Your Greek Friends Stand Beside You!

[Joseph]

urkish sources claiming Turks burnt Smyrna

Falih R?fk? Atay, a Turkish author of national renown is quoted as having lamented that the Turkish army had burnt Smyrna to the ground in the following terms:
Gavur [infidel] ?zmir burned and came to an end with its flames in the darkness and its smoke in daylight. Were those responsible for the fire really the Armenian arsonists as we were told in those days? ... As I have decided to write the truth as far as I know I want to quote a page from the notes I took in those days. ‘The plunderers helped spread the fire ... Why were we burning down ?zmir? Were we afraid that if waterfront konaks, hotels and taverns stayed in place, we would never be able to get rid of the minorities? When the Armenians were being deported in the First World War, we had burned down all the habitable districts and neighbourhoods in Anatolian towns and cities with this very same fear. This does not solely derive from an urge for destruction. There is also some feeling of inferiority in it. It was as if anywhere that resembled Europe was destined to remain Christian and foreign and to be denied to us.[18]
Recently, many Turks have begun to question that nationalist narrative that is taught within their own country. Biray Kolluo?lu K?rl?, a Professor of Sociology, published a paper in 2005 in which he pursues an argument based on the claim that the city was burned by the Turks in an attempt to cleanse the predominantly Christian city in order to make way for a new Muslim and Turkish city, and focuses on an examination of the extensions of this viewpoint on the Turkish nationalist narrative since.[19]
Another work on the subject is the short essay by the historian Professor Re?at Kasaba of Washington University, which briefly goes through on the multiple aspects of the event, without pinpointing clear accusations.[20]

[hitite]

Marjorie Housepian's book should be a very interesting read and we Turks probably did burn down the whole city or part of it, such animals we are.... We probably also burnt down all the small villages and towns along the path of the Greek retreat and killed everybody, Turk and Greek along the way so there was nothning left to build upon what we had taken back.

I see that you are all sorry for the thousands of Turks killed during the Greek occupation and retreat and mourning for the towns and villages burnt down by them. But hey, how much is a dead Turk worth next to a dead Greek or Armenian anyway? How come we dont see any Christian missionaries, American military personnel, and impartial diplomatic officials writing about dead Turks? I guess becuase there werent any dead Turks, or maybe because at the time a Turk or Muslim was not considered human enough. This hypocrisy is sickening.

[Joseph]

PLANS TO ASSASSINATE ARMENIAN AND GREEK PATRIARCHS REVEALED

armradio.am
25.07.2007 16:38

Plans to assassinate Armenian Patriarch Mesrob Mutafyan, Fener Greek
Patriarch Bartholomew and Turkish Jewish businessman Ä°shak Alaton
were found on a computer belonging to Bekir Ozturk, head of the
National Forces Association (Kuvva-i Milliye).

Today's Zaman informs referring to the Gazeteport Internet news portal
that the ultra-nationalist organization could have carried out these
plans during the presidential election if either Prime Minister Recep
Tayyip Erdogan or another Justice and Development Party (AK Party)
member were to have been elected president.

The report said the assassination plans found on Ozturk's computer
were part of the ongoing Umraniye investigation. It was noted that
the public prosecutor's office has demanded an increase in security
measures from the Security General Directorate to protect Mutafyan,
Bartholomew and Alaton.

After finding 27 hand grenades and other explosives in a slum house
in the Umraniye district of Ä°stanbul, the security forces went on to
raid Kuvva-i Milliye offices in Ankara, Konya, Bursa and Balıkesir
over the past week. A total of five people, including Ozturk, have
now been arrested in connection with the investigation.

--Boundary_(ID_ZxYs/yUug2BKggYNfQeq9A)--

[1.5 million]

I see that you are all sorry for the thousands of Turks killed during the Greek occupation and retreat and mourning for the towns and villages burnt down by them. But hey, how much is a dead Turk worth next to a dead Greek or Armenian anyway? How come we dont see any Christian missionaries, American military personnel, and impartial diplomatic officials writing about dead Turks? I guess becuase there werent any dead Turks, or maybe because at the time a Turk or Muslim was not considered human enough. This hypocrisy is sickening.

Yeah just like we cry for all those dead Germans/Nazis in WWII - get real.

[hitite]

Yeah just like we cry for all those dead Germans/Nazis in WWII - get real.

Taking back pillaged towns and villages full of raped or dead Turkish women and children from invading Greeks was the "Greek Genocide"... sorry I forgot. You dont need to cry for them, Turks have long learned to cry for their own dead mate. And we are not keeping count of how many countries will recognize the thousands killed in neighboring countries.

