Your Greek Friends Stand Beside You!

[Panos26]

I have plenty of times expressed my sorrow for all the Turkish and Kurdish peasents and such who suffered not only in Anatolia but in Crete and the Balakns and other places where Turkish overlords were overthrown by occupied peoples and vengence was taken out on those associated with those overlords. Its not right - but it is certainly human nature. Likewise the Greeks who landed in Smyrna and moved in through the (once largely Greek) countryside were witness to devestation experienced by Greeks at the hands of Turkish regular and irregular forces and "patriotic socities" and the like who undertook a campaign in the Aegean areas of Anatolia that resulted in the deaths of nearly 500,000 ethnic Greeks and the expulsion of many more - from their ancestral and then current homes - in 1913 and 1914 - just prior to WWI. So - no - we can never excuse this kind of behavior - but we can certainly understand it (how/why it occurs under these conditions). Furthermore the vast majority of the burning, pillaging and looting occured during the retreat/rout of the Greek forces - where their offivcers/commanders fled before the troops leaving no one in control. These troops - abandoned and upset - took it out on the homes and Turkish people whom they encountered during the retreat. Was it horroble for those people - yes certainly - can we feel sorry and empathy for them - yes of course - however there is certainly a big difference between this sort of thing and the government/Turkish military commander encouraged/sponsored efforts to persecute and displace the Greeks who once lived in the regions and then later to commit genocide against Armenians, Assyrians and Pontic Greeks. In this light the Turks clearly bear the burden of collective guilt and clearly were the original aggressors and the ones who through use of state, political and military power preyed upon innocent civilian populations en mass. Thus - much as with the Germans in WWII - Turks (as a group) cannot expect anyone elses sympathy (even if we do understand the personal human tragedies) - and this situation is only exacerbated when one considers the shamful denial and aggresive avoidance of admission of responsibility and recognition of the truth of what occured. In this environment I and others (Greeks, Armenains, Assyrians and such) have no problem at all telling you to go and F yourself. It really does not go over so well when Turks attempt to make such charges in light of their complete avoidance of their much greater crimes. Yes - can you imagine Germans crying about post-war Jewish retibution...and they even have admitted their crimes. Think about it.

Where do those numbers of half a million Greeks killed comes from?Or even the Pontic genocide?Greece doesnt have half the arguments the Armenians have.
Turkey claims many many attrocities that the Greeks did to the Turks.The political distribution of power was equally shared between Greece and Turkey at the time...Greece being marginally favoured due to the support of the Great Powers...

[hitite]

Where do those numbers of half a million Greeks killed comes from?Or even the Pontic genocide?Greece doesnt have half the arguments the Armenians have.
Turkey claims many many attrocities that the Greeks did to the Turks.The political distribution of power was equally shared between Greece and Turkey at the time...Greece being marginally favoured due to the support of the Great Powers...

It comes from selective reading claimed to consist of undeniable impartial sources. When Turks are killed its a war crime, when others are killed its Genocide.

1.5: if what happened to the Greeks in the 1920's and before or after was Genocide why do you think Greece does not persue an active policy of Genocide recognition. Is it becaue they have the balls to admit that terrible things happened to everybody back then? Maybe they would also persue recognition if they had not ended up with relatively sizable land or if no more Greeks were left in Greece...Turks most probably did slaughter thousands, maybe millions of Armenians and it probably does amount to Genocide but after almost a century it is just sickening that Armenian activists for international recognition of the Genocide are extremly hesitant to accept that terrible atrocities befell the Turks at the hands of Armenians. Recognition of our dead is not verbalised by any activist or lobbyist which is proof that the whole Armenian Genocide recognition is highly politicised. Some recignition of thousands of Turks killed by Armenians may exist in the depths of the volumes of some Armenian scholars or by some Armenains on the individual level but none on the political level. If you dont admit to something because it does not suit your cause then you have a petty political agenda. So I guess you wouldnt mind any Turk telling you to suck on it as long as your approach does not change.

