Your Greek Friends Stand Beside You!

[Panos26]

My claim is that Greeks hold responsibility in the burning of Smirni.
I didnt deny the attrocities against the Greeks,Only that i dont name it a genocide.
Lastly no valid answer as to why we havent persued an international recognition of the issue.

Just one neutral source says the overall academic standing.That is what an encyclopedia is.Systematic knowledge appropriation in our quest to promot knowledge,that is why i choose to bring something neutral as a basis.So while you can provide a tone of material,the current academic standing gives a share of responsibility.If you are confident enough write to major academic institutes and discredit the current academic standing.I choose to adopt what is currently held.

Plus the attrocities against Greeks nowhere apart from Greece is decribed as a genocide.I think academia is clearly on my side on this one.

Lastly the third point is just personal opinions.

None of the three have not been nulified by your sources satisfactory.Besides most of it is politics.But none the less i can never put the Greeks to have suffered as much as the Armenians have.Our expansionism has been a vulgar one througout our modern history.Greece will be instantly rejected internationally if ever raise an issue of ''genocide'' against Turkey.

[notjustarmenian]

My claim is that Greeks hold responsibility in the burning of Smirni.
I didnt deny the attrocities against the Greeks,Only that i dont name it a genocide.
Lastly no valid answer as to why we havent persued an international recognition of the issue.

Just one neutral source says the overall academic standing.That is what an encyclopedia is.Systematic knowledge appropriation in our quest to promot knowledge,that is why i choose to bring something neutral as a basis.So while you can provide a tone of material,the current academic standing gives a share of responsibility.If you are confident enough write to major academic institutes and discredit the current academic standing.I choose to adopt what is currently held.

Plus the attrocities against Greeks nowhere apart from Greece is decribed as a genocide.I think academia is clearly on my side on this one.

Lastly the third point is just personal opinions.

None of the three have not been nulified by your sources satisfactory.Besides most of it is politics.But none the less i can never put the Greeks to have suffered as much as the Armenians have.Our expansionism has been a vulgar one througout our modern history.Greece will be instantly rejected internationally if ever raise an issue of ''genocide'' against Turkey.

Professor Hannibal Travis of Florida International University College of Law, in his paper "Native Christians Massacred" published in the Genocide Studies and Prevention journal, December 2006, writes:

"The Turks extended their policy of exterminating the Christians of the empire to the Armenians, Greeks, Syrians, and Lebanese."

"German military officers, diplomats, and civilians also witnessed the planning and execution of the genocide of Armenian, Assyrian, and Greek Christians as it unfolded."

"Absent a governmental intention to exterminate the Christians of the empire, it would be nearly impossible to explain how the massacres, rapes, deportations, and dispossessions of the Armenian, Assyrian, and Greek Christians living in the Ottoman Empire at the time of World War I could have taken place on such a vast scale."


Historian Mark Levene, in his journal titled “Creating a modern ‘zone of genocide’: The impact of nation- and state-formation on Eastern Anatolia, 1878-1923”, writes:

"By ridding themselves of the Armenians, Greeks, or any other group that stood in their way, Turkish nationalists were attempting to prove how they could clarify, purify, and ultimately unify a polity and society so that it could succeed on its own, albeit Western-orientated terms. This, of course, was the ultimate paradox: the CUP committed genocide in order to transform the residual empire into a streamlined, homogeneous nation-state on the European model. Once the CUP had started the process, the Kemalists, freed from any direct European pressure by the 1918 defeat and capitulation of Germany, went on to complete it, achieving what nobody believed possible: the reassertion of independence and sovereignty via an exterminatory war of national liberation."


Rudolph Joseph Rummel, professor emeritus of political science at the University of Hawaii, in his publication titled "Statistics of Democide" wrote:

"Democide had preceded the Young Turk's rule and with their collapse at the end of World War I, the successor Nationalist government carried out its own democide against the Greeks and remaining or returning Armenians. From 1900 to 1923, various Turkish regimes killed from 3,500,000 to over 4,300,000 Armenians, Greeks, Nestorians, and other Christians."


R. M. Dawkins, an Oxford professor of Byzantine and Modern Greek studies, stated in an article published on the 10th of September 1915 in the London Times that:

"It seemed that the aim of the Turks was now the total destruction of the Greek population."


In an article titled the "Uprooting of Greeks in Turkey", which appeared in the New York Times on the 21st of January 1923 regarding the Treaty of Lausanne, Professor Silas Bent, American journalist, author and lecturer, wrote:

"Before the World War there were three millions of Greeks in Turkish territory; a million of them were killed or dispersed in 1915; a million and a half of them, since 1915, have been killed or dispersed (dispersal being the more merciless method of driving them to arid plateaus where they died lingeringly from starvation), and the events at Smyrna were still fresh before the minds of the delegates. What assurances could there be against further massacres and forcible deportations if these helpless and peaceable folk were left at the mercy of the Turk?"


Turkish professor Taner Akcam in a televised interview aired in 2005 stated:

"The salvation of the Turkish nation was only to get rid of the Christians from Anatolia and they developed plans at the beginning of 1913 and they implemented these plans first in Western Anatolia against the Greeks."