[Joseph]

Taking back pillaged towns and villages full of raped or dead Turkish women and children from invading Greeks was the "Greek Genocide"... sorry I forgot. You dont need to cry for them, Turks have long learned to cry for their own dead mate. And we are not keeping count of how many countries will recognize the thousands killed in neighboring countries.

Though 1.5 states it in a very blunt manner, I agree with the point he is trying to get across.

It is very hard for Armenians to feel any remorse for any Turks that may have been killed before, during, and after WWI. It very much would be like asking Jews to feel remorse for Germans killed in the bombing of Dresden. Whether Greeks massacred Turks or not (they probably did to some degree as revenge for their brothers in Pontus, to re-claim that which was taken from them etc.) it gives us a small measure of reassurce that they got something in return for what they did to us.

If you ask any people that have suffered through genocide, the vast majority, whether Armenian, Tutsi, Dinka, Jewish, Bosnak, etc want their tormentors to have suffered. We are not all Ghandis, that is for sure. We want those that made us suffer to feel the same pain and we want retribution in some degree.

Why should Turks want or expect Armenians to feel sorrow for their dead, sorrow for a people that have massacred and mistreated our own for centuries and then willingly fail to make any apologies or face up to their past and what they have done? Why should we even take into account or feel sorrow for a people that have done such awful things and continue on their fascist way?

[1.5 million]

I have plenty of times expressed my sorrow for all the Turkish and Kurdish peasents and such who suffered not only in Anatolia but in Crete and the Balakns and other places where Turkish overlords were overthrown by occupied peoples and vengence was taken out on those associated with those overlords. Its not right - but it is certainly human nature. Likewise the Greeks who landed in Smyrna and moved in through the (once largely Greek) countryside were witness to devestation experienced by Greeks at the hands of Turkish regular and irregular forces and "patriotic socities" and the like who undertook a campaign in the Aegean areas of Anatolia that resulted in the deaths of nearly 500,000 ethnic Greeks and the expulsion of many more - from their ancestral and then current homes - in 1913 and 1914 - just prior to WWI. So - no - we can never excuse this kind of behavior - but we can certainly understand it (how/why it occurs under these conditions). Furthermore the vast majority of the burning, pillaging and looting occured during the retreat/rout of the Greek forces - where their offivcers/commanders fled before the troops leaving no one in control. These troops - abandoned and upset - took it out on the homes and Turkish people whom they encountered during the retreat. Was it horroble for those people - yes certainly - can we feel sorry and empathy for them - yes of course - however there is certainly a big difference between this sort of thing and the government/Turkish military commander encouraged/sponsored efforts to persecute and displace the Greeks who once lived in the regions and then later to commit genocide against Armenians, Assyrians and Pontic Greeks. In this light the Turks clearly bear the burden of collective guilt and clearly were the original aggressors and the ones who through use of state, political and military power preyed upon innocent civilian populations en mass. Thus - much as with the Germans in WWII - Turks (as a group) cannot expect anyone elses sympathy (even if we do understand the personal human tragedies) - and this situation is only exacerbated when one considers the shamful denial and aggresive avoidance of admission of responsibility and recognition of the truth of what occured. In this environment I and others (Greeks, Armenains, Assyrians and such) have no problem at all telling you to go and F yourself. It really does not go over so well when Turks attempt to make such charges in light of their complete avoidance of their much greater crimes. Yes - can you imagine Germans crying about post-war Jewish retibution...and they even have admitted their crimes. Think about it.

[Gavur]

Marjorie Housepian's book should be a very interesting read and we Turks probably did burn down the whole city or part of it, such animals we are.... We probably also burnt down all the small villages and towns along the path of the Greek retreat and killed everybody, Turk and Greek along the way so there was nothning left to build upon what we had taken back.

Hitite why is that so improbable because your a Turk?

[Gavur]

In any case "War Atrocities" do happen more often then Genocide and is distinctly different then the latter.It is very funny when commiters of Genocide counterargues with alleged war attrocities,its ultimately a continuation of Genocide in a way of "Denial"
prosecution rests.

[Panos26]

My understanding is that the burning of Izmir is unclear.The Armenians seem to forget the fact that our political and military power at the time was very big and even bigger than Turkey's.There is no doubt that the Turks could never apply a genocide towards the Greeks at the time bsc of our military and political might of the era.Attrocities did happen from both sides,but Greece has no real argument against Turkey.They were merely fighting their independence war against Greeks and the Great Powers.
Armenians were not us lucky as the Greeks,unfortunatelly...