[Steph]

Where do those numbers of half a million Greeks killed comes from?Or even the Pontic genocide?Greece doesnt have half the arguments the Armenians have.
Turkey claims many many attrocities that the Greeks did to the Turks.The political distribution of power was equally shared between Greece and Turkey at the time...Greece being marginally favoured due to the support of the Great Powers...

Really Panos, most reports of these times support and agree with 1.5's position.

Pontic, Aegean coast, Inner Anatolia and Constantinople, Eastern Thrace, all areas where Greeks were deported from, mostly by that favoured turkish method of forced marches in winter, prey to the guards and local populations.
Most, if not all,men of military age (16-60 probably) had been removed from their communities before and were , at best, held as hostages by the Kemalists.
1.5's numbers concur with histories I've read.

How you believe that there was an equal distribution of political power between Greece and turkey astounds me.
I don't believe Greece had the support of Italy or France at this time, more help from Great Britain, the main driving force of the League of Nations. The ARC and Near East Relief were the main providers from the States.
Again that chap Morgenthau used his humanity and political skills to try to alleviate sufferings on both sides.

Panos, where do you read your history?

[Steph]

It comes from selective reading claimed to consist of undeniable impartial sources. When Turks are killed its a war crime, when others are killed its Genocide.

1.5: if what happened to the Greeks in the 1920's and before or after was Genocide why do you think Greece does not persue an active policy of Genocide recognition. Is it becaue they have the balls to admit that terrible things happened to everybody back then? Maybe they would also persue recognition if they had not ended up with relatively sizable land or if no more Greeks were left in Greece...Turks most probably did slaughter thousands, maybe millions of Armenians and it probably does amount to Genocide but after almost a century it is just sickening that Armenian activists for international recognition of the Genocide are extremly hesitant to accept that terrible atrocities befell the Turks at the hands of Armenians. Recognition of our dead is not verbalised by any activist or lobbyist which is proof that the whole Armenian Genocide recognition is highly politicised. Some recignition of thousands of Turks killed by Armenians may exist in the depths of the volumes of some Armenian scholars or by some Armenains on the individual level but none on the political level. If you dont admit to something because it does not suit your cause then you have a petty political agenda. So I guess you wouldnt mind any Turk telling you to suck on it as long as your approach does not change.

Hittite, your denialist position shines through in this post, but mostly your recent posts in this thread are the typical "spoilt brat" whines of most turks when things don't go their way.
To equate isolated instances of self-defence to the centrally planned and co-ordinated Genocide beggars belief.
I suppose Armenians serving in the Russian Army were responsible by killing turkish soldiers?

[Joseph]

It comes from selective reading claimed to consist of undeniable impartial sources. When Turks are killed its a war crime, when others are killed its Genocide.

1.5: if what happened to the Greeks in the 1920's and before or after was Genocide why do you think Greece does not persue an active policy of Genocide recognition. Is it becaue they have the balls to admit that terrible things happened to everybody back then? Maybe they would also persue recognition if they had not ended up with relatively sizable land or if no more Greeks were left in Greece...Turks most probably did slaughter thousands, maybe millions of Armenians and it probably does amount to Genocide but after almost a century it is just sickening that Armenian activists for international recognition of the Genocide are extremly hesitant to accept that terrible atrocities befell the Turks at the hands of Armenians. Recognition of our dead is not verbalised by any activist or lobbyist which is proof that the whole Armenian Genocide recognition is highly politicised. Some recignition of thousands of Turks killed by Armenians may exist in the depths of the volumes of some Armenian scholars or by some Armenains on the individual level but none on the political level. If you dont admit to something because it does not suit your cause then you have a petty political agenda. So I guess you wouldnt mind any Turk telling you to suck on it as long as your approach does not change.

Yes, from now on Armenians must lament the deaths of the Turks, Tutsis the Hutus, Jews the Germans, Southern Sudanese their Arab overlords, Bosnians the Serbs, etc. That way, everything is fair and nobody's feelings are hurt. We know how Turks are sensitive to criticism and god forbid we should expect them to feel any shame or remorse for what they have done to Armenians, Assyrians and Greeks. Sorry my ancestors had he audacity to bleed on your ancestors yatagans. Sorry my people have the audacity to lament the the loss of their homeland of 4 millenia from which they were cleansed. Sorry it was your ancestors leaders that entered a disastorous war and not ours. For all these things, we should feel shame. We should just dissapear completely so as not to make the Turks feel angry and have to think about that "ugly" chapter of history.

