burned it down, and then, taking booty and captives, they departed. They dealt [g111] similarly with the surrounding villages and awans, destroying all of them with fire, sword, and slavery until nowhere was anyone left alive to emit even a feeble cry.

The Destruction of the Shahastan City, Melitene

The [Egyptians] demanded as payment from the Israelites golden ornaments and clothing in place of serving them. Yet [the Saljuqs] totally stripped and pillaged whatever we had, even though we had done nothing to them. Alas and alack that unconsolable destruction! There was a double justice in chastising the Egyptians: first, God tried them for the bitter servitude by which they had straitened the Israelites; second, because they worshippcd created beings and not the Creator Who is blessed for eternity. Although we are devoid of good deeds, nonetheless we have the right belief and the tongue of confession. Why should we be punished the way they were? How much more pitiful are we, and [how much more] deserving of lamentation. Oh Lord, Creator, and God, why did You completely reject us, and cause us to be xxxxxled under foot by pagans and make us the object of ridicule and derision by our enemies? Arise and awaken Your might, come and save us, [g114] and requite our neighbors sevenfold!

[The Saljuqs] left a remembrance forever of the unbelievable inequities they occasioned there. They took the young boys and other little children and used them as targets, wickedly piercing and killing them with lances and arrows. Nor did any feelings of pity find their way into their natures. I need not mention the children who were torn from their parents' embrace: the boys were hurled against rocks, while the attractive women and girls who had been reared in comfort were disgraced. Why should I record it? Do you see how unbearable the measure of tribulations are when God withdraws His hand from us?

During the same year, [the Saljuqs] burned down the beautiful residence of the blessed [monastery of] Karapet [the Precursor, John the Baptist] which had been built with great labor by a certain Hrahat, one of the colleagues of Vasak's son, the great Gregory, when he was lord of the country. They also burned the belfry located in front of St. Karapet (which had been built in a gorgeous style to the glory and honor of the great martyr and precursor of Christ), as well as other structures, and the wooden church called St. Gregory. This occurred in the year 507 of our [Armenian] era [1058]. [g118]

How the World Renowned City of Ani was Massacred by the Sword

One could see there the grief and calamity of every age of humankind. For children were ravished from the embraces of their mothers and mercilessly hurled against rocks, while the mothers drenched them with tears and blood. Father and son were slain by the same sword. The elderly, the young, priests and deacons also died by the same sword. The city became filled from one end to the other with bodies of the slain, and [the bodies of the slain] became a road. From the countless multitude of the slain, and from the corpses, that great stream which passed by the city became dyed with blood. Wild and domesticated beasts became the cemetaries [165] of those corpses, for there was no one to cover over the bodies of the slain with the needed earth, no one to bury them...

Resembling the viper, their rage did not let up; resembling the fire, their greed had no bounds. For whatever they proposed regarding us was evil, Their words were full of treachery, Therefore [179] each morning dawned with them effecting yet another evil. Such were all of their plans: to wear out and exhaust us as an old coat, and to efface any memory of us in their minds, so that they would not look and find us alive. No, our cemetaries were to vanish under their feet.

--------------------
The "Great" Seljuk "Empire"... And they want us to respect them, to say only nice things about their grandpaws and not to be bitter. They want us to forget the Armenian Genocide, no they want to "prove" to the world that it was they who were the victims... Not capable of showing a grain of remorse, they are offended by our anger. Touchy brutes one may say! (Hellektor)

[Tongue]

Tongue talk with a Historian that you trust( i mean not lobbyist but true Armenian scholars). Talk with Gerard Libaridian for example. How Christians lived under Ottomans.

Lets see, you mean other than the fact that they didn't have the right to vote? Paid heavy taxes for being Christians? Other than how young Islamic extremists were allowed to stage all those anti-Armenian demonstrations they did? Other than having "Afvajeh Hamidiyeh" forces be gendarmes on Armenians? How Kurds were armed to the extreme by the government and allowed to attack Armenians, take their lands, and commit crimes, and have the crimes be legal? How from 1894 to 1896, Trabzon, Erzinchan, Bitlis, Van, Marash, Urfa, Bayburt, Sasoun, Mush, Diyarbakir, Erzrum, Cilicia, and Angora over 300,000 Armenians were violently massacred? How European governments asked form better treatments of Armenians? Yeah, I'll talk to a historian about everything I mentioned above. You see, these aren't stories, these are FACTS!

I should also mention that there were also big cultural differences between Armenians and Turks. There Majority of Turks were illiterate peasant farmers, and Armenians had always been one of the best-educated communities within the Ottoman Empire. Armenians were the professionals, the businessmen, lawyers, doctors and skilled craftsmen. Turks weren't. Which only adds to the hatred towards Armenians!

[Tongue]

Yes Muslims paid less taxes, but Muslims had to serve in the army where Armenians like other Christians were not have to serve in Army.

Armenians didn't serve in the army? And you're calling ME ignorant?

Have you heard of labor battalions in the Ottoman army and how Armenians served in them? Go do some research and them come back!