Also, there are encyclopedias that deal with the plight of the Greeks. You may like to refer to: "Encyclopedia of Genocide and Crimes against Humanity" (Detroit: Thomson Gale, 2005)

[notjustarmenian]

You may also like to read this:

http://www.armeniangenocide.com/showthread.php?p=25424#post25424

[imported_Strabo]

My claim is that Greeks hold responsibility in the burning of Smirni.

Of all the available testimonies for the burning of Smirni, which ones form the basis of your claim ? Grescovich's testimony ? Mark Prentiss's testimony ?

Which testimonies do you consider bogus ?

Apart from personal testimonies, what do you consider as evidence ?

[imported_Strabo]

Just one neutral source says the overall academic standing.That is what an encyclopedia is.

What does the 15th Edition Encyclopedia Brittanica say about Smyrna ?
Who wrote this article for Encyclopedia Brittanica ?

These questions will show us how much of a researcher you are.

[Panos26]

The basic point is that the burning is unclear.That is enough to fuel propaganda from both parties.

Notjustanarmenian i will not do the cherry picking as you are doing and going to circles just to proove that Greeks were not responsible.The same goes for Strabo.Plus it is boring.

Regardless of what ever dream my fellow Greeks might be living in, i consider my self as unbiased and not actively trying to find Turkish responsibility to what ever happened to Hellenism in the Ottoman Empire.That is just stories so the kids can go to sleep.

The dream that we were a subject of genocide does not withstand internationally and that is why Greece hasnt raised the issue.It just continues the hate to grow between Greeks and Turks and is totally bs from the Greek side to even compare it with true genocides.

[notjustarmenian]

The basic point is that the burning is unclear.That is enough to fuel propaganda from both parties.

Notjustanarmenian i will not do the cherry picking as you are doing and going to circles just to proove that Greeks were not responsible.The same goes for Strabo.Plus it is boring.

Regardless of what ever dream my fellow Greeks might be living in, i consider my self as unbiased and not actively trying to find Turkish responsibility to what ever happened to Hellenism in the Ottoman Empire.That is just stories so the kids can go to sleep.

The dream that we were a subject of genocide does not withstand internationally and that is why Greece hasnt raised the issue.It just continues the hate to grow between Greeks and Turks and is totally bs from the Greek side to even compare it with true genocides.

And still Panos provides no evidence; well, besides from that Wikipedia article in which he believes the two British sources which don't happen to be eyewitness accounts prove shared responsibility!

Panos ignored the questions posed by Stabro and Panos ignored all documentation I provided.

Panos has been proved wrong about his knowledge on decrees on the Greek Genocide. Additionally, he claimed that outside of Greece academics don't refer to the plight of Greeks in Ottoman Turkey as genocide. When academic documentation was provided on the contrary he chose to ignore it too.

It should be noted that the burning of Smyrna is just as much part of the Armenian Genocide as it is the Greek Genocide. Countless Armenian scholars who are considered specialists in study of genocide have documented Turkish responsibility of the burning of Smyrna. Countless Turkish academics also recognise the burning of Smyrna as the work of the Turkish army. Panos ignored to look at evidence which validates this.

Panos dismisses all scholarship by Turkish, Armenian and neutral historians on the burning of Smyrna as simply propaganda, again without providing any sources. When attempts have been made to direct Panos to these sources he has ignored these offers.

[Joseph]

http://www.panorama.am/en/politics/2007/06/27/gov/

GREEK PRESIDENT SAYS TURKEY CREATES PROBLEMS BOTH FOR ARMENIA AND GREECE
Armenian Prime Minister, Serzh Sargsyan, has met with Carlos Papulias, President of Greece, who arrived to Armenia on an official visit. Government press services say Sargsyan thanked the president for Greece’s support to Armenia in many different spheres. Sargsyan underscored deeper relations with Greece especially in the context of Individual Action Plan with NATO. Carlos Papulias wished Turkey changed according to European values since he said Greece and Armenia would not have to invest in defense and security at the expense of social challenges.

Source: Panorama.am

[Joseph]

http://www.panorama.am/en/politics/2007/06/27/gov/

GREEK PRESIDENT SAYS TURKEY CREATES PROBLEMS BOTH FOR ARMENIA AND GREECE
Armenian Prime Minister, Serzh Sargsyan, has met with Carlos Papulias, President of Greece, who arrived to Armenia on an official visit. Government press services say Sargsyan thanked the president for Greece’s support to Armenia in many different spheres. Sargsyan underscored deeper relations with Greece especially in the context of Individual Action Plan with NATO. Carlos Papulias wished Turkey changed according to European values since he said Greece and Armenia would not have to invest in defense and security at the expense of social challenges.

Source: Panorama.am

I'd like to see Greeks and Armenians continue to build an alliance in all spheres: military, economic, cultural.

I have great admiration and respect for the Hellenes.

[Alexandros]

I'd like to see Greeks and Armenians continue to build an alliance in all spheres: military, economic, cultural.

I have great admiration and respect for the Hellenes.

As a Greek, every Armenian i have met has been very kind to me when i told them that im from Greece.I feel very close to the Armenians.My brothers wife is Armenian.We have a lot of things in common.As Joseph said, we should continue to strengthen our relations in all spheres.And as someone who wants to see a stronger Europe i would like to see Armenia join the European Union in the future.