Come on, hitite.

[1.5 million]

Hittite, your denialist position shines through in this post, but mostly your recent posts in this thread are the typical "spoilt brat" whines of most turks when things don't go their way.
To equate isolated instances of self-defence to the centrally planned and co-ordinated Genocide beggars belief.
I suppose Armenians serving in the Russian Army were responsible by killing turkish soldiers?

Exactly - this is what I was going to say until I saw you already said it.

This claim of atrocities commited against Turks by Armenians as some sort of counter to the Armenian Genocide and the prior persecution, massacre and predetory behaviors by the Ottomans and their Kurdish lackys is rather absurd. The Ottoman Empire pursued a policy of deliberate (violent) harrasment and disenfranchisement of the Armenian communities of the East since the late 1800s and early 1900s. They deliberatly sought to wrest these areas from Armenians through various - often violent - and certainly degrading and inhumane pressures. That this might inspire some Armenians to attempt to fight back to perserve their culture, protect their lands and defend their families is portrayed by (certain/many) Turks as somehow the Armenians initiating hostilities and violence against Turks. Now I ask - did Armenians move into areas of Turkish population - taking their homes - overwintering their nomadic herds - raping their women - imposing impossible (and multiple) taxes - (delibertly) making it impossible for Armenians to live without fear and with their dignity. Did Armenians do these things? Please - we know the history. Were Armenians raiding towns and villages and taking away women and anything else they wanted - no it was Kurds encouraged by the ottoman State. Were Armenian overlords and Valis squeezing Turks to the bone and suppressing any protest or dissent with vilonce and massacre? Do you deny this history Hitite? (BTW your use of "Hitite" for your moniker is another indication of Turks usurping the heritage of others).

So when some Armenians began to organize and fight back - or when they apealed to outside redress after many years of apeals to the Sultan that fell on deaf ears - well then what do you expect. Even with the rise of some Armenian counter-violence we still see that such pales by comparson to that being enacted against Armenians during the very same time. And then of course - we witness the rise of even more reactionary, xenophobic and racist leadership among the Turks.

And even when it seemed that the progressive elements within the CUP had common cause and sympathy for the plight of the oppressed Armenians - it was Turks who clearly "backstabbed" and acted against Armenians - it was Turks who had the oppurtunity to end the cycle of violence - but instead they escalated it terribly and what we witnessed was the results of an incredibly asymetry of power and the depravity of the most vile of intentions that was born down against the Armenians and resulted in our destruction. And you have the gaul to bring up (minor instances) of atrocites against Turks by a handful or revelutionary Armenians seeking justice for the continued and omnipresent persecution of their people. And when most Turks decry all the massacre commited (by Armenians) against the Turks do you understand the context and timing of these acts and who commited them? The vast majority of such took place after the bulk of the Armenian Genocide had been accomplished. Armenians from the East and those from Anatolia who managed to escape and who were quite aware of the devestation brought on against their people and families and villages by the Turks did seek out revenge - and who wouldn't? SO spare us the tears for what your people brought upon us all.

The same is true regarding the Greeks. In 1913 the CUP began their program of intense nationalization of the Ottoman economy - and this meant taking from Greeks and Armenians and dispossessing them of their properties (and lives - ie ethnic cleansing). Using paramilitary front groups such as the Turkish Hearth society, the Society for National Defense, Turkish Strength, and other similar organizations - these highly racist Turkish elements began seizing and or destroying properties of Greeks in the Aegean region and killing and driving them from their homes. The Turkish army also rounded up Greeks and placed them in labor battalions - entire towns and regions were cleansed of Greeks. In his memoirs the Turkish paramilitary commander Kushcubasi Eshref personally claimed to have deported 1,350,000 Greeks form the Aegean region prior to the end of 1914! And these figures are corraborated elsewhere. And according to other Ottoman sources up to 500,000 Greeks were killed in the Aegean region alone! (These figures were reported in 1918 in the Ottoman Parliment) - so these are not Greek or foreign estimates - these figures are by the Turks themselves. And this is in addition to the (again Turkish) reported figure of 550,000 killed in the Black Sea (Pontus), Thrace and other nearby regions. All of this was a planned effort by the government to Turkify these regions. With all this being the case is it no wonder that the Greeks wanted the Aegean region back and out of Turkish control - with the recent track record witnessed. Is it no wonder that the Greeks troops upon retreat and defeat took out their vengence? How many of them had lost families or were from the very areas that they now knew to be lost to them?

Now I understand that Turks and Muslims also suffered due to collapse of the Ottoman Empire (where Turks were expelled from regions where they had lorded over conquered populations) and because of Russian expansion (and I won't make apologies for Russian actions which were often draconian and atrocious) - I don't deny this. But for a Turk to dismiss responsibility for the atrocities commited against Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians by claiming that these groups somehow had perhaps brought it on themselves through violence against Turks is just too much. So again I wish to tell you to F off in this matter with the greatest amount of heartfelt scincerity and indignation on my part. Really now - trying to justify the destruction of my people and of the Anatolian Greeks by claiming that we were responsible for Turkish deaths and no one cares - etc - really now - I really don't think so....

[Joseph]

Exactly - this is what I was going to say until I saw you already said it.

This claim of atrocities commited against Turks by Armenians as some sort of counter to the Armenian Genocide and the prior persecution, massacre and predetory behaviors by the Ottomans and their Kurdish lackys is rather absurd. The Ottoman Empire pursued a policy of deliberate (violent) harrasment and disenfranchisement of the Armenian communities of the East since the late 1800s and early 1900s. They deliberatly sought to wrest these areas from Armenians through various - often violent - and certainly degrading and inhumane pressures. That this might inspire some Armenians to attempt to fight back to perserve their culture, protect their lands and defend their families is portrayed by (certain/many) Turks as somehow the Armenians initiating hostilities and violence against Turks. Now I ask - did Armenians move into areas of Turkish population - taking their homes - overwintering their nomadic herds - raping their women - imposing impossible (and multiple) taxes - (delibertly) making it impossible for Armenians to live without fear and with their dignity. Did Armenians do these things? Please - we know the history. Were Armenians raiding towns and villages and taking away women and anything else they wanted - no it was Kurds encouraged by the ottoman State. Were Armenian overlords and Valis squeezing Turks to the bone and suppressing any protest or dissent with vilonce and massacre? Do you deny this history Hitite? (BTW your use of "Hitite" for your moniker is another indication of Turks usurping the heritage of others).

So when some Armenians began to organize and fight back - or when they apealed to outside redress after many years of apeals to the Sultan that fell on deaf ears - well then what do you expect. Even with the rise of some Armenian counter-violence we still see that such pales by comparson to that being enacted against Armenians during the very same time. And then of course - we witness the rise of even more reactionary, xenophobic and racist leadership among the Turks.

And even when it seemed that the progressive elements within the CUP had common cause and sympathy for the plight of the oppressed Armenians - it was Turks who clearly "backstabbed" and acted against Armenians - it was Turks who had the oppurtunity to end the cycle of violence - but instead they escalated it terribly and what we witnessed was the results of an incredibly asymetry of power and the depravity of the most vile of intentions that was born down against the Armenians and resulted in our destruction. And you have the gaul to bring up (minor instances) of atrocites against Turks by a handful or revelutionary Armenians seeking justice for the continued and omnipresent persecution of their people. And when most Turks decry all the massacre commited (by Armenians) against the Turks do you understand the context and timing of these acts and who commited them? The vast majority of such took place after the bulk of the Armenian Genocide had been accomplished. Armenians from the East and those from Anatolia who managed to escape and who were quite aware of the devestation brought on against their people and families and villages by the Turks did seek out revenge - and who wouldn't? SO spare us the tears for what your people brought upon us all.

The same is true regarding the Greeks. In 1913 the CUP began their program of intense nationalization of the Ottoman economy - and this meant taking from Greeks and Armenians and dispossessing them of their properties (and lives - ie ethnic cleansing). Using paramilitary front groups such as the Turkish Hearth society, the Society for National Defense, Turkish Strength, and other similar organizations - these highly racist Turkish elements began seizing and or destroying properties of Greeks in the Aegean region and killing and driving them from their homes. The Turkish army also rounded up Greeks and placed them in labor battalions - entire towns and regions were cleansed of Greeks. In his memoirs the Turkish paramilitary commander Kushcubasi Eshref personally claimed to have deported 1,350,000 Greeks form the Aegean region prior to the end of 1914! And these figures are corraborated elsewhere. And according to other Ottoman sources up to 500,000 Greeks were killed in the Aegean region alone! (These figures were reported in 1918 in the Ottoman Parliment) - so these are not Greek or foreign estimates - these figures are by the Turks themselves. And this is in addition to the (again Turkish) reported figure of 550,000 killed in the Black Sea (Pontus), Thrace and other nearby regions. All of this was a planned effort by the government to Turkify these regions. With all this being the case is it no wonder that the Greeks wanted the Aegean region back and out of Turkish control - with the recent track record witnessed. Is it no wonder that the Greeks troops upon retreat and defeat took out their vengence? How many of them had lost families or were from the very areas that they now knew to be lost to them?

Now I understand that Turks and Muslims also suffered due to collapse of the Ottoman Empire (where Turks were expelled from regions where they had lorded over conquered populations) and because of Russian expansion (and I won't make apologies for Russian actions which were often draconian and atrocious) - I don't deny this. But for a Turk to dismiss responsibility for the atrocities commited against Greeks, Armenians and Assyrians by claiming that these groups somehow had perhaps brought it on themselves through violence against Turks is just too much. So again I wish to tell you to F off in this matter with the greatest amount of heartfelt scincerity and indignation on my part. Really now - trying to justify the destruction of my people and of the Anatolian Greeks by claiming that we were responsible for Turkish deaths and no one cares - etc - really now - I really don't think so....

Bravo!

[Steph]

Well done 1.5. Bravo!

[Panos26]

Really Panos, most reports of these times support and agree with 1.5's position.

Pontic, Aegean coast, Inner Anatolia and Constantinople, Eastern Thrace, all areas where Greeks were deported from, mostly by that favoured turkish method of forced marches in winter, prey to the guards and local populations.
Most, if not all,men of military age (16-60 probably) had been removed from their communities before and were , at best, held as hostages by the Kemalists.
1.5's numbers concur with histories I've read.

How you believe that there was an equal distribution of political power between Greece and turkey astounds me.
I don't believe Greece had the support of Italy or France at this time, more help from Great Britain, the main driving force of the League of Nations. The ARC and Near East Relief were the main providers from the States.
Again that chap Morgenthau used his humanity and political skills to try to alleviate sufferings on both sides.

Panos, where do you read your history?

I have been taught the exact things you say.Either through schooling either through life in Greece.
I am really sceptical though on the numbers.Greece was not in the position Armenia was in the 20's.
We reached the pick of our expansionism in 1920 after having officially incorporated in Greece all of Macedonia,Thrace,and a significant part of Minor Asia,the Islands(apart from the Dodecanese which we took in 1947,) Crete(1913) and almost Cyprus(1914 but we rejected the offer made by the UK).The above areas stayed in the modern Greek state for 2-3 years.

We were in a far more advantageous position compared to Armenia,which hardly existed for a couple of years back then and the distribution of power of the time indeed was equal if not more than Turkey(dont forget the the Turks were fighting their war of independence against the Greeks among many other nations of the time).
That is why Greece never officially pushed a Genocide issue against Turkey,merely bsc we knew we would have valid answers from Turkey if we ever raised an issue like that.
The pontic issue is different.No intention to nulify the attrocities commited by Turkey against the Pontic Greeks but i do question the numbers.If Greece herself didnt question the numbers,by now we would have raised a genocide issue formally against Turkey.
So comparing the Armenian Genocide which is in my mind a true Genocide to the attrocities against the Greeks commited by Turkey,has no merit.
I believe i am a level-headed Greek thus sceptical about applying the term ''genocide'' commited against Greeks in general.
Comparing Greece of 1920 with Armenia of 1920 is like comparing David and Goliath.We never in our history as a modern Greek state had annexed more land than the land we had in 1920 under the Sevres Treaty...

[notjustarmenian]

So comparing the Armenian Genocide which is in my mind a true Genocide to the attrocities against the Greeks commited by Turkey,has no merit.

IGNORANT!!!

Go read the transcripts of the Turkish Court-Martial of 1919! Go look at the documents of the Relief Committee for Greeks of Asia Minor! Go look at the archives!

Check out the link: http://www.greek-genocide.org/press.html AND http://www.greek-genocide.org/books.html

Stanley Hopkins, American employee of the Near East Relief, 16/11/1921:
“… the Greeks of Anatolia are suffering the same or worse fate than did the Armenians in the massacres of the Great War. The deportation of the Greeks is not limited to the Black Sea Coast but is being carried out throughout the whole of the country governed by the Nationalists. Greek villages are deported entire, the few Turkish or Armenian inhabitants are forced to leave, and the villages are burned. The purpose is unquestionably to destroy all Greeks in that territory and to leave Turkey for the Turks. These deportations are, of course, accompanied by cruelties of every form just as was true in the case of the Armenian deportations five and six years ago.”

F.D. Yowell, Director of the Harpoot Unit, Near East Relief, 5/5/1922:
“Conditions of Greek minorities are even worse than those of the Armenians. Sufferings of the Greeks deported from districts behind the battlefront are terrible and still continue. These deportees begun to reach Harpoot before my arrival last October. Of thirty thousand Greek refugees who left Sivas, five thousand died on the way before reaching Harpoot. One American relief worker saw and counted fifteen hundred bodies on the road east of Harpoot... Two thirds of the Greek deportees are women and children. All along the route where these deportees have travelled Turks are permitted to visit refugee group and select women and girls whom they desire for any purpose. These deportations are still in progress, and if American aid is now withdrawn all will perish. Their whole route today strewn with bodies of their dead, which are consumed by dogs, wolves, vultures. The Turks make no effort to burry these dead and the deportees are not permitted to do so. The chief causes of death are starvation, dysentery, typhus. Turkish authorities frankly state that is their deliberate intention to exterminate the Greeks, and all their actions supports this statements. At present fresh deportations and outrages are starting in all parts of Asia Minor from northern seaports to the south eastern district.”

Turkish professor Taner Akcam in a televised interview aired in 2005 stated:
"The salvation of the Turkish nation was only to get rid of the Christians from Anatolia and they developed plans at the beginning of 1913 and they implemented these plans first in Western Anatolia against the Greeks."

Johannes Lepsius, Germany missionary, 31/7/1915:
“The anti-Armenian and the anti-Greek persecutions were two stages of one and the same programme on the annihilation of the Christian element in Turkey.”

Lloyd George, British Prime Minister, House of Commons:
“… tens of thousands of (Greek) men, women and Children were expelled and dying. It was a clearly a deliberate extermination. ‘Extermination' is not my word. It is the word being used by the American mission.”

Henry Morgenthau, United States Ambassador to Turkey, in 1918 writes:
“The Turks adopted almost identically the same procedure against the Greeks as that which they had adopted against the Armenians.”

In an article titled the "Uprooting of Greeks in Turkey", which appeared in the New York Times on the 21st of January 1923 regarding the Treaty of Lausanne, Professor Silas Bent, American journalist, author and lecturer, wrote:
"Before the World War there were three millions of Greeks in Turkish territory; a million of them were killed or dispersed in 1915; a million and a half of them, since 1915, have been killed or dispersed (dispersal being the more merciless method of driving them to arid plateaus where they died lingeringly from starvation), and the events at Smyrna were still fresh before the minds of the delegates. What assurances could there be against further massacres and forcible deportations if these helpless and peaceable folk were left at the mercy of the Turk?"